BadenP

I think this discussion has become hysterically funny with SP and Barry defending the Republican party and giving them credit for being the only ones trying to fix this economice mess we are in, as well as blaming the liberals for this crisis. You two should study your political history more closely, every eight years the other party gets in and has their eight years to screw everything up until the American voters get fed up and boot them out of office. The truth of the matter is that NEITHER party has a clue how to fix this economic mess we are in, none of the crazy plans both sides are proposing will put a dent in this problem. This debate has truly become a "highway to nowhere".

Eamonn A well written post right to the point. You know the next time our crew is asked to do a pioneering demo I think I will invite Bob M. and Tico to come see for themselves,see some real scouting in action, and then challenge both of them to a race up a 20 foot tower, think they will come, lol. Seeing the shape both of them are in I will make sure to have a team of paramedics standing by.

Beavah It would be interesting to see the necker become the international symbol/uniform of all scouts worldwide, worn over a durable generic outdoor style shirt with a minimum to no patches sewn on. The BSA would probably have the most difficult time making the adjustment, not with the youth but with the adult scouters. The uniform would then become a true symbol of the worlds scouting programs unity, instead of a billboard advertising look at me and everything I have done. Interesting to think about.

Scoutfish Yea I remember all that stuff too, except wasn't Pegasus on the Mobil sign red not black, at least out west it was. Remember as a kid when gas stations gave a premium with every fillup, my favorite were some great drinking glasses with antique cars etched on them. Well my wife took me to one of her favorite antique stores a couple years back, and there on a dusty shelf was a set of seven of those exact same glasses. I could not resist and bought all of them, now they sit on my wetbar shelf at home. My first tent as a boy scout my parents got me were from green stamps, remember those? Ah those were the good old days, I guess we are all getting older, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

allenj You seem to forget that this was how our own revolution got started, that people like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and many others were branded the "whack jobs" of their day. This country was founded on free speech and the rights of the people to expect a representational government to look out for their best interests. All of that has been lost in todays do nothing Congress and administration, and with our economy continuing to tank and people losing all their savings, pensions, jobs, and houses these protests will continue on. I am willing to bet if you lost your job, house and savings you would be right out there joining in.

Hey SP Interesting council meeting you had. I am always suspicious of any adult with absolutely no experience in a particular scouting program advising other experienced leaders how they should run their programs. Someone gets put on a council committee and all of a sudden they are experts on everything. From her statement it sounds like more National propaganda to increase numbers of boy scouts by giving them a fast food easy road to Eagle approach to scouting versus a quality program where they actually experience and learn the skills of camping and surviving in the woods. Making sure troops are adult led insures all troops use Nationals classroom scouting program model where the leaders have to do virtually little to no hiking, camping, or any other outdoor activities. There is even one troop in our council that does ALL of their outdoor requirements in a vacant field near their meeting place, they never go camping or to the district camporees, and they have the councils approval. If this is indeed the future of the boy scouts then we are all in serious trouble.

Eagle92 Your idea of a standard uniform for all Venturing to increase public awareness is just plain ridiculous. Youth in their middle to late teens the last thing they want is to wear is anything bearing any resemblance to a uniform,and it always seem the adults who love to run around in their boy scout uniforms reliving their childhood are the ones who always bring this idea up as the solution. So yeah lets insist Venturers all wear a boy scout style uniform and watch them drop away even faster than they do in boy scouts. Whether you realize it or not scouting is right now at a crucial crossroads with ever increasing changes in programs getting us further away from our roots and an ever increasing number of youth dropping out of the program, especially in the first year. Our venturing crew as of this week has reached 70 in number, after 10 years as a venturing advisor I know what works and what doesn't work in runnning a successful venturing program. Your idea is plainly unrealistic and will do nothing to promote Venturing, but it would drive the teens away.

Eagle92 It is not because of the uniform option that the public doesn't know Venturing, it is the fact Venturing has only been around for a little over 10 years while boy scouts have been around over 100 years, so your point is an invalid one. Another reason is that a well run Venturing crew is pretty independant and doesn't have the dependency on district or council events with anywhere near the frequency that boy scouts and cub scouts do.

"You are not going to have time to learn pioneering with the T2FC the first year and the Eagle in another year or two." - Seattle Pioneer That SP is what is exactly what is wrong with the current boy scout advancement program. Why do these scouts have to be rushed through scouting at all? Maybe because an increasing number of troops are running such a bland and boring program that the boys drop out after a couple of years from sheer boredom. With less and less time being devoted to the outdoor program skills like pioneering are disappearing rapidly. Scouting is NOT supposed to be a series of classroom exercises which it has become,and it is really tragic that today a boy can receive his Eagle and not have a clue or the skills to survive in the woods. Maybe the BSA should be renamed the CCSA = Computer Cupcake Scouts of America.

