BadenP

emb21- what you say may be somewhat true however putting together a training program and then effectively delivering it to troops in isolated rural America where the closest council was hundreds of miles away was a whole nother matter. I will agree with the literature being more plentiful and better written, training however still had a long way to go. perdidochas- sorry to hear your youth scouting experience was not very good, mine in the late 60's was excellent and indeed very different from today in both content and delivery which was my point. Bob- so were you a scout as a youth, inquiring minds want to know?

Yes Bob I know Disney puts fantasy in their movies, like many movies do, to idealize rather than mimic the reality of society or in this case scouting. It may interest you to know that the movie is based on the book God and Country by McKinlay Kantor the story of Troop #1 in Hickory, Ohio, the book starts in the year 1911. To say that scouting is the same today as it always was tells me that you were not a scout in your youth Bob, because if you were you would know that it is not even close. I applaud all scouters who can think outside the box and while following the rules can also use an original and creative methodology to bring the scouting program to their youth.

All I can say Brent is Thank God you and your ilk are not in a position of running this country because with your myopic views we would be in a full scale depression worse than 1929. Your cop out that you voted for McCain still doesn't resolve you from being a responsible citizen, what type of citizenship are you teaching your scouts anyway, if your candidate doesn't win you can moan and cry and bi-ch like a child. You don't have to like Obama but at least respect the office he will soon hold and upon whom the future of our country depends.

True it is not a scoutmaster training film Bob, but to say it has no relevance to scouting is being a bit short sighted. In the days depicted in the movie there was no Guide to Safe Scouting and the myriad of rule books that exsist today, in fact there were no real training for a scoutmaster to attend then except reading the scoutmaster handbook and half the time learning right along with the boys which the film depicts rather well. Yes today we have a total package of books and trainings for every scoutmaster that tells him everything he must do and exactly how to do it without him having to add anything of his own. IMHO, it is this lack of originality and creativity in todays scouting that is killing it. Every adult and child does not fit into the same mold, and believing as National that they do, will continue to lead to shrinking numbers and fewer volunteers. No, Follow Me Boys is not the standard of a well run troop, but it does show how one dedicated scoutmaster using his own gifts changed the lives of so many generation of boys which is very rare to find in todays scouting.

let me try to help clear up your confusion, McCain in his speech last night took all the blame for losing the election on himself for which I stated it was not his fault but that of his highly disorganized campaign election advisors. It would help if you watched or read the news once in a while, geesshh. But there again this info isn't in any scouting manual so I guess I understand why you are so confused. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

John McCain in his concession speech stated that all the blame for his loss was on him and no one else. Later a tearful Palin commented to the press that if she cost McCain even one vote she was so sorry to him and the party. McCains speech showed more of what kind of man he is than did all the debates and ads and I really felt a deep respect for him, he is an honorable man. If anyone is to take the blame it is McCains election campaign committee who did a miserable job marketing John to the people, never allowing the real maverick to shine through. Now its time to give Obama his due and lets see what the next four years REALLY does bring to the people of this country, rather than the bitter innuendo and speculation that some of the forum members are spewing. There will be another election in four years so there is no need to be so fatalistic.

With all the anger, bitterness, and contempt being exhibited in this thread and then we wonder why things can't ever seem to get done in Washington. McCain knew that only by working together, without regards to party, could we change America and talked about it constantly in the campaign. Obama hasn't even taken office yet and some of you guys are tossing out threats, criticism, and innuendo, even dictating how he is going to do his job. "I have even more respect for the office than the man who will taking that office." - Bob White. Now if that isn't a bitter, self centered, and even unAmerican statement then I don't know what is, like it or not Obama is our new president and should be shown the respect the office of President carries. You can not truly have respect for the office and make a crack like that.

Waa waa waa listen to all the crybabies, yes your guy lost and as ScoutMom said have respect for the office and the man that the majority of the people in this great country decided was the right leader for this difficult time in our history. This was an historic election with a record number of voters both brand new and long time, Republican and Democrat voting for Obama. So for all you RNUC's out there it is time to get aboard the train as your candidate suggested last night, or you can always move to Canada, eh. Reading some of the posts here makes me wonder what type of citizenship skills you might be teaching your scouts, can you say Intolerance and Bigotry. Goldwinger- to reply to your statement, the only idiotic comments I read in this forum come directly from you on just about every topic.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Man, listen to all the ultra conservatives in here whine and complain, lol. McCain lost this election over a year ago guys, his more of the same positions did not fool the American people, and the selection of Palin was the last nail in his coffin. You all watched history being made last night. The good old boy network is being dismantled piece by piece and the redneck right wing politics of old are disappearing forever. We have elected a president who will lead us into the future and not further into the past like the last eight years. The people have spoken!

Kahuna, you tell me what parts of my last post are not TRUE? They all are and you know that, the GOP has done an abysmal job for the last eight years. It is not name calling when you tell the truth. You may want to hide from it but you know it is the truth.

