Mike F

1Hr, Where'd you find the Guidelight for $40? -mike

fotoscout, The mental image of your pink and powder blue boots froze me in my tracks... BTW - I'm sitting here in my boots right now. Wearing those babies every day! The guys at work are getting used to my clomp-clomping around the office. -mike

I'm an Engineer and veteran with multiple degrees and many years of notable experience, yet nothing says "values" like "Eagle Scout." A prospective employeer wants to get to know the person - not just the job performance. A few years back, I was appyling for a very selective position with a lot of applicants. When I was called to come in for an interview, I discovered I had lost my copy of the application. Fortunately the personnel office was willing to provide a copy from my folder. When I got it, I noticed someone who had been reviewing my application found two items that they thought were important enough to highlight by underlining them - one was Eagle Scout. I got the job.

KS, VERY well said!! -mike

I'm gearing up for a NOLS trek soon and got this info from them. Thought it might be useful. They have a lot of experience outfitting folks for some really rugged use. -mike Proper Boot Fitting (from NOLS enrollment package) Having good footwear is necessary for success Please follow these instructions carefully when fitting hiking boots for your NOLS backpacking course. It may be helpful to show these instructions to the boot fitter. Your hiking boots are one of the most important pieces of equipment you will use during your course. For this reason, please travel to your course with them on your feet or in your carry on luggage. It is imperative that boots fit correctly to minimize the chance of blisters or other foot injuries. Its all in the fit In our experience, we have found that a properly fitted boot is more important than a broken in boot. Much has been written and many people still believe the myth that break-in period is important. Its not as important as finding boots that fit. If you are purchasing boots prior to your course, see the list of recommended boots. If a particular boot you like is not on the list, it should be comparable in design and construction to those listed. 1. It is best to shop for boots in the afternoon since feet tend to swell during the day. Always fit your larger foot. The key to a proper fit is to determine the correct length. A boot that is too small (short) will cause more problems than one that is too large. Boots should fit comfortably with either two pairs of heavy wool socks or one pair of liner socks and one pair of heavy wool socks. Both systems work fine. Cold climate hikers often prefer the two wool sock method. This sock combination provides warmth, cushioning and wicks moisture away from the skin, helping reduce the chance of blisters. 2. Start with a boot a half size larger than your normal street shoe size and slip your foot in barefoot. Some boot shops may ask you to wear a thin liner sock. Slide your foot forward until your toes touch the front of the boot. As you lean forward slightly, there should be approximately to (about one finger width) between your heel and the back of the boot. If there is not, the boot is probably too small and you should try a half size larger. 3. Now try on the boots with your favorite combination of two pairs of socks and lace the boots snugly. Your toes should be comfortable at the front of the boot with just a little bit of room to wiggle, and the arch of the boot fitting comfortably under your instep. Walk around the store for a few minutes. Your heels should feel snug in the back of the boot with just enough room to barely lift off the insole of the boot about 1/8; no heel lift is too little, or more is too much. The boot should feel comfortable with no obvious discomfort or pressure points. 4. In a properly fitted boot, your toes will not jam the front of the boot when walking downhill. To determine this in the store, either kick your foot against a solid wall, or if the store has one, walk down a ramp to simulate walking downhill. If your toes hit on the first kick, or they jam on the front of the boot walking down the ramp, the boot is probably too small, or not laced tight enough. Your toes should nudge against the front of the boot on the third kick. It is important to realize that a properly fitted boot is going to feel slightly big. It is better to have a boot a bit large than too small. 5. Getting the proper fit takes time. Not all boots fit the same, so try different brands and models. Walk around the store for at least 10 minutes. Think about your feet. Are they comfortable? Any pressure points? If so, try a different width, a different brand, or a half size larger. Remember, its your feet and your comfort, so take your time!

scoutmom, Good question and one most of us struggle with constantly. In short, it's almost always easier for us to just do it for them - in the near term. But while we're doing everything for them, they're not learning to do for themselves, so they remain dependent and we always have the responsibility to keep doing things for them. Best way to help the scouts learn and grow is to at least include them in the process. As far as "not knowing what is best for them," leadership (scout and adult) needs to work together to develop a common vision for where they want to go. Once the scouts help develop goals like "Develop patrol leadership to the point where patrols can function without outside help," they'll start to tie the cause-&-effect it takes to reach that goal. Good luck! -mike

Balding Eagle, You can also be selected for the Vigil honor. You'll find lots to do in OA as an adult if you're interested, willing, and able! They probably won't let you suit up to do ceremonies anymore, but the ceremony teams always seem to be in need of support driving, etc. If you were involved in building ceremony gear, the guys would probably be happy to have someone show them how. (Just don't let them talk you into doing it all yourself!) If you were into dancing, you might find your Lodge has an annual PowWow that encourages dancers of all ages to jump into the ring. And honor camping and cheerful service never go out of style! Welcome back, brother! -mike

Good SM Minute stuff - thanks! -mike

I'm with Bob White - patrols work best when the scouts have a say in where they go and who they accept. If a scout doesn't really want to be there or they don't want him, it's very hard to generate that patrol spirit we've been talking about in other discussions. As I've said before (and would prefer not to go into a great length again), I'm not a fan of forcing scouts together into same-age patrols (beyond NSP). Having a mix of ages and skills generates a lot more opportunities for the older scouts in a patrol to teach and lead the junior members. The junior members learn leadership by example and are better prepared to effectively lead in a year or two when they are the senior members. We encourage our patrols to invite junior members to keep new blood coming in and it's working great.

