BadenP

JM Then we have to agree to disagree. If you try long and hard enough you can rationalize almost anything to fit your viewpoint, even though it runs contrary to the conventional truth.

JM You don't seem to get it either, cheating is cheating no matter even if you try to sugarcoat it as double dipping. Kids these days have a hard time seeing the boundaries, and if their scout troop allows to fudging to take place this impression will follow him into adulthood. I am so tired of so many current SM's saying the requirements for Star, Life and Eagle are way too hard and the kids are so busy in school, that is just plain bull. The problem is too many boys wait until they are over 17 before even starting the climb to Eagle, and that is plain too late. Yet I have seen SM's fudge and twist the requirements so much to squeeze a kid in that the process has no meaning to the boy, and neither does the rank. Your job as SM is to advise and be realistic with the boy instead of pushing through a kid who is not ready and really doesnt care with dishonest practices. Yet what you and 5year describe is becoming more prevalent in scouting, and it is clearly hurting the credibility of the organization for every paper Eagle you sneak through the system. None of your corny platitudes will ever change that fact!!

5 year Sorry but your reply is just a copout and nothing more. I have had two sons receive their Eagles while they were involved with sports and school activities and they seemed to get everything scheduled just fine. As another poster said your kid is no busier than any other kid these days. So if you think double and triple dipping service hours is okay instead of just being dishonest, what message is your boy getting? Maybe he can hire someone to take his college entrance exams for him since he is so busy. You can rationalize your actions all you want but anyway you slice it it still is a cheat.

5 year You seem to miss the point being in scouting , just like school or sports, requires making a true committment. Scouting ranks are EARNED not given away because he is a nice kid. You as his SM must help him learn how to balance his schedule, if he is too overloaded he is going to have to give something up instead of burning the candle at both ends. Allowing him to triple dip his service hours sends the wrong message that it is okay to do a substandard job with a task and to fudge requirements just to get him through. That kind of SM leadership is what is undermining the boy scout program today. and if you really believed in the Scout Oath and Law you would not allow these kind of practices to exsist in your troop, however since you seem to think it is okay to fudge requirements I really have to question your credibility as a SM.

You know all these service hour problems are directly related to the BSA pushing ranks way too fast T-1st in a year then S-L-E in another year or two and the scout leaders that allow this double dipping just prove to the boys they don't have to make any extra effort to advance. The ranks have virtually no real meaning to the boys because they have been pushed through scouts using the fast food approach. Double dipping is permitted only by lazy scoutmasters who don't seem to understand their responsibilities to the youth. BD- with all due respect there is no 12 yo scout who is ready for Eagle. With all my years as an ASM and SM the boys getting Eagle at that young of an age is a complete mockery of the true scout program, especially when he is allowed to fudge on most to all of his requirements. When I talk to the SM's at RT les than half are even qualified to be a real scoutmaster. That is why todays scouting is little more than a program for Cup Cake Scouts.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

OGE There is no professional manual of "Moral Turpitude". The prevailing attitude seems to be handle each case quickly,if it is necessary dismiss the volunteer and do it in a way that is airtight to prevent any future lawsuits from that individual against the BSA. In my years as a DE I saw two volunteers memberships permanently revoked, and an FD and SE fired from the BSA for money and morality issues.

Horizon If all scouts and scout leaders were held to a literal interpretation of the Scout Oath the BSA would entirely disappear overnight. A nice concept but totally unrealistic in todays world. jrush- In reply to your comment "the Catholics get morally straight." The Church hierarchy has a real credibility issue with that for centuries and into today. The latest issue of a news magazine on the cover has characteurs of the most radical extremists in the world today right next to the President of Iran the largest figure is Pope Benedict waving his crozier in anger. So it all is a matter of perspective.

Well lets put some perspective here, a unit account at council can be used for any unit expense or debt to said council. BD I agree with you 100% that your DE acted innappropriately and you should be upset, but any council would have done the same thing when you turn in applications with no fees, all they care about is getting those numbers recorded and paid for any way possible. As far as FOS at the Blue & Gold, you are well within your rights to deny access, if they don't like it too bad. Dealing with some councils can be difficult but once you learn their MO you can work around them. In the case of my crew I go to council once or twice a year, our crew does not use the councils camp or any of their facilities, our crew refuses to sell popcorn.The crew does make an annual FOS contribution, but does not allow any FOS rep to any crew meeting. I have had a couple of DE's challenge me in the past, but as a former Sr. DE when I tell them exactly what they are and are not allowed to do as far as dictating to the unit they backed off and we never heard from them again. You see we are the largest(50+% of the venturing membership), most successful, and oldest crew in the council. The SE knows where I am coming from and we have developed an understanding over the years so no one messes with us anymore. Maybe you can have a heart to heart with your SE and get that DE off your back. Good Luck!

skeptic Re-read the first two lines of your previous post, it says it all. It was you who were off topic and acusatory, not me, and it does not reflect well on you. I told you specifically when a SE is authorized and will revoke a BSA membership. The last comment directed at you in this case was appropriate, like it or not.

Blanc You are correct, the SE only gets involved if there are charges of child abuse, endangerment or serious criminal activity. A DE can not and does not have the power to revoke membership, if he is informed of a scouter involved with the above mentioned it is referred to the SE for investigation. There is no place to view the procedures the SE follows, as far as I know. To protect itself from a lawsuit I know they must substantiate the charges, in my old council the local police actually conducted part if not most of the investigation. As far as child abuse, etc, there needs to be an official police report verifying the charges. In the case I was involved with the scout leader additionally admitted to the charges as well. That was 20 years ago, so I can not tell you of the current procedures.

