BadenP

eagle 77 If that is indeed the way your council camp is done and your fellow SM's agree with you it is really a simple matter to contact your SE and camping committee and demand a meeting. Have the group explain to them your complaints and demand they change the program, if they give you a bad time your group could threaten to boycott the camp next summer. Then you watch what happens. If no one says anything then the council will continue to think that the camp director did a great job.

These kids look like boy scouts anywhere, yea in some photos they wear campaign hats, but in many others they are wearing baseball style caps. It is not the hat that makes the program, and if they want to adopt a more "traditional" style program more power to them. Besides at the rate National is continuing to bring changes to the boy scout program maybe they need to see for themselves that traditional scouting still works just fine without all of Nationals ill thought out changes.

OX These kind of CIA operations have been going on since WWII and into the present. Nothing really new just that they are not being as covert as in the past. This global war on terror has created a whole new reality worldwide, and this is one of the costs of that war. But I agree that it is disturbing.

Yeah I think Beavah hit this one square on the head. I have seen troops who seem to have their own little cadre of MB counselors to service only that troop, and this trend seems to be on the upswing. The checking of a MB counselor and their qualifications is almost non exsistant in most councils. The whole merit badge program seems to have de-evolved into a race for quantity over quality just like Webelos activity pins. The saddest part is that no one really seems to care just as long as the boys get their badges without a hitch.

In the "Born Again Christianity" scenario no matter how evil you have been or evil acts you have committed once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior everything is forgiven. In Roman Catholicism you must go to a priest present him with a laundry list of your sins and ask for forgiveness/absolution as only RC clergy have the power to forgive sin, and you must continue to go to Confession on a continual basis for the rest of your life. (talk about a control issue) The problem with both of these scenarios is that they fail to recognize that we are all imperfect and will continue to sin no matter how often we go to church or confession. Sin is not a tangible thing or entity, rather the desire or temptation to do wrong is just part of our human nature just like the desire to do something good, and once you realize that then all the labels or catchwords and all the rituals become meaningless.

BD calvin was also a troll he struck had a good laugh and was gone forever, that's what trolls do. You guillible types can think otherwise if you like but it was so plainly obvious if you couldn't see it then your head was buried in the sand. I think even the ones who thought he was legit are beginning to realize the truth and are too embarrassed to admit it. There are a lot of individuals and organizations out there who hate scouting and trolling scout sites is something they love to do, small minds entertained by small things.

I have to kind of agree with Joe Bob. As far as honor in politics that has NEVER been the case in the world or even our country, rather it's one of those historical urban myths. The Continental Congress tried to fire Washington twice , Thomas Jefferson as VP to John Adams wrote anonymous letters to Congress and the papers making up untruths about Adams to get him deposed so he could be President and was almost successful. There is no honor among thieves and that is what politics has been from the local to the international level right through to present day. OX you need to take off your rose colored glasses. Sin or the desire to do something wrong is not a thing you can blame all our problems on rather it is just part of human nature that is sometimes very hard to control. It was the gift of choice that God gave us, but it comes with a heavy price tag.

I thought that in the light of some recent threads and some bad feelings some of the newer posters here might find this helpful and amusing. For the rest some posts to ponder. Sometimes I think we may lose sight of one fact WE are all on the same team.

"What if we were faced with a real warm blooded lad" Ok Eamonn that is irrelevant since that was not the case here. In all your years in scouting and in this forum have you ever heard of any youth coming onto this forum to complain about his BOR because a patch fell off? How many 14-15 year old boys do you know that would want to re-expose themselves to such an embarrassing scouting moment to a bunch of strange adults for their scrutiny, well I will tell you NONE. If calvin had been posting here for a while on a variety of topics then I would agree with you. Look the way the post was written, the ludicrous nature of the problem which was not even realistic by any stretch of the imagination points to a troll post. It would not surprise me that this is indeed one of the old forum trolls, an anti scouting person wanting to start an argument among the forum members, or a student doing some kind of research project. In any case calvin did his job and probably will never be heard from again. It really is too bad that some people can be so easily taken in and manipulated by an anonymous post.