Some interesting posts indeed. I think this thread should be renamed to "Is the Boy Scout Uniform Important?". No one here will argue that teens love to belong to a group or club and wear some kind of identifying symbol of that group. The question is what should that identifier be? The boy scout uniform, in its present form, is overly expensive, impractical for use in the outdoors, made of poor quality material and with shoddy workmanship, not to mention is pretty ugly and unstylish. Then we wonder why so many kids resist wearing them. Since I have been part of the Venturing program for over a decade now which is a uniform optional program, I have been impressed how the youth members of the crew have addressed this issue. First they have chosen a basic polo style shirt that was high quality material and specifically designed for rigorous outdoor activities, with a small Venturing logo and Venturing Crew with the number embroidered on the front. For colder times they chose a polar fleece heavy duty hoodie with the same embroidery. Neither is required for belonging to the crew, however I have noticed that every one of them owns the polo and almost all the hoodie. When we go on our outings and people see 50-60 teens wearing these polos walk into a store or cafe the teens are always approached by more than a few people and asked what the group is all about. I guess my point is that the BSA uniform does not have to be a $125.00 ugly, impractical, poor quality, and unstylish to accomplish its purpose of making a teen feel part of a group, and be proud of that group.

momof2 First of all the CC is entitled to and can demand to see the books anytime he/she wants to as the head of the committee, even without the COR's backing. Second, I think your pack learned a good lesson about putting just any warm body into key pack positions. A treasurer should have a bookeeping/accounting/finance background otherwise you are just asking for trouble as you have now discovered. Now the committee and the COR should sit down with her and go over all the books to see where the problems are and take any immediate action necessary. As another precaution your pack books/checkbook should be kept in a secure spot at your CO or a safe deposit box never at a volunteers home, because if they bail or move you would be out of luck.

83Eagle Ok maybe I did come on a little strong to your post, mea culpa. In my district currently we are seeing packs and troops in danger of folding because of leaders who are not trained, or are poorly trained in what scouting is supposed to be all about. Every week someone in our crew is approached by groups of boy scouts who want to leave their troops and join us because their leaders do not give them any real leadership opportunities, or input into the program. In several cub packs the leaders and parents are fighting among themselves about uniforms, who should be in charge, and what the program should be, as a result these packs are really struggling to hold on. So when I read the premise of your post about "consequences" for not wearing a uniform to a pack meeting it sent up red flags. I agree that uniforms are an important part, but not a crucial part, of the scouting program. Too many units become fixated on holding uniform inspections at every meeting instead of delivering an awesome program to the boys. Maintaining a pack uniform bank is a great way to assure that all the boys feel a part of the pack instead of being singled out for not being dressed correctly, especially in these very difficult financial times. Good Luck with your pack.

83Eagle Well this "snarky" poster responded in kind to the almost beligerant tone of your original post. As others here have pointed out to you it is okay to give a SMALL reward to those boys in uniform without making a big deal out of it or punishing the others. It sounded to me from your post like you rule your pack with an iron fist and that is unfair to the boys, and simply not allowed in scouting, especially with Cubs.

qwasze I think your answer is a little too simplistic. Look, our crew has over the years accumulated massive amounts of good quality rope and poles, most of it donated, to the point where our crew now has the reputation of being able to put on a great pioneering display, and we receive at least four requests each year to do just that. When I was a boy scout our troop on every outing, at scout fairs, and camporees used to create various pioneer projects. Nowadays those skills seem to be lost in the scouting community with both the leaders and the boys, and that in my mind is a tragic loss to the scouting program. While others may disagree every time I see the smiles on my crews faces when they complete a monkey bridge or tower and are tearing up and down their creations proves to me what a worthwhile skill and activity it is. At our last trip to the Seabase the teens found some bamboo poles laying around and lashed together a small raft and rowed it into a little bay where they had a ball racing it around. IMHO pioneering is still an essential skill that all scouts should have the opportunity to experience, sadly this does not to be the case anymore in this age of "Cupcake Scouting".

Geessh 83 Eagle The kid showed up to the meeting at least, and maybe his uniform is in the wash, in any case to impose any kind of consequence on the boy runs contrary to the message and spirit of scouting. This is a cub scout, any type of punishment for not having or not wearing a uniform to a meeting is against scouting policy, but you should already know that from your training.

Eagle23 As another poster in this forum is always saying "It is a venturing crew not a venture crew" There is the option in boy scout troops to have a "Venture Patrol" for older scouts with more outdoor high adventure activities and that might be better suited for your purposes. The other posters here have done a good job describing the differences between a crew and a troop, the only thing I would add as a Venturing Crew Advisor for ten years is if you plan to run the crew the same way you do your troop then go with the Venture Patrol instead. Venturing has its own dynamics and program, it is not boy scouts and those leaders who have tried to run a crew like a troop usually experience a mass exodus in the first year and then blame the Venturing program for their own failure. Talk to the successful venturing advisors in your area and find out why their programs work, what is involved in running a successful venturing program before you go to the trouble of starting a new crew. Remember Venturing is NOT boy scouts!!!!