Kahuna We just survived eight years of an intellectually challenged president who has done nothing more than massively raise the National debt, got us involved in unnecessary conflicts, and appointed two of the worst supreme court justices in the history of the court. What are you gun toting, ultra right wing conservatives even thinking. Oh thats right you guys prefer others to do your thinking for you, just like your current leader does, lol. Obama will be a cake walk by comparison, it will be nice to see intellectualism return to DC after an eight year absence.

ROOSTER First of all I think you really should go see the movie W, it is actually a well done movie and provides some great insight into the man you so admire. Secondly, most college and pro football coachs are well educated. The war we have been fighting the last seven years was a self indulgent farce based on false intel that has backfired on the man and will leave him branded in history as one of the worst presidents of our country. You tell the families of over 4,000 dead soldiers that Bush was right and that their families sacrifice was necessary to keep our country safe. Rooster as a supposed man of God I suppose you are aware of the scripture "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.", Iraq was a ill planned offensive that has allowed our true enemies to gain new allies and territory in the jihad against our country. It is time for our country to have a leader that thinks things out logically, considering all alternatives before acting instead of one who acts rashly and emotionally like we have experienced over the last eight years. McCain lost this election not because he was not an honorable man but because he listened to bad advisors who tried to make him something he was not and forcing him to select a running mate that caused him to lose credibility with the American public. I will enjoy that victory drink tommorrow night Rooster. Cheers!

"American football is a very complicated sport." Come on Rooster get real nothing is complicated about football, unless all you have is a sixth grade education. For those under educated types, and many Republicans both football and life are very complicated. They tend to view reality and the sport as huge obstacles when in fact all it takes is logically thinking out viable solutions. The last eight years has shown just how inneffective and dangerous the Republican mindset has become driving our economy into the dust.

Rooster I just want to say that you need to see W just because it shows the side of the man the public should know about and what motivated him. It is not really an innaccurate depicition, much like his movie on Nixon. If you see it then condemn it at least you are doing so from a position of knowledge otherwise it is from a position of ignorance. As far as my theology you and I have gone round and round before and while I admire the tenacity of your belief I can not help but remember the scripture, "You have eyes but you do not see, ears but you do not hear." So we will see who is correct on the other side. In the meantime whenever anyone uses scripture to condemn someone they do not agree with they have created a God in their own image and in scripture that is called blasphemy and idolatry. Still I wish you well.

It sounds to me like some fear mongering going on in this thread by the Bible literalists in here, and those who take scripture totally out of the context for which it was written. Well guess what folks this election is all but over and Obama is going to be the next president according now to all the polls and so called political experts. So you can either run and hide for four years or come to the realization that the world is not going to come to an end because Obama is the president. So what if he gets to select two new supreme court justices he can't do any worse than the two morons W put in. Also remember Congress is there to block any real constructive change from happening, like they have the last eight years. I also suggest to all you Bush supporters to go see the movie "W", it will open your eyes to the truth about him and that truth will set you free, Alleluia!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Bob To help you understand I will give you an example of a roundtable from one of my old districts when I was a DE, no matter how hard the RT commishs tried to convince them otherwise only one or two of the attendees ever wore their uniforms to roundtable. One of my commissioners was an avid vintage uniform collector and loaned out these for the roundtable commish's to wear. The first month the attendees asked all kinds of questions about these vintage uniforms. The following month and dressed in yet another vintage uniform it was observed that about 75% attended in uniform. By the third month 100% were in uniform, without ever once mentioning proper uniforming to the leaders, instead just reinstilling in them the history, pride, and value of the BSA uniform. Never doubt the power of a visual symbol in persuading behavior.

I guess I am in an unusual council because our venturing program is thriving. Part of the problem as I see it are crews with no focus or general interest, many of them wander trying to find what to emphasize and failing to find their niche crash and burn in the first year. Our crew has an outdoor emphasis with kayaking, rafting, and canoeing added in. There is a climbing crew, cave exploring, wilderness survival, backpacking, historic trails, civil war, 3 sea scout ships, GPS crew, community service crew, etc, etc. Yet we all get together for a venturing rendevous twice a year and have a blast together. The adult and youth leaders meet every other month to plan events and support any crew having problems. Every crew has selected a uniform unique to their speciality with the venturing logo prominently displayed, except the civil war crew, and the crews take an active part in the council putting on demo's for packs and troops. The DE that works with us also has a district since numbers and money drive the council. So I guess we are just doing it right and we have the council solidly behind us. So Venturing can and does work if it is done right and crews don't look at themselves as isolated and alone.

Skeptic, I liked your summation of the situation, especially the part about altering requirements for a boy with pushy parents. I also agree that the BSA is still the best youth program we have going today. I see so many troops in my council putting the outdoor program on the back burner because the leaders themselves don't feel comfortable with that element of the program. My seasoned Venturers have even offered to go to any troop to help the adult and youth leaders with their outdoor programs, they have received requests and are currently assisting in 15 troops with everything from basic outdoor skills to a high adventure emphasis program. IMHO using the outdoor segment of scouting is still the best way to attract new members and retain the ones you already have. I still would love to see scoutmaster training include a much stronger emphasis on the outdoor skills than it currently does. A scoutmaster with inadequate outdoor skills will unlikely use that aspect of the program more than is absolutely required. Bob- still singing the same old tune, maybe if you actually read the other posts you would have a much more constructive reply.

