Mike F

Eamonn - thanks - we're doing our best.

OGE - you have it right. Parents initially assumed we were discriminating because of the diagnosis. It's our job to determine if his capabilities (and ours) is up to the challenge. Scout does attend a special private school. It's a good idea to have the parents discuss it with the school, but I have to be sure they share the Philmont Risk Assessment so that's factored in. Thanks!

Philmont's words about emotional/psychological problems are not stated as a requirement - they are a warning. Philmont will allow participants with psychological disorders on the trail if the parents, family doctor, and trek leaders all agree that it's OK and they have an adequate supply of medication (if required). Since these situations require observation over a period of time, Philmont is not able to assess during in-processing. They usually only screen for the health threats that endanger your life on the trial - most importantly height/weight and blood pressure. If you're within the

NJ, Yes - it says that in Risk Advisory handout for all participants and something similar on the medical form itself. I share your hope that parents will come to the conclusion on their own, but they are very emotional about fighting for their son's right to be included. I understand and would probably be pushing the system myself if I was in their shoes. We'll just have to see how the next shakedowns go. Doctor Dad will be there, so at least he'll see first hand. Taking him to Philmont to assist his son is an option, but not a good one due to health issues of his own. (And we don't real

I'm working an issue concerning how to determine BEFORE a high-adventure trip if someone really doesn't have what it takes to be successful on that particular trek. (Details unimportant, but some in another thread under "Issues and Politics.") There are lots of sources that tell us participants need to be physically capable of the challenge, be able to take care of themselves, and need to function within the crew environment. As trip leaders, it's our job to make sure every person has a reasonable chance of success and sometimes it's a tough call. The questions for any past high-adv

Sorry, BW -- I've finally spoken directly to the Philmont Director of Program. To quote from the letter I'm holding in my hands, "Each group must carefully select participants that are capable of completing an Expedition." Sorry about the confusion about who was doing the excluding - I thought I made that clear when I wrote "...we must make allowances for him under the ADA" and "I could use some guidance on how to exclude." It was because we have raised the specter of excluding this scout that caused the parents to start making what we understood to be a legal threat. Per my discus

Update. Local council wasn't much help. They say it's up to the unit, but can't cite a reference that clearly gives us the authority to exclude if we decide that would be best. (This reference would sure be useful if anybody knows where to find it.) I'm still trying to make contact with Philmont Director of Programs for some guidance. (Missed his return call this afternoon when I was on an airplane. Dang!) I met tonight with parents, CC, and SM - I think it went as well as it could. Lots of talking to clear up multiple misunderstandings. Main point from parent's point

In addition to chaining down, you can also buy a "ball lock" which goes into the ball socket and can only be removed with a key. (OK - you can probably get it off without the key, but it will take time and make noise.) They can be found at trailer supply stores.

Backpacking preparation should include a combination of aerobic (cardio-vascular) and anaerobic (strength) training for max efficiency of your training time. Aerobic: Builds up the heart and lungs and increases your bodys efficiency at taking in and using oxygen. (Even exercising at sea-level will help you when you get to altitude.) This includes about any exercise that gets your heart rate into your training range and keeps it there for an extended period of time. Thats about 120-160 bpm for most of us. (Consult your doctor before starting.) Activities include jogging, runni

Man, am I glad you're still up and on duty, Bob White!! I can see a ray of sunlight through the storm clouds. (And I really liked your analogies.)

We're preparing to go to Philmont this summer and have run into an explosive situation. We have a scout who has a mental/emotional disability which makes it very difficult for him to interact with other scouts and almost impossible to function as a member of a crew. We have allowed him to participate in shakedown activities with a prayer that he'll learn enough coping skills to make it, but it hasn't been going well. Now his father, a medical doctor, has told us that we must make allowances for him under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I sure could use a definitive reference to ba

FOG, We think alike (scary!). What we've actually done is addressed the fact that SPL can't personally oversee such a large troop with 9 patrols, so we've divided the troop into 3 "Flights." Each Flight consists of 3 patrols who report to an ASPL. Our 3 ASPLs report to SPL. Each flight has an Asst SM assigned to oversee, assist, coach, etc. We're all meeting together right now, but working to get the Flights working more and more independently. I still don't know if this path could lead to creation of 3 really separate entities, but we're going to work in that direction for now.

