BadenP

Barry My point was on the topic of this thread, it is not our place to judge anothers lifestyle, even if we may disagree with it. For as the quote states if we judge than we ourselves and our lifestyles are open to judgement. The point is we are not the ones to judge how others choose to live their lives as there is only one true judge of all. This is not about individual sin, it is about judging and condemming a whole group or groups of people based on limited human understanding. This kind of discrimination has been used to justify extermination of whole groups of people throughout history because they were different in lifestyle or beliefs. The point is it is not your place or my place or anyone elses place to pass judgement on any other group of people.

Basement Don't you have local district RT's, why do you have to go to the council office???

Barry I think that passage I quoted speaks for itself, and it is not just about hypocrisy. People love to judge others using their own lifestyle as the ideal, that does not make it right or impartial by any stretch of the imagination. That is why I used the example of Jesus, taking in all who came to him without question, without a third degree, and looked at them with a sense of compassion and caring, seeing the true person. For us to do otherwise is not being a true Christian. In fact what you are saying is being truly hypocritical to what we are called to by Jesus.

pj I have to agree with what the others have said here, sea scouts is an extremely expensive enterprise as well as very time consuming. In my council we once had six sea scout ships now we have one and it is barely holding on. Since our crew does do a lot of sailing and kayaking many of the former sea scouts have joined our crew. Without a sponsor who can help financially supporting the ship most sea scout ships (motorized not sail)are going under in these tough economic times. Too bad since Sea Scouts has such a rich history and is a great program. I don't think you will see a big growth in sea scouts anytime soon.

If this is indeed a National change then IMO the BSA is even bigger trouble than I ever imagined. What on earth makes them think volunteers in a district will skype any more than go to a meeting? With National planning to eliminate more and more councils in the new "MEGACOUNCIL PLAN" the need for roundtables would become even more crucial, not less. With no local BSA structure or support I can see the district and unit scouting program flounder even more than it is now. What's next a virtual DE who answers any question with "I will have to look into that and get back to you." and you never do hear anything back. We will just have to wait and see if this is indeed true.

Barry "Judge not lest ye be judged" -a Bible quote for you that blows apart the theory in your last post. The Bible implies that God is the final and only true judge and man by his own imperfect nature is unable to judge other men. Jesus opened himself to all kinds of people sinners, pagans, murderers, prostitutes, etc., are you saying you are more qualified to judge than the son of God??? IMO scouters are hardly in any position to judge other scouters as to their lifestyle, you can have an opinion however most of the time that opinion is based more on emotion than any real concrete facts, the recent thread on the bisexual scout proved that.

Joe Bob Not in the context I was using the term, y'all!

Merlyn Interesting you use references from the post 15th century forward and only what supports your position. In fact an atheist trying to redefine reverent with only secular post reformation sources can hardly claim that they are the definitive origins and meaning of the word, as you do. However Merlyn you do live in your own limited sense of reality and I will not get into a theological debate to prove how incomplete and one sided your views and sources are. You can continue to live on the fringe all you like and more power to you as it is not my place or desire to show you the error of your ways.

All of this debate boils down to simply either one has faith/belief in a "supreme being or one does not. Reverent has its origin in a belief in something/someone of a supreme nature and trying to take it out of that context and warp it into a secular definition just devalues the word of its true meaning. Many Christians believe that the secularization of many of the societies in the world today has led to their downfall, our own especially. You can take all the court decisions and historical failures you want to try to justify your case for humanity being an immoral and irreverent people and to state atheism is somehow a more balanced and logical system, but IMO you would be wrong Merlyn. If you want to roll craps that there is no "GOD" that is your right, but you better be right, from my own experiences I choose to believe because I have seen miraculous things happen in my personal life for others as well as myself and I know for my own mind the atheistic philosophy is just plain wrong.

It is always a few radical splinter groups or radical individuals claiming to be Christian and not the mainstream religions that have objections to the OA. In other words they are self important groups seeking recognition among mainstream Christians who have already rejected them and their philosophy.

Joe Bob All I can say is that the first line of your post does much to carry on the stereotype of the uneducated southerner. Your premise is also totally false about this forum, and remember it was a Republican president for eight years that got us into this mess in the first place.

Beavah is correct when he says National is not a governing body but rather more like a sales team selling programs to the CO's who are then free to add their own restrictions as to what type of a unit it will be and what type of leaders and members it will allow. In spite of what Merlyn thinks bsalegal.org is NOT an official BSA website but an independent one, and its interpretations are their own as the fine print at the bottom of the site clearly implies. If the BSA truly wanted to ban all homosexuals from membership then they need to put that restriction clearly worded on all applications and in all their publications. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen however since National will continue to pass that hot potato on to the purview of the CO.

As a ASM and a Scoutmaster I went to two jamborees as part of the adult leadership, in both cases we had pre jambo meetings and outings where we got to know the boys and vice versa. When we got to AP Hill we had virtually no problems with discipline, the boys knew that if they acted like adults we would treat them as such, giving them the freedom they wanted. We had assigned meeting times and places and never lost one. I find it hard to believe that any council would let their jamboree contingent go to jamboree without making sure the boys and leaders had ample opportunities to get to know each other well before taking off for two weeks. Maybe we were just lucky.

