BadenP

This is the kind of trivial nonsense scout leaders argue about and then wonder why we are losing scouts at an ever increasing rate. Beavah's post is correct we are not here to teach a kid how to dress, we are here to teach leadership skills and to have a good time learning a variety of useful skills for the future. I have sat on EBOR's where the kids were in a suit and tie, full blown uniform, partial uniform and in every case it was the answers he gave and the growth he showed, and the love of scouting he projected that were the deciding factors as to whether or not he deserved the Eagle. Scouting is so much more than a specific set of clothes, it is the persona or image that the boy emminates that really determines what kind of scout he is. Any scout leader that can not understand probably ought to seriously consider resigning their position.

I think all of us have to remember that by their very nature polls can be made to turn out anyway a person wants them to based on the style and types of questions being asked and who you ask them of. So any poll in reality is really meaningless and at best reflects only the opinion of a small minority. If you want to design a better BSA program you need to bring in leaders and youth from very successful units and have them be the core from which this new program comes into exsistence, not the paper pushers in Texas. Next, kids are sold an idea by proper and relevant advertising that appeals to them in the media types they frequent, not at 2am in the morning like past scout ads have appeared. The BSA has failed to understand for the last 30 years how to use CORRECT advertising to build membership, and the numbers prove it. Polls are meant only to reflect a current mood or opinion of something for a specific region to a specific demographic, not as the medium to create the new BSA of the next century.

While I am not a fan of censorship in most forms in the two cases here I think OGE did the right thing, it is one thing to throw an insult at a poster and whole other one to dissect every fault of another with the malice being shown on these two threads. Now if only that eagle problem thread would disappear. And sherm for the record I truly am not a bitter person, lol.

I agree with some others on will these appeal to the youth? IMHO I think these 4 HMB's should be open to adult scouters who would appreciate them much more. Then the question becomes where on the adult uniform would they be able to wear them? How about on the pocket opposite their Eagle patch, just kidding. I think this is a great way to reintroduce some of the original scouting skills to today's scouts, see Kudu there may be some hope for scouting after all.

BDPT Let me congratulate you on your well written post, which I happen to agree with 100%. I think I may have been wrong about you after all. It is nice to see that when it comes to the core values of what scouting is all about most of us scouters, I think, are in agreement. Well done.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

emb021 Thanks for the heads up I will pass this information on to my venturing crew members at our meeting later this week. Sounds like a great way to give the venturing program a real boost for the centinnel year.

Sorry Eamonn but your experience is not typical of what many here have apparently experienced. Many districts do not even have a full committee and the burden falls to the Key3. As far as the COR's are concerned you are right most shirk their responsibilities because they don't care about the units or scouting. But the system set up in the BSA by West is that the professionals run the show with the COR's getting membership and a vote on the council executive committee if they want, but sadly most do not. The bottom line if the DE has a real problem with the DC or DCommish watch how fast they disappear from the scene, this happened recently with the district commish in my district where I am a Venturing advisor. He openly voiced his opinion that the council had taken the wrong direction in the way they were handling the venturing program, two weeks later at roundtable it was announced that he had stepped down and a new person from the district, a friend of the SE, would be taking his place, no further explaination was given.

Abel, I agree with you and that is why I left professional service after five years, disgust over the type of training we received at National with such topics as , "How to Manipulate your Volunteers", "How to exploit all your district resources, people, service organizations, and companies to make your FOS campaign a sucess", "How to get rid of problem volunteers with little effort", to name just a few. As emb021 stated in his post James West created the professional service to maintain control of the BSA on a National level, allowing only the COR's to have any say on a local level. As I have said before don't kid yourselves volunteers have little to no control over the BSA, and it was designed that way. I agree with what Baden Powell said about keeping this a volunteer run organization, and it is so sad that those in power at its inception chose to ignore his advice. In spite of that the BSA program is still the best youth program there is and ever was.

