Mike F

I don't have my SM HB with me, but I'm almost certain Troop Guides are an exception -- they are appointed by SM. Success in my son's troop last night -- After electing all positions for years, they actually followed the book!

Proud Eagle and others, We think alike -- grouping by skill and interest, and giving the scouts a major input, has always worked well in the past. What we have going on now is a push within troop to get wider ranges of ages grouped together in patrols and creating an understanding that part of the responsibility of the older guys is to help out the younger. This philosophy is being transferred to the Philmont crew selection. I'm strongly inclined to give the guys a break and let them group up as they'd like. This is clearly what the older guys want to do, but the younger/smaller ones (and their parents) are leading the cry to force us to create 3 equal crews with mixed ages/skills. Previous replies to this thread supported options other than mixing, but we haven't heard from anybody who used a mix. Has anyone intentionally mixed them up? Would you do it again? What were the problems? What were the benefits? Although they didn't have a choice, we could gain insights from anyone who took a single crew to Philmont which consisted of scouts age 14 - 17. BTW - We just got back from our first shakedown trip. Left home early Saturday, drove to state park, hiked 8 mile loop around a lake, and camped by cars. About half had never done any backpacking. It was cold and there were some problems, but the guys had a great start. For temporary crews, we picked 6 of our most experienced guys and told them to figure out who would serve as the weekend Crew Chiefs and Assistants. We them lined the rest of them up by height and had them number off 1-2-3-1-2-3... All the 1's in crew 1, etc. We stopped for training activities during the day and the older boys were coaching the less-experienced. But the older boys were clearly frustrated by the end. (NOTE: We told them these crews were for the weekend only. After this first excursion to give everybody their initial introduction, we'll be breaking up into permanent crews and all future activities will be done by Philmont crews.) It was a cold and muddy weekend, but we're all getting excited. Sure helped to stop near the cars where some Dutch ovens and cobbler fixin's were stashed! Thanks again for your insights!

Hi, gang! I always get such great ideas and insights from y'all, so here's another one without a clear right or wrong answer. I'm leading group of 3 crews to Philmont this summer. About 1/3 are age 16-17, a 1/3 age 15, and a 1/3 age 14. About 7 of the guys have high-adventure experience from our Boundary Waters trip last summer. I see several options for splitting the guys into crews: 1. Observe how they naturally group up during our first shakedown hiking campout this weekend and let the crews form on their own - adjusting numbers as needed. 2. Try to group them by physical ability and skill. This would give the big, strong guys the opportunity to go for one of the strenuous treks if that's what they decide they want to do. And would allow the smaller guys to have a trek that fits better with their current age and capability. 3. Intentionally group them to mix size and skill so the stronger can help out the weaker. We have already talked about this some. Adult advisors have mixed opinions. Older boys have stated strong preference for being grouped together, but the younger guys want the older ones there to help them out. I have always assumed skill-based groups in the past. Your thoughts? Thanks in advance. -mike

eisely, Where did you get this excellent piece? I can hear fighters from Ellington Field's 147th (still in operation today) taking off over my house as I type (really). This one should definitely be in the local papers, if not national! -mike

I helped out with an AOL/Crossover ceremony a couple of years ago with a lot of undecided/no Webelos and I think we made it a success. About half the Webelos had selected a troop and were definitely joining one of 3 local troops. The SM, SPL, and another scout or two from each troop were at the other side to greet them. The undecided/no Webelos were greeted by a collection of ASMs and scouts from different troops and they got a heart-felt, warm greeting with loud and clear invitation to come back for another visit to see how much fun we're having. The guys were having so much fun talking about exciting activities that the parents eventually wandered over. The troops had information packages to hand out. Over half of the undecided/no Webelos joined troops in the next few weeks. I can certainly understand the trail that stops before crossing the bridge, but if the Cub/Webelos leaders don't want to embarrass any guys by leaving them behind, this is a way to take advantage of the emotion/excitement of the event to try one more time to capture their interest.