Plowboy Listen, I really understand where you are coming from. The hardest thing I ever had to do in scouting was to step down as crew advisor like you these kids were my kids who I had guided for over 9 years. In my case the new advisors were two of my original crew who had been with me since 14 and had since finished college and become quite the outdoors enthusiasts as well as husband and wife. They are doing a great job(they trade off being Advisor and Assoc Advisor) and I knew they would which was why I recommended them in the first place. It is hard to move on sometimes but as someone once said to me "change is what keeps us young." No one here is questioning your intentions don't take any comments made here personally ever. Good Luck.

Interesting posts. A unit committees purpose is NOT to set program or to interfere in any way in the running of the unit program unless: the unit leaders are violating BSA rules and regs, or violating the goals of the CO for the unit. A committee is there as a check and balance entity making sure all necessary paperwork is submitted timely, to resolve any conflicts that may occur between adult leaders, and adults and youth. A sounding board and support for the CM or SM or CA. Making sure all money and equipment are accounted for to name just a few.

Plowboy You have to remember you are doing this for the boys not for self recognition, because if that is your goal then you should step down and become a den leader and earn all the knots you want. You know I am now a CC/COR for my crew, I earned all my recognition while I was a Crew Advisor for prior years and don't need any now or even then. Remember you have a committee to help with all the paperwork, use them.

Twocub You really do live in a plastic bubble, if you could not see this question for what it was then you truly are naive and gullible. Calvin was no kid posting to this forum but someone who knew exactly how to manipulate certain responses from a select group of overly opinionated and self rightgeous scouters. As far as jackasses are concerned twocub this time you are at the head of the line you got had and got had bad, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Man did you guys take the bait or what, this was an obvious troll question to start some flames going and that's exactly what it has done. iamcalvin is long gone probably laughing at all the infighting going on. Look this was a nonissue from the start, his badge fell off during the BOR, so what he still had the badge in his possession with all the loose threads attached. There was absolutely NO reason to stop it. The problem is too many leaders have become so anal retentive in interpreting the rules and regs they totally lose focus as to why they are there in the first place. NON ISSUE, time for all of you move on to something really important like how to run a quality scout program.

Beav I really do not get your need to continue to drive the main issue under a cloud of irrelevant quotes from your troop committee handbook of probably 20 plus years ago, that has no bearing on the issue at hand, and other legalistic sounding nonsense. You have probably driven poor daveinwa to run out and resign his position. dave asked a simple question and instead of just giving a simple answer you have turned it into another Scopes Monkey Trial. The old bard was right when he wrote, "Let us begin by killing all the lawyers."

Beav Not wanting to mince words with you but if you check BSA pub The Chartered Organization,page 4 entitled Responsibilities of the Unit Committee, there is a explicit list of what exactly they are supposed to do, the only mention of the CO is "Carry out the aims and policies of the organization to help meet its objectives." Nowhere does it mention that the "committee works FOR the CO." This was from my COR Council Training course in 2008. The CO can ask for certain things to be incorporated into the program, but that does not mean they control the program, and as was pointed out to us this only occurs in some units sponsored by certain churches, not in the greater majority. You know you are the one who always says that not to take what is written too legalistically or to the extreme. Besides in daves case here I think the real issue here has gotten lost in a barrage of mumbo jumbo.

daveinwa You know one problem with the BSA policy of allowing Venturers to continue boy scout advancement through a crew is that a lot of old time scoutmasters severely resent it and are overly critical of the whole idea. In addition it gives them another reason to blame Venturing for stealing their boys. As others have said do not worry about what the rules in the troop are because they have no bearing to the crew. The advancement at this stage are mainly earning the required MB's, done on an independent self motivated basis, and doing an Eagle project. To correct Beavah on one part of his post the CC does NOT work for the CO, it is their job to make sure the unit is running smoothly and following the BSA guidelines as well as following any directives set by the CO. Your primary focus is always on the unit.

dave Greetings fellow Venturing leader. I have had six youth complete their Eagles in my crew over the years. If they are registered as crew members, active in crew activities, have held at least one Venturing Officer position they meet the test. If they were still in the troop then their SM would handle the Eagle, but National has allowed former boy scouts who are at least 1st Class to obtain their Eagle through the crew without being in a troop since the inception of Venturing.

The National Executive Board like the Council Executive Board are made up of hand selected well placed individuals who are volunteers and lend their names for National level fundraising projects for a certain term. I doubt most of them have any idea what is happenning at the National museum or could even care. If you look into this deep enough I bet you will find that Mazzucca,Tito, and the ACSE behind this move since GBB and his ideas for scouting run so contrary to Mazzucas vision/plan for the future of the BSA.