Abel In reality the answer to your question is yes. It may not be the best way or the right way to do things but it is the most common practice used by professionals. In my own case both of my districts neither had a DC when I came in as the new DE I had to be creative since my Dist.Commish's had no idea of likely candidates. So I asked the mayor in one of my districts and the county sheriff in the other, both former scouts, and both said yes. The volunteers were very happy and excited with their candidate, especially when they came to RT to see how the program was working. After that the volunteers trusted me that I truly had their best interests at heart.

NE IV I don't know about your district or council but usually the DC is hand picked by the DE with whom they have had a good working relationship, well established in the community, and influential in making FOS a district success. At the district meeting I have never seen a vote taken, just an announcement than one has stepped down and this new person will be taking his place, very cut and dry. If a new DE and the old DC do not get along the new DE can and usually does replace him with very little effort, at least in the four councils I have been associated with, no voting has ever taken place. Besides if the DC is really good the SE will grab him for the council committee, when I was a DE this happened twice to me.

To answer your question , no the council does not owe the volunteers an explanation of the dismissal or the details. Professionally speaking it would be common courtesy to give a public statement to the district volunteers as to why it was done, leaving out the sordid details. Narr, remember the only ones who have power and voting priviledges with the council on a volunteer basis are the COR's who are members of the executive committee. As it is in most cases few if any of them ever get involved or participate in this process, which is a shame because they truly are your ONLY voice at council. Now there may be some legitimate reasons why the guy was dismissed and can not be revealed for legal reasons, in any case this whole thing must really have your district up in arms and rightly so.

".Be proficent in merit badge subject matter by vocation,avocation, or special training." Dressing up like Hollywood Indians, making cheap imitation costumes and making a mockery of the sacred dances of Native Americans is in no way qualifications for teaching ANYTHING about Indian culture, and is in fact defaming and insulting to these cultures. So say what you want these 14-16 or even 18 year old OA members have no business counseling anyone about Indian lore. Insult me all you want but it still will not change the facts or meet the criteria mentioned above. OA youth are NOT ELIGIBLE and CAN NOT be Indian Lore MBC's per BSA criteria no matter how you want to twist it.

Eagle I am 99% sure you are incorrect about a "GAS" being qualified as an mb counselor in any area, and even if that was so, which I seriously doubt, membership in the OA alone does not qualify anyone youth or adult to be an indian lore mbc. Besides much of the Indian lore presented in and by the OA is full of cultural errors and innaccuracies. It makes for a nice show but is hardly a true representation of the Indian culture, or qualifies an OA member to be a mbc for the subject.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

emb021 & BPDT I did not say it wasn't a great idea for the OA to assist with indian lore, but the BSA rules, which you two love to throw back at me all the time, clearly does not allow a youth to serve as a mb counselor and sign off requirements period, or even an adult just because he is an OA member. The adult has to possess the qualifications/expertise in the field they are counseling, OA membership alone does not meet that criteria.

emb021 As a stickler for the rules as you are I hope you realize a youth member is not eligible to be a "Indian Lore mb counselor", "we ran the Indian lore merit badge", nor is any member of the lodge just because they belong to the OA.

31 pages of this nonsense, when will it ever end? Does anyone really even care anymore? Time to put this fictional topic out of its misery, lol.

BDPT The voice of reason and understanding? NO The voice of logical discussion? NO I have to say though you are a source of great amusement.

CNY In spite of all the suggestions given here I think you need to feel secure that this is a legit venturing crew and not a rogue one where the safety and welfare of the kids are at risk, especially along the lines of YPT. As far as training is concerned in two years when the BSA makes it is mandatory for any leader who has direct contact with the kids that problem will take care of itself. If attrition is as high as you state it is then the crews days are probably numbered anyway. Concentrate on those units that are open to your help, being a commissioner is difficult enough without having to "tilt at windmills". Good luck.

Frank The only one being indignant here is yourself. Your intolerance of others opinions manifests itself down to the trivial like this topic. No one here is saying break all the rules, you are way to quick to misinterpret what has been stated here. All I have to say to you Frank is to chill out, life is way too short to get so wound up over such little things.

