Mike F

Wow - these are great ideas!! Much better than solo - I am once again amazed and humbled. Thanks! -mike

All the preaching to boys about importance of coordinating actions with your buddy and maintaining balance in canoes while in Boundary Waters this summer and -- you guessed it -- the only canoe to go over was the adults. "Check this out guys -- here's how NOT to do it!" Fortunately the camera in fanny pack was in waterproof box...

Cary, I hear you. Did your advisor have a problem due to boots not broken in? Physical fitness is definitely one of the subjective criteria we'll use. During upcoming discussion with adults, I'm going to relay a tragic story from our former SM. When he was a youth at Philmont, they had an adult advisor die of a heart attack on the trail. That was before the current weight standards, but underscores the fact they are there for a reason. Any motivated adult has plenty of time to get in shape. Problem is that we need to let people know where they stand very soon so we have to go by our perception of fitness now. We plan 5 shakedown hikes with hopes of being able to flush out any who are just not up to the challenge. We'll also work on training the adults to stay in the back to let the crew chiefs and boys learn to handle decisions. I'd love to just pick my "dream team" of advisors with good skills and attitudes, but some of our most active adults who want to go aren't at the top of that list. Hurt feelings are inevitable, but we need to avoid creating a huge rift.

Surely someone has faced this before - we have more than twice as many adult volunteers than we have slots for them. Any suggestions on how to decide who gets to go? Considering previous level of participation on campouts, etc., as the prime factor. Other subjective considerations: fitness level, backpacking experience, whether or not they went last time, general attitude (positive vs more negative), etc. No idea how to balance out the adult who is a big supporter and goes on most campouts, but can have a somewhat negative attitude. Or what about the adult who has a great attitude along with extensive backpacking and high-adventure experience, but hasn't been very involved with the troop due to work, etc.? Or the boy with a very slight disability and his dad who tries to do everything with him, but is in the worst physical condition of the bunch? Any way we slice it, there are going to be some very upset people and I don't want to make this decision myself. Best idea we've been able to come with so far is to convene a small group (SM, ASM, CC, CM) and basically cast ballots to rank order the candidates. Any ideas welcomed! Thanks! -mike

Per the books, SPL should appoint his staff. He'll be working closely with ASPL (and others) and they need to be guys he's comfortable with and has confidence in. Recommend this be done with SM consultation. Same thing in the Patrol -- the PL selects his APL, etc.

Some (rare) kids will naturally attack that list of requirements like a stack of pancakes after a survival weekend. We might not be able to slow them, nor do we necessarily want to, but we need to heap equal praise and encouragement on the ones who are enjoying the scenery along the way. It's OK to spend a week at camp and only come home with one (or no) merit badge. Let's hear about the hikes he took, the coyote tracks he found, the wood duck nest in the hollow tree, and the perfect target score. Similarly, it's OK to not make Eagle. He shouldn't feel like a failure if he doesn't earn it by 13 or 14 or 18. Too much emphasis on advancement gets in the way of the fun (not to mention the other 7 Methods besides Advancement). We DO send messages like this in so many subtle ways. Think about your post-Summer Camp CoH coming up. Aren't there usually some special comments made when a boy comes home with 5 or 6 MBs in the bag? If that's all we make special comment on, then the message is clear and it is heard. I dont have a clear answer these are new ideas to me. Maybe take note that Scout #2 worked on his tracking skills in an effort to locate the coyotes den. Or Scout #3 who was considered staff at the rifle range in his quest for the perfect score. Do we make a big deal about it when young SuperScout becomes our Troop's or Council's youngest Eagle ever? Should we? Does this send the message that it's more important to get it very young rather than just in time? Perhaps we should just celebrate with the exceptional young man and keep the record books and comparisons out of the picture.

How about "Monty Scout and the Holy Grill" or "Holey Bucket"? Recommend taking an evening with brainstorming crew, watch the movie, get a big pad of paper and start the ideas flowing. It will be great! Will the events have renaissance theme, too? Looking forward to hearing more -- sounds like fun!!

I'd much rather see an active scout come sliding in under the wire of his 18th birthday instead of a young Eagle who punches the ticket and drops out soon after. In my opinion, the boy who invests the bulk of his teen years (out to 17 or 18) as an active scout gets much more out of the program as a whole, even if he never reaches Eagle. On a related note, I had the opportunity to speak at an Eagle CoH last week. Started out my talk by noting that the Aims of scouting had to do with character, citizenship, and fitness. Note that reaching Eagle is not one of them. In fact, a boy can spend his entire career as a scout without attaining the Eagle rank and still get 100% of the benefits that scouting has to offer. Moving on from that intro, I talked about the joy and pride we all share when a boy puts it all together and makes it, etc., etc. I've done a number of Eagle CoH, but never used this introduction before. It came to me while driving over that evening. After the CoH, the SM came up to me and told me I had hit a home run. There was a family there whose son had missed the wire about a year before. There were some hard feelings, but the family told SM that they finally understood and thanked him for everything he had done for their son through the years. Wow - HE does work in mysterious ways!