Sorry Bob but no one here even mentioned advertising so your remarks are irrelevant and not on topic. We were discussing what has happened to the image of scouting and why it is not attracting the numbers it used to and how all the revamping of the program has been of no real value to the retention of numbers. Now we know that one poster here puts all the blame on the scoutmasters for not following the program, however on a national level units that follow the program and those who do not as closely are still losing numbers at almost the same percentage rates. Boy Scouts is just not cool anymore to 11-16 year old boys, and we have to ask why. Is scouting no longer relevant to the youth of today who do not even want to join in the first place? A bad program only applies to those who wanted to become scouts and have already joined scouting, those kids can be salvaged with a change of leadership. If Nationals program is truly in touch with todays youth then every scouting unit should be bursting at the seams with members. The truth is the more National modifies and changes the emphasis of the scouting program the decline in numbers continues to grow. As Stosh quoted in his post, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" seems to apply or maybe the reality is that the scouting program itself is broke and needs fixin. In my district currently only the cub packs and venturing crews are thriving, more than half of the troops are gone and those left are struggling, and its not because they are not following the program BW.

Stosh & Jeff I couldn't agree with you more. One of the problems I see is that adult leadership, especially in boy scouts has become more passive and are more comfortable in front of a computer than being out in the woods and they tend to attract the same type of boys. I see Mazzuca's plan for the reorganization of scouting going down that same slippery slope. Scouting does have unfortunately received the label of being for the "nerds and dorks" to quote some teens when I asked them about trying scouting. Even though it may hurt a bit I am willing to bet every scout leader currently serving in a troop has heard the same thing. There is even one pack in my district who decided to go with the Cub Scout soccer shirts only because the parents and the boys refused to buy or wear the regular cub uniform. The DE is aware of this but doesn't want to lose the unit, the boys put their rank badges on their soccer shirts, quite a sight to see at district events. So my question is where did the BSA miss the boat? Is scouting no longer relevant to todays youth? My venturing crew youth seem to thrive on outdoor activities and never seem to get enough, the coed group is growing larger every year and many of them have been selected to lead or teach for Kodiak and other events. So I think the thrill of an exciting outdoor program still draws youth, teaching them leadership, outdoor skills, and challenging them to go out of their comfort zone to try and succeed in experiences they thought were impossible to accomplish. So why does National insist on messing with what works, if we don't watch out pretty soon we will be doing all scouting on line.

Whenever you make ranks in scouting easier to obtain and take the hard work and challenge away for the boy you cheapen what that badge really means for the scout. When you allow the fear of losing scouts to dictate simplifying the process to obtaining the Eagle it reflects poorly on the BSA as a whole and gives our critics more fuel for attacks. Scouting was never intended to be an easy and fast track to success but rather a journey to build a boys leadership, maturity, outdoor skills, and citizenship skills which culminates in a boy becoming a mature and responsible adult. Whenever you allow numbers to dictate the methodology and type of program delivered then that program becomes a watered down and impotent version of its former self. This is a generation that demands immediate gratification in all aspects of our daily lives. The "I want it now" mentality is one of the reasons our economy is in the mess it is in today, and reflects the changes in the scouting program. I have witnessed in the business world just how little the Eagle award has come to mean and how irrelevant scouting has become in our society today. Quantity vs Quality which one do you want scouting to reflect?

Wanna bet that if BW had hiked over the Tooth that his bull's tail would be over his left shoulder, lol. Seriously though I also was told the same thing, not from a store clerk but from a professional philmont staffer, and just because it is not in some book doesn't make it wrong or just an urban legend. BW, just because that scouter in my council chooses to wear his jacket the way he does does not make him wrong or less of a scouter, I am willing to bet that if you could you would probably tell Baden-Powell that he was uniformed incorrectly as well, lol. Why do some people love to always point out what they feel is wrong with other people, is that what scouting is all about??

Liz Why not just rent two 7 passenger vans and not go thru the hassle? The extra cost would more than be worth it, especially for one day.

Well it looks like the uniform police are at it again, lol. There is a long time scouter in my council that wears the bull, the loon and the shark all on his jacket, and he is proud to have been to all three bases. In addition he wears a variety of international scouting patches from international events he has attended. The kids and adults love to hear his stories. Am I going to be petty enough to tell him his jacket is not in line with the insignia guide, HECK NO. This man has devoted his life to scouting and has done a lot to motivate and recharge adult leaders and scouts in the council, and IMHO I don't know of any other scouter that personifies the ideals of scouting more than this man. There is an old adage that says, "We are only as big as the things that get us upset." It amazes me at the one or two individuals who are always so quick to point fingers and quote guidelines because it gives them a sense of superiority. So quit sweating the small stuff and concentrate on producing a quality life experience for your scouts that is what is important, not how you or what you put on a red jacket, which IMHO should not even be regulated or considered to be part of the official BSA uniform.

Wow since when is a uniform from 1988 considered to be an antique, lol? rr, good luck on your patch quest and the museum.