BadenP

Hal, while you are right about electronics when it comes to clothing manufacturing here in the USA you are very wrong. There are several plants ready to go in manufacturing scout uniforms and could really use the business. The other factor is that I worked for Mazzuca and I know how he thinks and why the BSA is now doing business with China, if he can get a cheaper shirt, only by about a dollar by the way, he will. The problem is that the material and construction is so much more inferior that you will constantly need to buy replacements, and you can bet Mazzuca took that into account as well. It all comes down to mo money, mo money for National and that is the bottom line in this case pure and simple.

I still feel that a sea scout going after Venturing awards is a rather rare exception than the rule. With all the recent structural changes to Sea Scouting on the National level eventually you are going to see Sea Scouting become its own independent program once again, as it should. At that point the crossover of programs and awards will stop, case in point the Quartermaster Award, because of its pre req's and requirements unless the Venturer is also a member of a sea scout ship it is virtually impossible for him to earn that award. In fact I have read recent literature from National, and our council exec. stating that the Quartermaster award is no longer available to Venturing crews and will be eliminated from the next Venturing Handbook. So it looks like the youth will have to be dual registered in both a ship and a crew if they want to earn both sets of awards and ranks.

I dunno eagle 92 why would a sea scout even want to earn Venturing awards in the first place, they have their own rank awards they need to earn before they can get Quartermaster? Besides even though the two programs are currently under the same umbrella they truly are seperate and distinct programs with very different formats.

Thats the whole point Eamonn, there are currently in the USA dozens of garment producers that could produce a better quality uniform, and with the BSA quantity needed at a competitive price with the Chinese, only slightly higher to cover the better quality cloth and construction. Mazzucas motive is purely dollars, since BSA has the total monopoly on the uniform supply he gets the cheapest quality at the cheapest price he can, yet National still is raising their price to us, and we are forced to take it in the wallet like good little scouts. It is time for the parents and volunteers to tell National that their current uniform supply policy is simply not acceptable, instead of acting like a bunch of placid sheep. Eamonn I truly hope you do not condone this policy by National. We as scouters have got to get over the idea that National can do no wrong and that we as a group have no power to effect change within the organization, because it is just not true.

Dean Interesting points but you are very very wrong when you state the conditions that the goods are produced in are a seperate topic. That is not true as the two are very much inter-related, how can the BSA who says they take the moral and ethical highground, based on the scout oath and law, do business with companies that so flagrantly ignore working conditions and exploit child as well as adult labor to a point of slave labor. As I said before I have been to China and witnessed these things firsthand and I swear that if you went and saw for yourself the conditions of the factories, including the ones producing BSA uniforms, you would feel sick and embarassed when you put on that uniform. In my home town we have gotten almost all the troops and packs to boycott the new uniform until the BSA finds a new manufacturer. We have all signed a petition, adults and youth and sent it directly to Mazzuca, including pictures I took in China so he will not have the excuse that he just did not know. As far as manufacturers in the US there are at least six on the west coast alone I now about more than capable of producing all the uniforms the BSA needs, and much better quality. So you see Mazzucca really has no excuses, the only motivation left is greed. Is that what we want the BSA to be noted for in the rest of the world?

uz2 I agree and have seen the kind of conditions you are talking about, Made in China on a BSA uniform or badge is an insult to the founding principles of what our organization stands for. This manuever by Mazzuca and his cronies is just another method he is using to bring in more money into National at the expense of the boys parents and scouters to pay more money for an inferior product that has already shown does not hold up to standard outdoor activities. I am afraid that this is just the beginning, next all the books will be printed in China as well. Who knows maybe the next step will be a small flag of China embroidered on every uniform piece.

Beewyn You can go to the UK Scout Association website and buy an official Gilwell WB scarf in wool or cotton and toggle, you can even get official Gilwell WB beads. They have no restrictions if they are shipping to the USA or outside the UK, however a scout(er) is honest and it would not be appropriate to wear them with your uniform unless you have completed WB.

tightlines Sorry, didn't mean to blow you off, bad day yesterday I got both you and OGE ticked at me, mea culpa. What I was trying to say is that the BSA program is not a direct copy of BP's program, but a design that borrows from his program certain key elements just like we use certain elements of British government, two legislative houses, president vs prime minister etc. but each is unique to its own country in its methodology, organization etc. and the same is true for scouting, American scouting borrowed from and is a composite of not only from BP but from Dan Beard's and Ernest Seton's already exsisting youth programs as well. Even though scoutings origins are in Britian the BSA adaptation is indeed uniquely American.

tightlines Welcome to the forum. Your argument however is irrelevant to the question at hand. Further the BSA is an American created organization borrowing from BP's program, it is not a British program, but uniquely American.

It was not intended as an attack OGE just a query, I am sorry you took it that way but it just shows how overly involved some parents can become in the Eagle process instead of letting the young man call the shots relying on his own leadership skills and resources, again an observation not an attack.

I agree with eisley our coed crew was at Philmont in '07 and the sea base in '08 and in neither case did the buddy system come up. I told the crew not to wander off alone and they stuck to that. As far as sleeping arrangements were concerned with a coed crew the boys and the girls were seperate, except when we were on the ship, which was pretty tight quarters. Most of the kids slept up on the deck because of the heat/humidity under the stars and ocean breeze. Nothing happened on either trip because the crew acted as I expected them to, like mature adults, even the staff commented how mature the teens acted.