I agree with this train of thought that the problem of immature boys on the path to Eagle should be worked within the Troop long before he gets to his Eagle BOR. Meeting the leadership requirements for Star and Life are a good start. Expectations for successful completion of the requirement at this level should be made crystal clear. This has almost nothing to do with holding a title or wearing a position patch and everything to do with performance. Use the standard Troop mechanisms to coach him along the way. Monitor progress. But if he doesnt show satisfactory leadership during his tour of duty, this one simply doesnt go down for rank advancement credit only for experience and growth. It shouldnt come as a shock at the end the boy and adult leadership involved with him need to make expectations clear and he needs feedback as he progresses. Ive never seen a Scout give significant static when denied leadership credit he knows he didnt meet expectations. (Wherever possible, recognize the improvement he did make, talk about the lessons he learned for next time, etc. Help him learn and grow from the experience. And recognize he may be in shock this may be the very first time someone tells him he didnt meet a performance standard. If done right, it will be good for him.) Parents, however, are a different story thats where youll get the grief. If you see a problem coming, its a good idea to have a talk with mom or dad early in the process. With a little luck, theyll be as mature as their son, but dont bet on it.

Great idea! Along similar lines, I like to get more protein in the evening meal than standard Philmont and other freeze-dried fare usually have. Those little flecks of so-called chicken in the rice are hardly enough to help rebuild the muscles Ive been tearing down all day. Since I get tired of chewing so much jerky, Ive started carrying protein bars or ready-to-mix lo-carb protein shakes in packets.

Lots of good input above. Our local canoe training team swears by the big buckets, although I haven't used them (yet). Get ones with big o-ring seal, if you can find them. Whatever you use, recommend testing to be sure water-tight before trusting completely. Take to swimming pool, submerge completely and look for stream of bubbles. Clothing - avoid cotton, especially pants. Discount outdoor stores have nylon pants with zip-off legs for about $20. If guys get the ones with mesh liner, they can wear them like swim suits (i.e., no cotton briefs that stay wet all day). Shirts like Body Armor are great under PFDs (life jackets). Hats with brim all around - sun is brutal. Sunglasses - with strap, if not the wrap-around type. Cameras - waterproof disposable. If taking good camera, invest in a good camera dry box (REI, etc.) Travel very light. Don't need clean change of clothes every day. Recommend a complete gear check before going. Leave extra stuff in cars. Take a careful look at crew gear - can share toothpaste, etc. Duct tape is essential! Seal leaks. Make bandages (dot of antibacterial goo on cut and tape right over it - stays on when wet) Gloves - I use a $4 pair of gardening gloves (cotton with little rubber dots) with the fingers cut off. Extra snacks - for mid-morning and mid-afternoon. Canoeing is hard work! Drinks - consider some powdered Gatorade or lemonade. Not essential, but sometimes helps keep the guys hydrated. Water purification - if filtering, consider a pre-filter to keep some of algae and silt from clogging main filter. Some use coffee filter material held in place around water intake with rubber bands. Take extra filter cartridges or iodine. Dry shoes for camp. Consider foot powder, but probably not required for short trip. Folding saw lighter and easier to use Crew gear put a bunch of the crew gear that will get common use during day or in camp in an old gym bag and keep available in one of the canoes. Items that go in here: Toilet paper (double wrapped), small plastic shovel, water purification (filter or tablets), duct tape, first aid kit, sunscreen, some rope/cord, etc. Fishing - consider fish a bonus - don't count on catching them to make a meal. All hooks off poles before they go into canoes. Tie all poles in a canoe together to reduce clutter. Don't need full tackle box -- put select articles in small plastic box. Imodium As funny as it will be later, diarrhea on a canoe trip is no laughing matter. Have fun and let us know how it goes!! -mike

Ryon, That's probably the best way to do it with a troop your size. For larger troops, some prefer to use an optional method of grouping all the new guys into patrols together. This allows them to focus on the basic skills and advancement through First Class with the help of an older boy (called Troop Guide) and usually a dedicated Asst Scoutmaster. After a certain period of time (often 1 year) or upon completing First Class, they are allowed to move up into regular patrols with a mix of ages. There are Pros & Cons to this, too. Some larger troops still do it your way, but the method recommended by BSA is to keep the new guys together at first, if the numbers allow this to work.