Abel Nice try. That website is NOT an official BSA site but a private organization using the BSA logo, check the note on the very bottom of the page, "filed on behalf of the BSA". Never take a website at face value as being authentic. So again nothing in any OFFICIAL BSA site or publication.

Barry Relating personal experiences/stories are what tribal cultures have done through the centuries to pass on their beliefs and traditions to the next generation. What do you think the Bible is for example, a series of experiences/stories passed down attempting to show the presence of "GOD" actively at work in the lives of the ancient Jews and early Christians, and humanity's acceptance and rejection of those interactions. The same can be said for the Torah, Koran, the writings of the ancient Asian philosophers, and the tribal cultures oral traditions.

"for some questions there is no point in answering with words"-qwasze A very good point indeed, especially in this case. God or the supernatural really does transcend our own limited vocabulary or ability to explain except on a very superficial level. God is truly experiential, and each experience is unique to that individual receiving it. Humanity loves to try to define "God" within the limitations of our own human experience, however the true understanding of "God" can not be done within set limits, but rather goes way beyond our own cognitive abilities. All we can do as humans is relate our own personal experiences in our feeble attempts to explain the nature of "God" to another person.

Merlyn You miss the point, we can not directly see "gods", but the National Parks for example give us an insight to the power of creation in nature in the formation of these sights that evoke some sort of awe witin ourselves that comes from a force or power far greater than ourselves. Hurricane Irene is another current example of this same power. Now tell me Merlyn do you think you are greater than the power of nature? Shinto and Buddhists do not have a "god" in their religions but they do have the recognition of the power and creation in the natural world. Reverence goes way beyond going to church every Sunday and reading holy books.

Like it or not shortridge is correct, there is nowhere in any BSA pub or application that specifically states "homosexuals are not allowed in the BSA." Maybe the BSA is trying to avoid a massive class action lawsuit by being as unspecific as possible on this issue allowing the CO's to take the lead in this matter.

"A feeling of reverence, awe, and respect" is true Merlyn, but your definition lacks an essential element, revering, respecting, awe inspired of what, who, and why. If it is awe of a place, thing or person then the question is why are you in awe of it? You can pussyfoot all you want around the elephant in the room but reverent implies an understanding of something or a power greater than ourselves. Our National Parks are a good example as many people say they are awestruck by the parks beauty and most acknowledge a force greater than themselves are responsible for their creation. Whether you want to call it scientific forces or a creative force it opens the doors to a myriad of additional questions. In other words the term reverent is not a simple black or white definition, it goes beyond our own basic understanding of the world around us.

Interesting all of these former regional directors scrambling for SE positions, a downward professional move, all over the country, makes you kinda wonder what's brewing at National now. Maybe another Mazzucca reorganization plan is in the works.

My crew uses the phrase the "Crew Cruise Cuisine Method". They all love to show off their gourmet skills on the various outings they plan.

chaoman While I am not the biggest fan of WB21C compared to the old WB there are some definite things any scouter would be able to find useful in their scouting, such as organization and program planning methods, as well as great networking opportunities. Personally I have not seen very much in the way of leadership skills for adults in the OA, which is meant to be more a paternal service organization than anything else. WB is a lot of work however and takes a lot of committment which if an individual is not willing to commit to he should probably not bother taking the course

As a former DE myself I have seen these mid management scouting pro's who were real bums. Many of them are there because they LACK the skills needed to become an SE so they get moved around every three years or so to be some other SE's headache, and this guy definitely sounds like one of those. Unless he actually does something the SE will probably let it go or give him a minor slap on the wrist. If this guy is is exhibiting some real inappropriate behavior of the predator/stalking variety, my suggestion is to file a complaint with the police department, that will force the SE/National to take immediate action leading to his immediate dismissal from the BSA. It all depends on the nature and severity of his actions. If he is just being an annoying putz, then I suggest you talk to the council president or vp who can put some pressure on the SE to take action. In my experience professional scouters stick together when a volunteer files a complaint so talking to the SE may not give you the desired result.

Beav In theory I agree with you but what you are ponting out in your defense is the "Washington Machine" which has become so powerful it is almost impossible to stop. Obama in his naivette really believed he could fix that machine and instead it chewed him up and spat him back out. Until the American people develop the guts to demand every politician they elect is held accountable or be booted out in the next election nothing will change. Instead Americans for the most part vote straight down party lines and then wonder how such jerks get into office and why nothing gets done. This economic crisis is not going to get any better anytime soon because no one person or group of people have any realistic ideas how to fix it. Each party is blaming the other, moronic groups like the Tea Party do nothing but disrupt the process , and the result is total CHAOS that could cripple this country for decades.

Kudu Thanks for the great article. It is a piece of scouting nostalgia as well as a reminder for all scout leaders of our scouting roots and traditions that should never be forgotten, replaced, or eliminated from any of our programs. Maybe I will send a copy to Bob Mazzucca as a reminder why camping and outdoor skills are so important to the scouting program even today.(This message has been edited by BadenP)