Welcome, Woodsmith! And thanks for your willingness to step into the SM's boots!! Good advice from all above. EagleInKY made an excellent point - some adults are better off providing support in the background (via TC role) while some prefer to be more directly involved with the scouts (SM staff role). Or it could be that the CC asserted himself when he saw the need and would be very happy to step aside and let you take the lead. To echo the others, communication is key. Before you take over, spend some time talking to CC about troop strengths, weaknesses, goals, etc. Slowly work into discussion about roles and responsibilities. Just as we expect the scouts to use their chain-of-command (PL to SPL, etc.), we need to model that as adults. We want the SPL to visibly be "in charge" of the troop. Same goes for SM - he/she has to at least give the impression of being in charge of the adult program side of things. The scout leaders and PLC need to have one adult at the top to provide consistent guidance and support. That's not to say the other adults don't have an invaluable role - just that the SM is at the top. Best of luck! -mike

YES!

1Hour, Now I understand - wish I had more ideas, but these kinds of things depend on so many different things and personalities. I expect we'll hear more good ideas here. In the meantime, you might check in with some of the local troops you were observing at the camporee. I've visited other troops to observe them in action, then talked to the leaders. I've never met a scouter who wasn't willing to share all the things that are going right in the troop they serve - we're all in this together. I know what the books say, but it appears to me that patrol spirit - and really the application of the patrol method - is a cultural thing. By that I mean that each troop has its own attitudes and ways of doing things. If they don't think of patrols in terms of fun, friendship, identity, team work, etc. (i.e., FOG's esprit de corps), it's a difficult thing to change. I know it can be done. More ideas out there?

1Hour, Sorry - our notes crossed - I didn't see your latest when I launched mine. We're plagued by same wide range of outside activities and are currently considering reducing our total number of patrols and increasing number of members in each so we have a better chance of maintaining critical mass in each for a majority of activities. Keep up the great work! -mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Hi, 1Hour! Camporees can be a challenge, but also an opportunity. If I understand right, most of your older boys didn't go to the camporee because they attended a high-adventure activity. Allowing the older scouts to schedule an alternate activity certainly sent a message to the rest of the scouts in the troop - obviously camporee wasn't important or the older guys would have been there, too. But maybe this high-adventure activity wasn't completely optional - was this a council-sponsored event of some kind? (For example, we had a council Philmont training campout at Hamman this weekend that took out most of our guys 14 and up. Fortunately, our district camporee isn't for a couple of weeks.) If this were the case, there may not have been many good options. After puzzling over similar camporee symptoms in one troop, I've finally concluded the scouts in that troop don't like camporees because their skills are tested in public and they get embarrassed because they don't know the basics like they should. Another troop is good at the skills, but takes a beating in Patrol Spirit (usually worth 30% at each event) because their adult leaders have them convinced patrol flags and yells are for wussies. (My attempts to point out that Navy SEAL teams all have unit flags and yells fall on deaf ears.) Yet another troop uses camporees to build the troop (really patrols) up. For a month or two before the camporee they run most of their meetings using possible camporee events. This gives them the chance to beef up weak areas and get the guys ready. And they have fun with the inter-patrol competitions. By the time the camporee arrives, these guys are pumped up and ready to shine. In between camporees, keep emphasizing everything by patrol. On troop campouts, have every patrol set up their own area. If there are only 2 guys from a patrol on the campout, they still camp as a patrol. Work hard to encourage independent patrol activities. Actual meetings where they worked on advancement skills or planning would be great, but there's a lot to be said for just getting together to have some fun - go bowling, go out for pizza, whatever. These types of things build patrol friendships and camaraderie. Good luck! (I'll be looking for you at Scout Fair this weekend!) -mike