BDPT00& FScouter By your own posts I would classify both of you as perfect examples of the so called "mythical uniform police", your heads are so buried in the uniform guidebook you don't realize how ridiculous your arguments sound or do you give any really valid reasons why a single cloth patch would topple the pillars of BSA uniforming, after all thats what we are talking about here, a single small cloth patch, not a whole uniform. Remember the old saying "you are only as big as the things that get you upset, don't sweat the small stuff".

"Uniforming rules for the most part are administrative matters and should be open to discussion." - desertrat I agree with you there, the wearing of an Eagle patch by an adult on his uniform should not only be allowed but encouraged if for nothing else as a source of inspiration to young scouts. The Eagle patch is an attention getter and discussion starter whereas the knot just gets lost among all the others, but knots are a whole other topic. Only the "uniform police" are the ones who ever seem to get upset about it, but their only rebuttal is that the BSA pub says no, hardly justifying their position. As a youth I reached the rank of Life scout and as an adult boy scout ASM & SM, DE, and Venturing Advisor I have always worn a small Life pin on the pocket flap of my uniforms, for a special personal reason. In over 25 years of scouting service not one scouter volunteer or professional scouter has ever objected or told me I was breaking the rules for wearing that pin. Sometimes we as an organization become buried in the myriad of rules and regs of the BSA, and I think the arguments should be saved for the big important issues and not wasted on minor things like a cloth patch. We need to focus on the big vision of Baden Powell and other scouting pioneers had for the scouting program and not on our own petty objections.

The reality of CO's is that most are nothing more than signatures on paper with no involvement in the unit, yes there are rare exceptions, but for the most part if any serious problem occurred with the unit the CO would drop them faster than you can say CO. As far as the COR's going to training or council board meetings regularly, or even once, that has not been successful for the past century in spite of numerous appeals, and I doubt it will be any more successful in the next one. Why, because the bottom line is that almost all CO's do not feel they are part of the BSA, and really don't want to be. As far church CO's are concerned as soon as you get a new pastor who feels the scouting unit is getting in the way of church activities they drop them with little notice. I have seen this first hand as both a DE and a volunteer leader happen time and time again. This is the reality of the BSA organization today, and no matter what ideas or enticements you all come up with that reality is not going to change. If the BSA made training of the IH and COR mandatory in order to charter a unit you watch how fast the CO's would drop their scout units. The BSA views the CO as the risk taker to remove the BSA from liability problems, nothing more, and that is not a very good starting point to establish a relationship is it.

It amazes me that so many of you think that a local option on this issue is the answer or is even possible. I can tell you after working for CSE Mazzucca for years that in NO WAY would he ever allow a local or unit option concerning homosexuals in scouting, so you can laud its merits all you want but it isn't ever going to happen on Bob's watch. Why, because Bob is a devout Catholic, and second the LDS hold more power than most of you know in the BSA as far as policy decisions such as this one.

WELL BKLYN There are plenty of other sites available, just type in Latin Mass or The Good Friday Prayer for the Jews and you will be amazed at your choices. If your Latin or Italian is good you can go to the Vatican website itself, some of the information is in English but most is in Italian or Latin. What I said about the Latin mass is very true and you will see the gradual transition beginning in 2010. Many archdioceses, including the one in my area, are currently giving their priests a crash course in liturgical Latin that will allow them to at least be competent enough to say the latin mass once again. So Pax Domini to you and enjoy the changes that are already underway. Fini.

Merlyn & Bklyn The best source/site with the offending wording can be found under the heading New Roman Missal, Wikpedia website, "Good Friday Prayer for the Jews". Not only does it say that the Jews killed Christ but that they are "an unfaithful arrogant people" but you can read the full text for yourself, there are many other sites listed as well. This prayer has been reincorporated into the New Roman Missal, in print for all Catholics, and others to read, if they get the new missal. This missal will become necessary as Benedict as declared that the old Tridentine (Latin) Mass is now the "primary Mass" and as Latin will become the primary language of the mass once again replacing the venacular of the country where the mass is said. Benedict is not a man of change or reconciliation rather he is a relic bringing back the offensive and divisive prejudices of the Pre Vatican II Church, which makes him a dangerous individual.