Dang MIB "There is no district training committee except MT, my fiance and me." Talk about all in the family, lol. Listen, truefully is this event even being supported and sanctioned by the district and council training committees? If it is then you two should be getting all kinds of support, money,advertising, organizational help, and a cadre of seasoned veteran scouting trainers to offer their expertise. If this is not the case and the district is letting you run this as a rogue course all on your own without district or council resources they may be setting you up to Crash and Burn. So be very careful, and as OGE stated earlier don't bite off more than you can chew.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

MIB I do wish you all the best but I still feel you missed my point. MIB in your last post you specifically state several times that "I have listened to the other suggestions but it is I who will decide what is best" Well MIB that is NOT the way good training is done, especially in the BSA. You have a training team which works in consensus, it is NOT a dictatorship, where each member contributes equally and the group as a whole decides what is the best method or approach to be used. No one person holds all the knowledge, and to say that you and your mom will make ALL the decisions is not only unwise but a receipe for disaster. With a potential for 100 participants you better be dam sure to use as many ideas as you can from as many of your staff as possible. Training is like a well honed machine, you might be able to get by with only two parts barely able to perform the job, but the more parts and options a machine contains allows it to perform the same job with much much more efficency and quality. Just think about it okay.

MT & MIB All I said was that it seemed to me from your posts that this training was just a two person dog and pony show from two people who seem to enjoy control. For a group the size you are plannining there should be at least 15-20 instructors which should include other trainers and experienced scouters in your council which is how a well done training ought to be, but you two do not seem to be interested in doing that. Sorry if you find that insulting but it is just the honest truth.

Despite all your good intentions this seems to be a mother/son proposition controlled by just you two without asking/allowing district/council trainers involvement, and crammed down the councils throat. Scouting is a collaberative process bringing in a wide variety of experiences. In this thread I have noticed that it seems to be just MT and MIB in dialogue with virtually no response to the posts of others. MT with all the confusion about scouting you have shown in other threads are you really the right person for this training? Just an observation is all. I remember in a former council of mine we had a pair, married couple, nicknamed the Dominator & Dominatrix. They for a while ran and controlled all the training in their district and much of the council, it was always their way or the highway. This lasted over a year until the new SE saw how many scouters he was losing on both unit and council level so he called them in to a council exec board meeting and dismissed them from all council responsibilities. They sold their home and disappeared from the scouting scene. Some of the volunteers solemnly marked the occassion by calling it DD Day.

Mark As a former WDL myself I wanted to add a couple of things. First, a Web den is much smaller than a troop so you need to focus in on what the boys interests really are and pursue those. As far as the activity pins are concerned quality over quantity should be the directive. Those who really want the AOL should realize it means a commitment and some hard work, not just handed to them on a silver platter. Get some good relations established with local troops with outstanding programs so the boys can be prepared for the next step in scouting and feel comfortable transitioning with those troops. Web's are ready for more mature activities but they are not boy scouts yet so make sure you don't throw too many of the more advanced boy scout skills into your program, give them something to look forward to in boy scouts. AND MOST IMPORTANT, don't hold every den meeting inside get them outside as much as possible, parks and nature centers are good examples where they can see and experience firsthand what they are learning in the outdoor activity pins. For the Citizen pin my kids went to a city council meeting and were invited to do the opening flag ceremony. So find as many experiential opportunities as possible to bring the program alive for them. Good Luck.

Eagle 2010 While you received some good advice here I think the troop problem is much deeper, the kind I have not seen for years. To me it sounds like your adult leaders are trying to live or recreate their own scouting experiences of their youth. This is a problem with some troops I dealt with as a DE and a SM, namely scout leaders suffering from the Peter Pan Syndrome, not wanting to grow up and wanting everything done their way only. So IMO as a JASM approach the adult leadership and skillfully find out if they are truly open to have the boy leaders take more control of the program, and have a program designed ready to show them. If they are truly open to the idea get your PLC ready to take more control of creating and developing the troop program. If the adults are really closeminded to boy leadership, IMO, it is time to find a new troop. Just remember take it one step at a time and stay positive. Good Luck! As far as these PPS scouters are concerned you usually find them on WB staff multiple times, and district and council training committees, SM's for over 20 years in the same troop, etc. The ones who really have it bad can be seen very clearly if you ever visit the National Office from the CSE and on down the chain of command.