I think we're splitting hairs here. In my experience in the two troops I'm currently serving, if it's disorganized, it won't be fun. It can, however, be organized and boring - then it still won't be fun. "Fun" is a valid measure of merit. Also brings in attitude of the leaders, etc. My older son is in a VERY large troop - about 110. When it's disorganized, nobody involved has any fun because the level of chaos grows quickly out of control. We're making progress on improving, but a year ago it wasn't unusual for my son to come home after a meeting saying he had just wasted his eveni

Ora, I don't have reference, but - yes - the SM can delegate the authority to sign off on Tend - 1st Class requirements. SM (or troop) can set policy and restrictions. For example, in order to sign off, the signer must be at least 1st Class and must hold an official position of responsibility (PL, etc.) in which he is trained. In both of the troops I serve, within the last year they have both gone to a system where PL is responsible for the advancement of any scouts in his patrol that are not yet 1st Class. PL has the prime authority for signoff. In some cases, Instructors can assis

We have same problems noted - no great solutions, but an idea and an insight to offer. For big-ticket high adventure trips, we have separate fundraisers where scout gets to keep 100% of profits for his account. It may be the parents pushing, but we have a lot more interest in supporting these. A couple of years ago, we took our Venture Patrols on Spring Break Ski Trip. Since this wasn't exactly my idea of the ideal scouting high-adventure trip, I insisted my son pay half the cost. He was up early and out the door heading for the lift, barely breaking for lunch - taking advantage o

Please forgive me for bumping my own message up to the active list. Hasn't anyone used (or know anyone who has) Kelty's new-fangled frame?? I am buying a new pack and am intrigued, but am suspicious of the reviews from magazines when Kelty spends so much money on advertising. Thanks!! -mike

Owl, The skeeters really caught us by surprise while backpacking in E. Texas this weekend. Luckily a few of us had small pump bottles of DEET stashed in packs. I put on windbreaker and pant legs (were zipped off) to minimize DEET required. Wish I had stuffed head mosquito net into pack - only weighs an ounce and would have saved me a lot of DEET on face/neck. Not to mention the skeeters I inhaled... Folks have talked about using some form of sulfer in an old sock to dust themselves. I forgot the details, but was wishing I had stashed some of that to give it a try. I've used Perme

Blaze, I love it!! We're going backpacking this weekend - I think I'm going to leave the tent behind and see what kind of reaction I get from the guys. (Skeeters aren't bad, yet. Fire ants could be a different challenge...) -mike f

Blaze, "our Troop quit using tents about three years ago" Wow -- I'm intrigued, but can't figure out how to make that work on the Gulf Coast with skeeters an issue about 9 months out of the year. Tell us more!

I'm considering a new Super Tioga and have option for old or new frame. Does anyone have any experience/comments on the new model with the curves built in? Thanks in advance! -mike f

We had an incident with similar overtones about 9 months ago. It was immediately reported to District. SM, CC, and COR pulled all involved scouts into room individually to get (and document) their stories. Our Top 3 then met with offending scout and parents. Because there had been previous discipline issues (although nothing of this nature), he was placed on 6 months probation and his parents were privately given a recommendation to get him counseling. Yes - this boy would definitely benefit from scouting, but our first responsibility is to ensure that the troop and patrol are a safe p

We had an incident with similar overtones about 9 months ago. It was immediately reported to District. SM, CC, and COR pulled all involved scouts into room individually to get (and document) their stories. Our Top 3 then met with offending scout and parents. Because there had been previous discipline issues (although nothing of this nature), he was placed on 6 months probation and his parents were privately given a recommendation to get him counseling. Yes - this boy would definitely benefit from scouting, but our first responsibility is to ensure that the troop and patrol are a safe p

My oldest son recently scheduled a visit with the volunteer coordinator at a regional VA hospital and came away with a number of very good options. He's working with our Eagle coordinator to refine one of them and will be turning his buddies onto the excellent lead for some meaningful projects.

We have mixed age patrols -- PL candidates must be at least 1st Class so they can sign off rank advancement for junior guys. I've also seen age requirements - both are listed as possible requirements in the handbooks. Some have participation requirements, but that gets pretty difficult to manage and I don't personally recommend it. The requirements depend on the demographics of your groups. Good luck!

Wow -- this is one of the best threads in a while! Lot's of great ideas!! We've recently started a process as follows: 1 - When PL unable to handle disruptions, he gets ASPL or SPL to assist. (SM/ASM only as a last resort or if safety/youth protection involved.) 2 - If problem persists, scout is asked to attend a post-PLC and they make sure he knows his behavior is unacceptable and they expect improvement. (Discussion documented in minutes.) 3 - If problem happens again, it's back to PLC for Final Warning. (Documented.) 4 - Next stop is SM for SM Conference. (Documented.) 5