Great ideas! Thanks to all!! Good comment about adults wanting to support the troop -- that is the case, although we have a fair number active at District, too. Our Troop Committee is somewhat understaffed. We'll be trying to convince some to move over, but most want to be Assistant Scoutmasters and work with the program. -mike

One of the troops I serve has an interesting problem what to do with too many willing adults. Were a very large troop and recently embarked on a major overhaul of the program to get the scouts back in the role of actually running things. After a lot of hard work and training, its starting to really take off. It has actually reached the point where the scout leaders will ask us disruptive adults to leave the meeting room. (Lets hear a rousing chorus of hip-hip-hoorays!) The problem now is what to do with all the extra adults. Until about 5 months ago, adults ran everything from the 1YR program, to discipline, to meetings and campout activities. We have several ASMs (SAs) working as coaches with groups of scout leaders, but not everybody has an assigned job, so they hang around the perimeter griping about the scouts inefficiencies and noting how they could do it better. We have to continually remind them that of course adults could do it better, but thats not the point. The question for you: How would you make use of extra trained, motivated adults to help support the program without getting in the way of the scout leaders? In a brainstorming session with the SM today, we came up with a few ideas: Develop and implement a training program for the Instructors so we could ensure they were really ready to lead troop training events. Do the groundwork on future high-adventure and special activities until the scouts were ready to take over. MB counselors (outside of troop meeting time). Find new places to camp (preferably some unimproved land non-BSA, non-park) Looking forward to your thoughts!

I dropped out after 6 months - primarily because of some out-of-control bullys in the troop. Troop was at a tough time with temporary acting SM. My former Webelos leader, who had become SM of another troop, wouldn't let me go. He was always on the lookout for me at the neighborhood swimming pool, etc., and talked to me about going back to give it another try - he had heard it was getting better. What I didn't find out until many years later was that he had numerous discussions with other people, too. He spent time with my troop leadership to help them see the problems and fix them. He also came to my house when he knew I wasn't there to talk to my parents. My parents still didn't know much about scouting and didn't care one way or the other, but he convinced them I needed scouting (he was right!) and together they all ganged up on me until I finally went back to find a changed troop. As a direct result of this one man's persistence, I -- and my two younger brothers -- found great joy in a lifetime of scouting throughout high school, college, and beyond. We all made Eagle and are active scouters today with sons following in our boot prints.

Welcome, T65! I'm with FB. In short, something doesn't smell right. I'd invite him to participate in the troop program, but no way would I talk about his next rank advancement until HE arranged to get a copy of his records sent from his old troop. I would also request a point of contact with the old troop -- preferably the SM. (I hope Im wrong, but I wouldnt be surprised if he found another new troop to join. And Id give the other local SMs a heads up.)

Sorry for fanning the flames in an old discussion, but I'm confused. When we discussed a Winter Camp that awarded MBs that we know for a fact were not completely earned (they skipped some requirements), I was told that the troop couldn't overturn the signature of the approved, certified MB counselor. (There was other discussion about how the troop could work with the guys to help them complete everything for their own conscience and integrity, and how we should go about reporting the discrepancy up through the chain, but the bottom line was if the MB counselor signed it, it was done.) I agree that they should use the latest requirements, but whats the difference here? If the approved counselors sign off that the MB is complete regardless of which version theyre using isnt it complete in the eyes of BSA?

We have done indoor, "lock-in" style TJLTs for a number of years and planned a TJLT campout a couple of weeks ago - to do something different. We were unfortunately hammered by some monsoon rains and our campsite was flooded, so we were indoors again. The guys were looking forward to camping with just the older troop leadership and have asked if we can have a leadership campout sometime in the near future to make up for the one we missed. I must say I was pretty disappointed in the wash-out. There's nothing like the quiet conversation around a campfire late in the evening to reflect on the day's discussions in more depth.