Cambridge You are correct. Eamonn Sorry I really did misread your last post, please ignore my response to it, mea culpa.

skeptic The OP was talking about removal of an individual from scouting and that IS what my post was directed at. Your comments are out of place and inappropriate in this case as the last post from the OP verifies. Why don't you worry just about your own posts in the future!!

pack and Papa Great posts, you guys did a very good job explaining the ideal and the reality of this requirement. Kudos!

Eagle92 You know better than that, lol. Like I said I once had to hand deliver the letter on behalf of the SE and Council Pres to an individual whose membership the SE revoked for child endangerment and tell him to leave the troop meeting. I took along my dist commissioner, who was a sheriffs deputy, and it was a pretty sad occassion.

Eagle92 Point of order, the SE DOES have the right to rescind membership of anyone involved in violation of National policies or involved in criminal activity. As I said if the membership is revoked by National there is no voting it is a done deal and that person is out. The CO is then sent a letter telling them to remove this person from their roster. This is usually only done in extreme cases where the youth are put at risk by this individual. (This message has been edited by BadenP)

moose See my post in the DE thread, but you are in error on one point. The SE and only the SE has the right to rescind any individuals membership in the BSA, once that is done the person can no longer serve in any scouting capacity. The BSA sends a letter to the CO advising them this individual has had their membership revoked and can no longer serve in any scouting position. If there has been criminal activity or child abuse involved this information is then forwarded to the D.A.'s office for prosecution.

BD The profit for every event thing is coming from the SE, it seems to have become a National policy ever since I was a DE, but 50% is plain ridiculous. The main responsibilites of any DE are MONEY and MEMBERSHIP and in that order, that too is National policy. If a DE has anytime leftover he can devote that to his district/s. Every district has their Key3 = Dist Chair, Dist Comm, and Dist Exec, these three working together have pretty much most of the power and can remove any district level volunteer they wish if they feel that the individual is not doing their job. As far as unit volunteers are concerned usually it is only if there is some kind of child endangerment or criminal activity will someone be removed but that is decided on by the SE after he has consulted the council legal advisors. The sad thing is that many times the SE will tell the DE to inform the volunteer and give him the letter of termination of his membership from the BSA. I had to do that once in my five years as a DE and it was not pleasent. The termination of any unit volunteers can only come from the SE.

vogel You are so correct the SM has an issue with the MBC he should talk to them directly and not put up barriers for you. This is indeed another example of troop or district politics, and the adult leaders in your troop should know better than to drag the youth through their own issues. This might be a good topic for your next roundtable.

Sherm It was when the corporate types took control which some believe go all the way back to the end of West's time. Definitely you can say by the early 70's when the great urban experiment failed, membership plummeted and the guys at National appealed to the big corporate money types to help bail the BSA out of the hole it dug for itself. Then came the glitzy corporate fund raisers with all their crass made in Japan crap, etc. The BSA stopped being an organization with a vision of helping youth become responsible citizens and adults and develop an appreciation for the outdoors, and instead the new vision at National became MONEY and MEMBERSHIP, as it still is today. What's next putting a McDonalds or KFC in Philmont, N. Tier or Seabase?? The new boyscout motto may soon become "Be Economically Astute!"

Hey Jay More than a just little has been lost from the WoodBadge course with the new watered down,one size fits all programs, management oriented WB21C. I have taken both courses as for WB21C, except for the friendships made, it offered very little in the way of practical ideas to be used in the field. Still it is all scouters have today, just make sure the staff is well trained and experienced with scouting in the field or you will just be wasting your time and money.

eisley "the requirement is for five names. I think they should be required to submit more." Quoting your own post. Look we make eagle candididates jump through a ridiculous amount of extra hurdles for that badge after they have completed all the rank, MB, POR requirements, and Eagle project. Then there are some districts do require not only letters of recommendation but from specific sources outside what is detailed by the BSA. The biggest joke is that in most councils no one from the council ever contacts any of the references, this I know from my time as a professional scouter and talking with pros from other councils, as one SE put it to me "It is just not a cost effective use of a council employees time." So put all the extra bells and whistles you want on these poor kids but it really is of no significance or value to the council or National.

Eamonn My God man that last post of yours is so out of touch with reality it is almost scary. If these convicted criminals are such "good and honest men" then why are they behind bars, I think you are way too close to the picture to be truly objective. It is like saying a Catholic priest pedophile is really a good and holy man, which he is not and neither are those guys behind bars. All of those guys who commit pedophilia, especially repeat offenders, should be chemically castrated on a nationwide basis. Pedophiles, like serial killers, etc., are mentally ill and need to be taken out of the general population for its own protection. The gay issue is another issue alltogether, however I do not think that there are myriads of gays and lesbians out there waiting or even wanting to join the BSA. The potential loss of chartering organizations and their membership units however could be bigger than you think. If there is a committed gay couple with a child in a pack and one or both wanted to be a leader that should be allowed IMO because there is not the threat factor there for parents to worry about. However that unit better be ready to lose members if my scenario became a reality, because people will be people.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

With my experience as a former DE, SM, VA and currently a Venturing CC/COR. I can tell you that district programs are NOT supposed to interfer with individual unit programs but provide additional opportuntities for training and activities, if the unit so desires, to participate in. A DE or even an SE does NOT have the authority to tell any unit they can not participate in another district or council event. The scouters firstmost and only true obligation is to their unit.

Scoutfish Sounds like you handle this issue in your pack with a lot of common sense, Kudos!

Vol scouter Well said and oh so true!!