We've drifted way off CW's original question, but good discussion! CW: You have had some good advice. Talk to the guys privately and try to get them engaged. Maybe start by talking about the troop, where it's going, where they would like to see it go, and how you can work together to make that happen. If they are openly hostile or insubordinate, you'll have to get some adults to step in to explain the damage they are causing and to establish some expected behavior. Now back to the discussion about how POR's are distributed: Our previous SM made all assigned POR selections (not SPL or PLs) based on who he thought "needed" the position for rank advancement. This, of course, is not the way the program is supposed to work, but lots of guys advanced quickly - in many cases, too quickly, because there wasn't adequate training, coaching, or performance expectations. New SM is going by the book - pretty much as described my Mark9750, except we also have some ASMs working with junior leaders to support the leadership training/coaching. This change has brought up some interesting problems. Some of the older scouts who lack a POR for rank and didn't get a POR in this term, figure they don't have anything to do, so they can kick back - basically go inactive and wait (expect) to get a job next time. We've been having a series of SM Conferences with these guys to explain the program - there's lots of possible reasons they didn't get a formal POR this time. The SPL is expected to select the best available leaders for each job and he makes his assessment based on his perception of each scout's level of committment, interest, and dedication, etc. After finally getting the clue, we've had some of these temporarily inactive scouts become very active Asst PLs, etc., and they've had the chance to shine on campouts when the PL wasn't able to attend. We've also made the point that they don't have to wear an Instructor patch to instruct - when you see an opportunity to teach something to a less-experienced scout, go for it! Not all, but most are getting it. As usual, most of the bellyaching comes from parents who want to know why Johnnie hasn't been given the job he needs for the next rank. The answer is the SM doesn't assign jobs and Johnnie hasn't convinced the scout leadership (or his patrol) that he's ready for his next job. His best bet to get a formal job in the future is to be an active, engaged, positive influence in the troop program today.

In big troop (~110 members) SPL - 16 PLs (9 of 'em) - 15-17 In smaller troop (~35 members) SPL - 15 (16 soon) PLs - 13, 14, 16

pd, Glad to hear your youngest enjoyed the trip - it was one of the highlights of my youth, no doubt. Can you tell me (us) more about the one who only lasted a day due to conflicts in the crew? Was this person a part of the group before going? Did you see any signs of discord that threatened to erupt under stress on the trail? Were you able to counsel this camper (and maybe parents) ahead of time? Where there some things you thought of later that you wished you had tried to prevent this from happening? I don't mean to nitpick, but we can learn a lot from studying failures and it sounds like this camper's experience was a failure. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks! -mike

Bill R, Parents like this take some of the fun out of the job, no doubt. Good advice above. Give it to them straight and be consistent in how you handle all other scouts in the troop. Another point in getting positions of responsibility - the scout needs to either be elected by the troop to SPL or patrol to PL, or he needs to be assigned to a position by the SPL. Just because he's on a short timeline in effort to get Eagle is no guarantee that he'll be selected. His best way to get a job is to show his interest by taking part in all aspects of the troop program and stepping up to the opportunities (like Asst. PL) that help him grow, but don't count for rank credit. It's not up to the SM to provide these opportunities - it's up to the scout to impress his peers with his abilities so he gets selected. The SM has the option to assign a project for Star and Life credit, but you also have the option to set whatever standards you desire for these. Hang tough and good luck! -mike

Timing of ranks can be a problem. I know of one scout that was denied Eagle at National because one of the merit badges he had on his list for Life was completed after his paperwork said he had completed Life. Because of this, his official date for Life was reset to the completion date of his last MB. With this date reset, he didn't have the required 6 months in Life rank before he turned 18, therefore couldn't satisfactorily complete requirements for Eagle. Everything else (all MBs and project) had been completed - he just didn't have full 6 months in POR after really earning Life. An argument was put forward that adults had fouled up the records, but that merit badge wasn't complete until it was signed. Doesn't matter whether fault was with adults or scout. I seem to recall there were some other irregularities, but this was the rationale cited by National when he appealed. It's probably obvious, but this happened to a scout who was inactive for a couple of years and came back in a frenzy to finish Eagle "just in time." It's very unfortunate, but the whole issue could have been avoided if he had restarted just a couple of month earlier.

pd, "Team player" is not a phrase anyone could use to describe our scout in question because his problems appear to significantly impair his ability to interact with others - both scouts and especially leaders. Philmont also doesn't do "half treks" and it's a major disruption to pull someone off the trail once they get started. First, you have to get approval from Philmont, then the scout has to get to a location that has road access for pickup, finally, an adult advisor has to accompany the scout to Base Camp and await transportation home. Bringing dad along as an advisor is one of the options in our hip pocket, but he's not currently on our "go" list and has significant fitness issues himself. I applaud you and your guys for making it possible for getting your special needs scout to the top of that mountain. You're right - there's a difference in coping for a day (even a long one) and coping for 10 days on the trail. In some cases, I know it can be done. From Philmont staff, I've learned they have had a blind scout and a 1-legged scout successfully complete treks in recent years. But this doesn't mean every person with any possible special needs with just any crew can be successful. There are plenty of horror stories about attempts that went wrong. Moving slowly at Philmont also has some downsides that might be different from a one-day trip. The crews that move slow on the trail get to camp late and will miss some of the program activities that are scheduled for early afternoon when most crews get in to camp. The literature also warns about hypothermia - it's common to get wet in almost-daily afternoon showers and you have to keep moving to keep body temperature up. When the majority of the crew is waiting for one slow member to catch up, they get cold and it can get dangerous. Then there's also the risk of being caught at high elevation when thunderstorms roll through and you're more exposed to lightning. On a 1-day trip, the slow-moving ones always have the option of turning back when they need to. That's not an option on a multi-day trek. I will have to respectfully disagree about taking him if he's physically able. Physical ability is only half the battle. Unfortunately, the rest is harder to assess... -mike