Kevin, This sounds like a GREAT idea!! Consider putting out the word locally that you're collecting digital photos for the project. The display will communicate your message even better if you can tell the viewers that all of these pictures were taken of local units (and scouts) in action within the last few years. Although the pictures may not all be the high quality you seek, the local relevance will make up for it. Then you can tell the kids that these scouts live right here in your neighborhood and go to your schools -- look at the fun they're having -- you could be with them. Good luck! -mike f

Maybe a good introduction to the family participation idea might be to have "Family Night" on a campout. Invite the families to come out for dinner and the campfire. They eat with their son's patrol and get to hear the tales of adventure while there's still smoke in the air and before the grime is showered away. My troop had a lot of fun doing this 30 years ago.

Mike, I cannot imagine the horror. Our prayers are with Alex's family and all who knew and loved him. -mike f

SA, You're on the right track. When we planned our Boundary Waters canoe trip last summer the adults also did most of the detailed planning, but we did get the scouts involved in the following ways: 1. We presented them a range of options and they decided on Canadian canoe trip. 2. Scout researched area and decided on the specific area they wanted to visit and came up with a list of priorities -- for them, number 1 was good fishing. 3. Several Scouts researched fishing in the area and gave us a training session on the different fish, habitats, best equipment/lures, etc. 4. When we got up there, the scout Crew Chiefs from our two crews sat down with the outfitter and together came up with an itinerary. 5. On the water, Crew Chiefs were responsible for leading the crew, navigating, and selecting options. Adults did their fair share of the daily work, then fished or read a book on a sunny rock. (I want to go back!) In hindsight, our biggest mistake in preparation was not having the crews work together more as crews before we hit the water. Our shakedown activities were done as one big group (both crews together), so the Crew Chiefs didn't have a chance to really establish their leadership role and had to learn fast later. For Philmont 04, we're changing a few things. After our first mass shakedown hike in a few weeks to determine basic capability, we'll be establishing 3 crews and selecting Crew Chiefs. From that point on, the Crew Chief will be in charge of his crew and they will operate as a separate patrol. (Not a real troop patrol - they will remain in their existing troop patrols - will just operate as a patrol whenever we're doing Philmont preparation stuff.) Each crew will have a Crew Quartermaster. We don't have all the equipment we need, so they will help us select and later train their crew on how to use and maintain it properly. We plan to have scouts prepare information and conduct crew training on different things like advanced map/compass, blister prevention and treatment, etc. For 2005, some of the scouts are already talking about "rolling our own" backpacking trip in NM or CO. With their Philmont experience under their belt, we plan to let them totally take the lead. Of all the trips, I'm most excited about this one. Best of luck and enjoy the journey!

In answer to Eamonn's original post, the need for dedicated meetings for adult leaders may depend partly on the size of the troop. One of the troops I serve is very large (some would say too large and I wouldn't argue). We were having difficulty being consistent in our approach with the scouts and are doing much better since we started having monthly Scoutmaster Staff tagups. These are part brainstorming new ideas/solutions to problems and part training. As we are working hard to move to a more scout-run troop, it is necessary to keep reminding the adults about our approach and expectations. This would best be done around the campfire, as Bob White observed, and maybe we'll get there in a year, but for now, we need to put more effort into it. Similar to KS, some of our Asst SMs have specific areas of responsibility and some are "floaters" - helping out as required. We usually have our meeting during the week prior to the Troop Committee meetings. The SM (and sometimes an assistant or two) attend those to brief the TC on our program status and to seek assistance on any concerns which come up in the SM Staff meetings (facilities, equipment, advancement, etc.). The SM also gets feedback from the committee on any concerns they have about the program and its execution. As much as I hate another regular meeting, these SM Staff meetings are very valuable in keeping us all on the same sheet of music.