dferon, You'll find a difference of opinion about the composition of patrols out here. No argument - the guys will almost always prefer to be grouped together with a bunch of buds the same age. Why not? That's the way they learned in Cub Scouts and they are comfortable with it. Be aware - there are pros & cons. Worst is that leadership of peers is probably the most challenging of situations and generally requires more control from outside the patrol. I won't go into more here, but there are a lot of other threads on this subject. One titled "Single age vs mixed age patrols" can be found under "Open discussion - Program." (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=32525#id_32532). Good luck!

About the only way to ruin a cast iron dutch oven is to get it good and hot, then dump cold water on it. The resounding "crack" can be heard to the far side of the largest of campsites. Aluminum dutch ovens can be melted with fire that's too hot as some of our guys found out while heating on a propane "volanoe" burner to burn the crust out. Crust came out OK, but melted a 4" hole right through the dang thing. (I never liked cooking in it anyway - heat doesn't distribute as well in aluminum.)

We also pay dues ($5/month). Normal fundraisers (popcorn, Christmas wreaths, candles, etc.) - profits split 50/50 between Troop and Scout's account. This summer, we added some extra fundraisers explicitly for high-adventure trip where 100% of profits went to Scout's account. (Garage sale and car wash were winners. Cotton candy at ball park was not.) We still ran into trouble because we violated the caution above - spell out the details of how credit will be allocated in advance. Issues we had: Can adults going on the trip earn credit too? If an additional family member washes cars, does the Scout get an additional portion for their work? There are reasonable ways to justify answers either way -- problem came from not spelling it all out in advance, so folks made assumptions. We finally had to take it to Troop Committee for a ruling after the fact. Very poor form...

We use "Thorns & Roses" for reflection at the end of our campfire on Saturday nights. Everybody takes a few seconds to tell their worst and best experience on the campout. After doing this for a while, it's really rewarding to see how the kids are looking at things differently. For example, they might (rightfully) say the rain shower in the late afternoon was a thorn, but the way they figured out how to cook dinner anyway was a rose. Leaders are always on the lookout for teamwork to praise as a legitimate rose. Getting to a campsite late due to car trouble might be the thorn, but the teamwork led by the older boys in getting camp set up in record time -- including helping several first-time campers with tents fresh out of the box -- were a rose that got special praise. (Adults weren't the first to bring this up -- one of the new guys said it first.) On campouts, we also always have a few special trinkets for a quick awards ceremony on Sunday morning as we close down camp. Trinkets include things like small flashlights, knives, hats, candy, etc. (Most from Dollar Store.) We recognize things like Honor Camper, Scout Spirit, Teamwork, etc. I've been involved with a lot of different troops through the years. This one has the best overall attitude I've ever seen. Boys respond positively to positive praise.

red feather -- can you tell us more about how you used the sulfer powder? (I've heard about dusting it around ankles to stop ticks, but never more general use.) Good idea about keeping a Troop map with notes for the future!! Dale -- Lessons Learned in work -- I'll get them to you! -mike

We just got back from Boundary Waters and I wanted to get our two crew chiefs a special belt buckle, but was disappointed to find they don't offer them. (I thought they used to, but it's been a few years since I was up there.) Any ideas on finding something like this? (I've already sent email to trading post manager to recommend such a buckle -- young staffers on duty last week were too overwhelmed by crowd to take any notes on the subject.) Thanks in advance. -mike

We're back! Outstanding trip!! Mosquitoes weren't much of an issue until the last few evenings due to low rainfall earlier in summer. We did get a bit of rain every day and one spectacular thunderstorm/hail storm which interrupted a big fish fry (had 16 walleye, sm mouth bass, and pike) -- only got to eat about half of it, but our neighborhood bald eagle was delighted at the offerings left on a rock the next morning. Only significant injury was some pretty good slashes when an enthusiastic angler discovered a Leatherman tool isn't quite long enough to extract a Daredevil lure from deep in the throat of a 27" pike. As for question about why the outfitter -- we were forced to -- by the time our plans started coming together, Sommers was full. Absolutely no regrets. Cost was comparable - we saved 15% by starting and ending in mid-week. Equipment and food was good. Service was outstanding. Before heading up, I talked to outfitter about the make up and interests of our crews. When we got there, he had maps ready with lots of extra info on primo campsites and fishing locations marked. We launched from public ramp about 50 yards from Sommers -- once you're in the water, you're in the same wilderness, so no issue there. We had experienced Boundary Waters members on both teams, so felt fairly confident we could pull this off without guides taking the place of a boy on each crew. It's true that a guide could have helped answer a few questions and help us improve efficiency on portages, etc., but it was a great feeling to accomplish the adventure on our own -- just our guys and our resources. (And with a rented satellite phone in the bottom on the pack -- just in case...) Eagle90/Dale -- John says Hi and is looking forward to seeing you next summer. OneHour -- are you in the Houston area? I'm planning to put together a slide show and some info for Roundtables, Chapter meetings, etc. I'm also compiling some of our Lessons Learned for next time. (There will definitely be a next time!) -mike