Just another scout skill and memories lost to the scouting of the past. So few scoutmasters or troops have the skills or training to even bring pioneering to their troop program anymore and that is the true tragedy. At the last district camporee our crew was asked to put on a pioneering demonstration, when the crew invited any other scouts who knew how to lash to join in only three out of the entire group stepped up. The others watched fascinated as the crew put together a monkey bridge, so some of the crew later on actually taught the others how to to do basic lashing techniques. My question is how and why did pioneering skills become lost to the boy scout program, since it still is required for First Class, at least on a very very basic level? My guess the scouts are just being pushed through with a square lashing and three sticks to make a tripod or a scale model like those shown in the handbook, but that is NOT true Pioneering. The fact that,at least in my district, the scouts and most scoutmasters do not even know how to do basic lashings is indeed disturbing.

Yea Beavah got most of it correct, I would just add the way National sets it up it is they who initially commission all DE's, and all professional scouters are totally dependant on National for promotions really making them the primary employer, as opposed to the council. An executive committee member or members approve the hiring of all professional staff, however if the SE has already made up his mind he wants the person the exec committee approval is usually little more than a rubber stamp endorsement, that is the reality of the system in place. As a DE when I went to training at National it was ingrained in us to be prepared to relocate every 3-5 years to assure steady promotions. It was also said that a DE after 3-5 years hustling in the field for numbers and money usually had worn out his welcome in that district in that time and moving on and putting a new DE in would be a "fresh start" for both the professionals and districts. While I saw some validity in the idea I still thought it was a crazy way to run the professional side of scouting.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

It is one thing to use common sense regarding the safety of any pioneering project but quite another to mandate overzealous requirements that really make no sense. It would not surprise me if National eventually mandates the complete elimination of all pioneering projects and that merit badge from the boy scout program. It will be yet another example of the movement at National towards downsizing the outdoor program of the boy scouts so the boys will not get a boo-boo and sue the BSA for negligence. I tell you Kudu's analogy of todays boy scout program as "Cupcake Scouts" is becoming more of a reality every day. Sad, sad, sad.

Seattle Your post has absolutely no relationship or relevance to the discussion at hand, in fact I find it a little bizzare. Scoutfish I guess you missed the points I was trying to make to you about taking certain pieces of the Bible out of context and too literally. Well I guess that's what I get for trying to rationally discuss religion and the Bible with amateurs, I am done with this thread the rest of you can have at it.

Scoutfish No one, especially Christians should take the rules in Leviticus literally, they were written by men, not ordained from God, for a different time and a different people. At best they supply a historical content of the ancient Hebrew culture. Exodus was the story of Gods covenant with the Jewish people which was replaced by Jesus Christs birth, teachings, and ultimate sacrifice for all humanity.

Wow some of these roundtable horror stories are truly pathetic and sad. Thank goodness I guess I was lucky the RT's in my councils were usually pretty good and when they weren't there were always some great scouters to talk with. Basement, with your experiences at RT and Wood Badge I am really surprised you even stayed in scouting, I am not sure if I would have.

Barry Why are you so fixated on the one scripture that you do not respond to the rest of the posts content? Life is not all black or white, there are a lot of gray areas and sometimes you find your argument has left you trapped on the edge of a cliff with no where to go but off. Enjoy your trip down.

Oh Barry, Barry Where do you get off with making the statement the Bible tells us to judge? If you are referring to the book of Leviticus let me remind you as a Christian that Jesus is the new covenant and supercedes any Old Testament covenant that was made with the ancient Hebrews. In fact Jesus himself says "I am the new and everlasting covenant", What is a "normal heterosexual family" anyway, one where the spouses cheat on each other or beat or abuse their kids, depression, suicide, or get drunk and do drugs every night, fake illnesses to collect Workers Comp or Welfare, steals from the workplace, etc etc. In all my years of counseling experience just about every so called "normal hetereosexual family" I have counseled has had at least one or more of these factors going on in their families, because you see Barry there really is no such thing as a "normal hetereosexual family" it is an ideal that few if any can live up to. We are ALL imperfect!!! You can disagree if you like but passing judgement/condemnation on a group because you disagree with their lifestyle is beyond any of our paygrades and is truly UnChristian.

Scouter As an advisor for nine years none of this should be new to you. How large was your crew that you "lost ALL of them to graduation", something doesn't seem right especially since venturing goes to age 21? Look the first step is to get your officers trained and familiar with what their duties are going to be. VLSC can be done within your own crew and helps them understand successful leadership styles and organization. Since they are new they need time to develop. What about your Associate Advisors they should be there to help in this process as well? I hear you say that "I have done this before" and "as I prepare for", being an Advisor for a successful crew is NOT a one man show. If you do not have a solid group of adult support behind you, some active associate advisors and a good crew committee than you will not succeed. I was a crew advisor for ten years, now I am the crews CC/COR, my crew went from 10 to over 65 members. The current advisors are some of the early crew youth officers who love Venturing and working with teens. The crew traditions and reputation for a fun and challenging program continues to attract new members by word of mouth and the public seeing the service projects the crew does for the community. $60 in Facebook ads, you gotta be kidding.