I just got back from Troop Committee meeting. Sounds like some of our guys got credit for Metallurgy MB at Winter Camp, but our resident counselor in Metallurgy MB says theres no way that they could have really met all of the new (and more stringent) requirements the camp simply doesnt have the equipment. I recommended our counselor check into it, ask the scouts how they met each requirement. Then if it becomes clear there were too many corners cut, the troop in essence tell the guys they really got a partial and need to do some more work to complete requirements A & B. Some committee members said that if a certified counselor had signed it off as complete, we (the Troop) didnt have the authority to withhold the MB. (Apparently they had fought this issue on different MB a few years ago and lost.) I cant believe this is accurate. Any feedback? What we decided to do was have our counselor sit down with the scouts to go over the requirements to ask how they personally met each one. If theres a problem, hell ask the guys if they really completed all of the requirements successfully and have the right to receive the MB. If they agreed they have not, hell work with them to help them complete the missing requirements. But if the guys (or more likely, their parents) insist they have a signed MB card and expect to receive the MB at CoH later this month, theres nothing more we can do about it. One entanglement: The camp was out of council, so we dont have our normal chain (District Advancement Chairman, etc.) to work through. Thanks in advance for your comments.

I just returned from a trip back home visiting family. Whenever I'm there, I always get together with a few of my best friends from scouting days, but this time I did something extra -- I went to visit my old Scoutmaster with my two Scouts. We had a great time laughing about old stories and my sons enjoyed telling him about some of their adventures. That incredible man changed my life in a hundred different ways and I'm glad I took the time to let him know his work continues today through me. If you get the opportunity, this is a great way to once again say thanks.

Eagle90, Say Hi to John at North Country Canoe Outfitters. He treated us right last summer. A sister troop is taking two crews up to see him this summer and my son is trying to figure out how to sneak in - he can't wait to go back. But most of this spring/summer is going to be getting ready for Philmont in late July. We're considering a trip down to Laguna Station on South Padre Island for the guys not going to Philmont, but still just talk. It's run by Rio Grande Council and was started by a couple of my best friends from youth scouting days. I've never been, but others in the area have enjoyed it a lot.

Eagle Foot, Do you have a son in the troop? (It didn't sound like it, but wanted to be clear.) If so - I recommend finding another troop. If not, and you like the guys and just want to help where you can, it is possible to help them change over time. It sounds like the SM might be interested in accepting changes when you can show him why they need to do so. It probably won't work to sit him down with the handbooks and show him all the things they're doing wrong. It MIGHT work to observe the problems that are the fallout of not following the program and making subtle recommendations that will gradually bring them back into line. Like FOG recommended, training for everybody would be a VERY good thing. In spite of that, you'll hear a lot of them say things like, "OK, but we don't do it that way." The training will at least give them a frame of reference when you bring up ideas about changes to help make improvements. When the leaders are drinking a cup of coffee around the campfire and kicking around problems/concerns/ideas, you'll have the setting you need to make suggestions. I've had conversations that started like this: "You know I'm not usually one to beat people up with the handbook, but this might be one of those situations where the books have a good point we ought to consider." Unless you get a change in leadership, change will be slow. Culture is a hard thing to change in any organization. And the only way for it to change is for members to recognize the need for a change. Good luck! Mike F

Dittos to what Bob White said. I can't influence things at the National level -- don't know where to start and don't have the time & energy to attempt to engage. But I can influence the Scouting program we deliver in my little corner with the hope, nay, belief, that the positive experiences will spread like ripples on a pond. As for storm clouds on the horizon - so what? We've all seen them before. Do what you always do - secure the camp and howl back at the wind.