OGE Memories for who, you or your son? It sounds to me you were trying to fulfill your own desires over those of your son, did you ever ask him who are some of the people that he truly admires and looks up to and try to get letters from them? I would guess not. So now your son has a collection of letters that political memorabilia collectors might covet but had little to no influence in his life. Guess he could always auction them off on e-bay. If we are in the business of memory making we need to put the youth's desires ahead of our own. Same thing is true in running a troop.

And I bet the new venturing pants will cost $75-$100 and won't be any more comfortable or durable than the current ones, seems like yet another "MMM" from National supply. New is not always better or less expensive.

uz2, I used the Brit example not to copy them but to show that a more outdoor practical, leisure looking uniform is possible without a billion patches covering every inch of material. I agree their uniforms are not color coordinated very well, but with the right color scheme I bet our boys would be much more willing to wear that style of uniform versus our current one. The one down side for some adult scouters is that there wouldn't be anyplace to wear all their "fruit salad" aka knots, lol. (FYI- vat is not charged if the order is going to be shipped out of Britain)

True shortridge since all that money could be better spent in much more needed areas of the BSA program.

Adelrosa, you are very correct about the uniform, look at the Brits new uniforms who use polo shirts and comfortable and fashionable pants or shorts and a necker. No reason for a uniform that has way too many patches, impractical in the outdoors, looks paramilitary, and is way too expensive.

John Sounds like your congressman was looking for a good PR spot which the kids gave him, anyhow did your son even know who these politicians were? I bet you were more impressed by the letters than he was.

Yea, I agree the only letters an Eagle should receive are those that mean something to him, family, friends, teachers, employers,etc. While achieving the Eagle is a great accomplishment the boy was not elected president for pete sake, and asking foreign dignitaries and other high ranking people is just going a little over the top. Most of the letters received from politicians for example are done by an office staff person and signed with an automatic signature machine, now how personal is that, lol.

Brent, I agree with you if National comes through with those centers than it is worth it, otherwise it is just another Mazzuca Money Manuever. shortridge, those on line trainings, while being convienent, are pretty worthless from a learning point of view, the tests are a joke, and the lack of useful information gives new and other leaders the illusion that they are trained to run a program. Heck lets make WoodBadge on line too, the current format would fit, lol. It is nothing more than a lazy way out of training that is so desperately needed by so many leaders these days.

Neal In one way yes, however with electronic items for example you don't really have much of a choice anymore do ya. As far as BSA uniforms are concerned they are a symbol that supposedly represent the best ideals and freedoms of America so yes it is hypocritical to buy them from a country that exploits children, especially in the apparel industry sweatshops I have seen firsthand. I try to avoid as much as possible all products made in China, India, and Pakistan for example who also exploit the children. Yea, so remember when you put on that new centinnel uniform that some poor woman and or child in China got paid about 10 cents for hours of labor just so you can show off the pride of the BSA. That is why I will never buy the new uniform until National changes their policy and their pursuit of greed to get higher profits for the supply division. IMHO, yes Mazzucca has sold out the principles of the BSA which he has said he holds so dear.

Neal Maybe you should visit China one day and go visit a couple of factories, I have and did and was shocked by what I saw, it would answer your own questions better than I could here. As far as selling out Mazzucca's decision to buy uniforms exclusively from China, who exploits child labor, is a slap in the face of American ideals, freedom, and enterprise which the BSA supposedly upholds, but it looks like it is really nothing more than lip service.

Because singletrack the BSA is constantly throwing up the the scout oath and law as the driving force of the organization and yet CSE Mazzucca will sell out those principles to increase the profits of the supply division and use manufacturers that use child labor and give no human rights to their citizens. The cheap quality of the new uniform, patches,camping equipment, and all the rest show where Mazzuca's priorities really are and it really sickens me. I have written to Mazzuca personally and have even offered my services to find better suppliers who produce better quality merchandise, I have yet to hear anything. When Bob was our SE he always took the cheap way out and usually it led to having to place last minute emergency rush orders to replace the poor quality merchandise we had received, so why should he be any different at National. Instead of "Made in America", National's motto is "Ka-ching".(This message has been edited by BadenP)

While it may be doable the troop will and can not last for long without an increase in membership, re chartering aside. The program delivery even with the best intentions will become stale and boring real fast. If you want to really have a boy led troop you need to have a larger and more diverse group of boys who will all have a chance at different styles of leadership and experiences. A troop of 4-6 is just too small to be viable and its only a matter of time before the kids get bored and start to drop out. Your boys will see larger troops at district and council events and may decide that the larger troop will be a better fit for them. For the last six years I have volunteered with Venturing and they are coed, every crew that started with 5-6 members in our council was gone in the first year. I am very sure the same thing will happen in this troop.

Eagle92 I am right there with you brother 100%. I really hope that Mazzuca doesn't take that last step over the cliff cuz if he does it will be the volunteers that once again will have to pick up the pieces and keep the program running and prospering.

So much for the very overated and overpriced Catholic School system. I taught at a very prestigious catholic high school for a couple of years and this story is nothing compared to some of the situations I watched go down, cheating wise. The kids I taught came from homes with six and seven figure annual family incomes. You noticed that none of the kids were expelled or forced to repeat the class, hmmm, thats because school leaders didn't want to lose any of the parents annual financial contributions. scoutldr, the problem is that nuns for the most part are gone in this country, or are very old, or are not involved in teaching(they wised up real fast, lol).(This message has been edited by BadenP)