Eagledad/Barry - we're flying, or I'd be asking about bedding down in your scout hut or backyard! Got some good rates on Frontier - $265 round trip to Minneapolis, then rental vans from there. eagle90/Dale - I'll do that - just put note in envelope with check, so I won't forget. And I'll let him know you were the first to recommend NCCO (but not the only -- the word's out). Do you get a finders fee? I'm bringing a book of Robert Service poems -- boys are gonna get some culture while I've got 'em where they can't run!

We have two crews leaving for Ely on Tuesday and everybody is really pumped. Can't wait to get the guys on something besides Houston area bayous! We're working through North Country Canoe Outfitters, John Schiefelbein, thanks to the reference from this group. So far they have been outstanding! I'll let you know how it goes.

Yes! Outstanding!!!!

yarrow, I agree. Got on a rant that eventually stumbled around this topic a while back -- won't repeat, but you read about it here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=18739#id_18739 We're going back to mixed age patrols in the Fall. It's been an uphill struggle with lots of switchbacks, but I think we're almost there. Key to winning folks over was checking out other troops in area that are using mixed age and having some good discussions about the details of how things are working. Good luck!

Bob White, In response to your question: "I have to ask where the idea that the venture patrol is a program change within unit comes from. The Venture Patrol is a standard part of troop operation." SM Handbook, page 142, first sentence under heading VENTURE PATROLS: "A Venture patrol is an optional older-boy patrol..." Some may opt to use them. Some may opt not to. Neither is wrong - it's optional. If you're currently structured one way and plan to change, it's a change to the program that needs full discussion and buy-in at all levels. I have boys in two different troops - one has Venture patrols and other doesn't (they have occasional special activities for older boys instead). They're both working to keep older boys interested - older boys get to do some exciting stuff without younger ones and the younger scouts look forward to the day when they can join in. The advantages of Venture patrols have been discussed - I don't disagree. But there are pitfalls. Eagledad and others have touched on most that come to mind. Maybe we should start a separate thread, "Ideas for Making Venture Patrols Work"? btps, You started this as an idea to keep the older Scouts active. Later you mentioned that your troop is not really a camping/hiking troop. Maybe that's really the source of your problem and solution - don't give up hope there - it can be changed. My brother recently took over a troop that didn't have much of a camping/hiking program either. Initial efforts were resisted - mostly by other adults. He persisted and they started out with less than 20% of kids in attendance. But they had fun and talked it up. After a year, the boys are all getting out there and some new adults have stepped in to help. (They were bored with old program, too, but just stayed out of the picture.) Now they're planning a major troop activity in New Mexico next summer. Maybe if your troop meetings revolved more around planning and learning skills they'll be using at the next campout, they'll all be more interested. One idea I saw used many years ago was a special PLC training campout - emphasis was on developing skills in map/compass, cooking, hiking, and camping in general. Leadership topics were served up around the campfire along with some hot cobbler - the first these boys had ever seen. Boy leadership was then energized with lots of new ideas to pass on to their patrols and we were on our way to raising the interest and skill level in the whole troop.

Two comments and a consideration: First - a change in Troop structure to use the Venture patrols equates to a change in the execution of the program. Not unreasonable to have Troop Committee buy-in. Second - the pitfalls of pulling the experienced boys out of regular patrols are right on. We've been moving our guys out of regular patrols and into Venture when they began High School and troop leadership has been going downhill every since. We're probably going to delay move to Venture Patrol until at least the Sophmore year and maybe Junior. A sister troop in area has had same problem and recently dissolved Venture Patrols - expanded regular patrols back to more traditional models - and are much happier. Consider option to just provide occasional high-adventure opportunities for older boys without regard to regular patrol affiliation. They'll get together, plan a rafting trip, etc., have a blast and come back to their regular patrol charged up with exciting tales and experiences to share.