Hey, Dave! Happy Birthday to BOTH of us! Mike "If I had known I would live this long, I would have taken better care of myself" F

saltheart, I didn't see yours while I was taking too long to write. Right on! -m

Chippewa, By the book, I think your former SM is right. In SM Handbook, pg 157, it says TC selects quality leaders for the troop. (It also says on pg 156 that the CO has final approval of any adult leaders.) I'm not sure it's written, but the SM should also have a say in his ASM staff, for obvious reasons - you must be able to work closely with these people. I don't think your honorary ASMs necessarily cause you any problem, but you do need to get some active ones on board. Start by talking to CC. See if there are any TC members who might better serve as ASMs. If you find some candidates there, one or both of you could ask them to consider. Also take a look at your troop roster to see if you find any other parents that stand out as candidates. Although technically a TC responsibility, I would suggest being involved in doing your own recruiting. I have found that a lot of parents are interested in helping once they are asked and understand what is expected. In a lot of troops the distinction between SM staff and TC members is blurred, but in general, the SM staff is responsible for the troop's program and the committee supports it (more in the background). We have a very large troop and a lot of ASMs. Most importantly, the SM needs one or two ASMs that are ready to step in and take the SM's place at a meeting or campout if the SM can't make it. Other ASM positions we use: High-Adventure -- this guy works with our ASPL for Hi-A to plan and carry out activities for older scouts. OA Rep -- works with Scout OA Rep in troop to promote our participation in OA activities. (We recently formed our own ceremony team - the guys are loving it.) Staff Support -- this ASM supports the SPL in working with troop staff positions, like Scribe, Historian, etc. Skills -- this ASM works with our ASPL for Skills and his team of Instructors. Leadership -- we have 3 ASMs that are dedicated to working with ASPLs and PLs to coach them on leadership. In essence, we have a Scoutmaster Staff that mirrors the Scout staff to keep an eye on things and train/guide/coach as required. Our biggest challenge is to not get TOO involved - we must stand back and let the boys lead. SM has made it clear our objective is to work ourselves out of a job and into the camp chair by the fire. Good luck!

Part of it is also the level of commitment from parents and leaders to make it work. My two Boy Scouts are active in sports and one's in band. Fortunately their leaders encourage the boys to come when they can and praise their dedication when they show up in sweaty practice clothes for the last half of a meeting. With that kind of support, the boys feel good about what they're doing and usually even remember to put their uniform in the van so they can change on the way over. Last Saturday was a good example. #2 son's troop was on a campout, but his school basketball team was playing in a tournament. He was insistent he didn't want to miss the night navigation exercise they had planned, so after the last buzzer, we grabbed our packs and drove 1.5 hrs to join the troop. He was exhausted on Sunday, but grinning from ear to ear. #1 son has had a passion for basketball since he was 2 years old (literally). We've done our best to balance it, but in his mind, b-ball always came first. Somehow his leaders and I have managed to keep him involved and this year - his Junior year in High School - he didn't make the team and is turning into one of the strongest leaders in the troop. (In a way, I think he's relieved to be focused and he's definitely excited about the influence he is having on the direction of the troop.) Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out so well - even in my house. Since I'm committed to working with the older sons and their troops, She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO) has the lead role right now working with #3 son, a Tiger. After some pretty lame meetings this Fall, it's looking like the combination of church choir and basketball is going to take priority this year, but we'll figure out a way to make it work next year - including hunting around until we find a more active group. (I think part of the problem with Tigers is that parents are required to be active participants with their son. With that age group, I doubt they could do it any other way, but it's a definite drawback in my house where we don't always have an extra 1.5 hrs a week.) I guess I just reinforced a point made over and over on these forums: #2 son made the extra effort to get to his campout late because he was excited about what they were doing. "It's the PROGRAM, stupid!" #3 son & SWMBO aren't willing to make the extra effort because they thought meetings were boring. #1 son followed his sports passion for a while, but sees the extra time to give to Scouts now as a benefit of not making the team and he's having a blast helping to drive that program for the troop. Kids aren't thinking about scholarships - they want fun, excitement, challenges, and recognition. Leaders can encourage their sports/band players for their extra effort when they make it. Enough of my little story. We need to do a better job locally of getting the word out about the great fun and adventures the Scouts are having. I had ideas about sending some pictures and an article to the local paper about our Boundary Waters canoe trip last summer, but never followed through. Some positive local press like that could help offset some of the other national negative press. Since I only thought and didn't turn ideas into action, guess I'm part of the problem... Guilty as charged.