Mrs. Smith, Welcome aboard! I, too, found these forums in desperation, looking for info. And it has been invaluable! With very few exceptions, we're all dedicated volunteers (and a few professionals) that are all doing our best in our own troops and have a burning desire to help other folks bring the best of scouting to the guys. Sometimes the official guidance is vague - apparently intentionally so to allow each group to tailor some of the details for their local situation. Sometimes there are simply options that your troop may decide to incorporate. The good folks on here sometimes get heated in the discussions, but you can see some of the pros and cons for the different ideas. Your mileage may vary, as they say. Bringing about change in a troop program is difficult. You're doing the right thing by getting into the books and taking the training. After you've read them a few times, the bits and pieces will fall into place and you'll be able to find the reference you're looking for. Without a knowledge of the books, things just decline into arguments about opinions. It's amazing how a quick reference to the books can bring a discussion onto the right track. Not every troop does everything by the letter of the books and as a new volunteer, it's impossible to force them to do so. But I've had luck by at least generating a discussion about why we have decided to ignore the published methods/recommendations. Sometimes they have a reason, but sometimes they didn't know what was in the book and are able to see the idea in a new light after reading it. SM and Committee Handbooks are a great place to start. Scout Handbook also talks some about how things should run. The SPL and PL Handbooks also have a lot of info. All the best! -mike

I'm active in two troops - a small/medium one (~35 scouts) and a huge one. Both have monthly adult meetings. The small one includes all adults and calls it a "committee" meeting. I know - that's wrong - they're confusing roles and responsibilities, but they were doing it before I got there and they continue - in spite of the education I'm trying to carefully offer. The huge troop has a "SM Staff" meeting for SM and all SMAs. It's scheduled right after the monthly PLC and before the Committee meeting. Very necessary to keep us all working to the same game plan. Includes some training each month. And occasionaly concludes in a local establishment that Eamonn would like. BTW - She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed doesn't think much of the extra meetings on top of 2 weekly troop meetings, 2 campouts a month, Philmont crew meetings and shakedowns, OA meetings,etc....

FOG, Philmont has had more adults than scouts suffer (and sometimes die) of heart attacks on the trail. Before they implemented the rigid standard, it averaged a little under one death per summer. It's now rare, but still happens on occasion. When our former SM was a scout about 30 years ago, it happened on his trek. That will sure foul up a trip for a bunch of guys. It isn't age discrimination -- it's an honest assessment of the risks. Although I haven't had reason to inquire about this one, from my other discussions I think your power lifter friend MIGHT be able to get a waiver if he provided Philmont with additional medical information (like results of treadmill cardio stress test), a doctor's written approval for the waiver, and an exercise log book to show he had been serious about preparation. But this must be worked with Philmont before arrival so their docs could consult his. And I'd have a backup advisor in case his waiver wasn't accepted. As stated, they'll never waive the max weight of 295 lbs due to rescue requirements.

I appreciate the input from everyone - even BW when he disagrees with me, because he makes me clarify my thinking and this ultimately helps me a lot. I have an answer on people being turned away from Philmont - it averages about 10 per summer with 8 of those being adults. Excess weight and high blood pressure are almost always the cause. There's no excuse for weight - the standards are very clearly established and publicized. Blood pressure does tend to increase at higher elevations. (And from traveling for a few days with van full of excited scouts...) As I've noted before per my discussions in the past week with Philmont senior staff, they do not prevent individuals with psychological or emotional problems from participating because they don't have enough information to make that decision, so it's up to the trek leaders. They also don't prevent individuals who are not in good physical condition from participating (as long as weight and bp are OK), but recommend trek leaders give this some serious consideration, too. In fact, the Director of Program related a personal story of how he allowed a scout in poor physical condition on his trek 20 years ago and regretted it very much. Scout was subject to the wrath of the crew as he constantly held them back and finally wasn't able to complete the trek - incurring additional cost for his parents to fly him home early. He specifically warned me about misplaced compassion - you're not doing the scout a favor if he really can't handle it.

Wow, eisely - I know you're proud! Our prayers go with him - may he be successful in his mission and return safely. -mike