BadenP

emb021 Come on now you already have BSA female leaders in the OA, do you really think coed boy scouts is really that far away? Most of the members of WOSM are coed and have been for years, it really is no longer a question of If as it is a question of When.

Barry Some interesting points but not entirely accurate. First of all coed boy scouting IMO is inevitable, especially seeing the dynamic firsthand with my Venturing crew. We have had six boys become Eagle scouts in our crew and I have seen the faces and heard the conversations of the girls at each ECOH we have held. They would love to have an opportunity to earn the Eagle themselves, and most of them are very capable of doing just that. I rather doubt that it would shake the institution of scouting all that much. As far as the "wealthy alumni setting the course of scouting", that is not entirely true. Most of those guys were former scouts and they quite frankly need the write off for their taxes so why not the BSA. Most of them really could care less about how the program is run, it is the recognition and write off that really concerns them.

SP As a father of a former girl scout I sure would not want a male to be my girls troop leader, just as I believe women should not be SM's, not because they are not qualified, but young girls and boys need strong role models of their own sex as they struggle figuring out where they belong and how to behave in society. If you want to volunteer for the GSUSA there are plenty of other opportunities, working on special events or a myriad of projects, etc, which I did when my daughter was in the program. IMO why would any male even want to be a GS troop leader, even if their daughter is in the troop, that would be the last thing your own daughter would want. Federalist I think your whole premise is full of holes and totally innaccurate. As far as the AHG website is concerned, "beware of wolves in sheeps clothing."

BDPT Believe what you want, these were based on actual firsthand experiences with the AHG, my good friend and his daughter, who are devout Catholics, and talking to AHG leaders and the local priest, the results are a matter of record. Whether you like the results or not is irrelevant to the facts as they stand, so you can get off your sanctimonius high horse already. From what this priest told us other Catholic churches in the Diocese were receiving similiar complaints about the AHG.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

BDPT The only false rumors here is the propaganda you are spreading. I have gone through this AHG sham with my friends daughter and have seen first hand in their publications and the way the girls are instructed what a false organization it truly is. Their use of brainwashing techniques disguised as "Christian Love". What a crock. You better look deeper into the inner workings of the AHG, read their pub's, go to their meetings, you will see the truth for yourself. There was a very small AHG troop at a local Catholic Church in our area and my friend sent copies of their literature to the pastor. The next day the pastor personally told the AHG they were no longer welcomed at his church. SR540 I agree AHG will soon be history, however with their new alliance with the Catholic Church I don't want to see them do any damage to Catholic girls duped by their elitist and racist literature.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Eagle92 The only problem with that idea is that many of the Cubbers and half the SM's and ASM's will not participate in the activities that they would not do with their pack or troop, and that kind of brings the whole group dynamic down with them sitting on the sidelines. That is one reason why we started this more rigorous Powderhorn training in the first place, it gives the Venturing people more of a sense of ownership, stretching their comfort zone, and that this is THEIR program.

SR540 The difference was with those other organizations that they were NOT affiliated with the BSA, nor did they want to be. They were specifically started by certain religious groups who felt the BSA was open to too many "undesirable faith traditions" and did not want their children exposed to those beliefs. The AHG is in the same category. Just because they have linked to the Catholic Church and the BSA you give them much to much credit. The reason they did that was because their organizations membership was dying on the vine, now these associations with the Catholic Church and BSA supposedly give them more credibility. The reality is that even with these new partnerships their membership still remains very small, and IMO eventually they will disappear because of their exclusivity.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

It is interesting to me how WB and Powderhorn have now become the beacons for being the "best trained" leaders, because it is just not true. I have done WB and Powderhorn, so what, am I now one of the best scout leaders? As far as Powderhorn is concerned it began as a training ONLY for Venturing leaders to give them some real exposure to and experience with high adventure activities. Now that is open to Cub and Boy Scout leaders its content has been really watered down,IMO. In our council we hold a special Powderhorn course each year open only to Venturing leaders that really emphasizes high adventure experiences, much more than the present course does, because our council Venturing crews adults and crew officers wanted it to concentrate solely on the Venturing program. Its reputation has spread and now we have pack and troop leaders asking us if they could come to our training instead and we politely have to tell them no.

SR540 Look I have no problem with AHG exsisiting for those few it is open to, however equating it to the BSA or GSUSA is plain ridiculous. Doing joint activities between them and a BSA unit I feel is wrong because of their elitist exclusive nature. Rooster & SR540 the BSA and GSUSA are open to all boys and girls to have a safe place to have fun and learn about others. AHG teaches that non Christians are evil and should not be associated with, and publish that in their literature. If you want to associate with that kind of group be my guest, but then that makes you part of their intolerant and prejudiced mindset, guilty by association.

My question is why does the BSA even have a Family Life MB? This is not something you can learn from a book or by talking to a stranger. It is learned by observation and experience both good and bad, and talking with your family members. IMO get rid of the badge entirely.

Scoutnut and Ana are correct there are no crossover ceremonies from Web1 to Web2 because it is the same program. As an ex WDL right at the time of the change from a one year program to a two year one all I can say it was a huge mistake on the part of BSA. They should have created a seperate, program instead.

Ah Rooster You don't see any Buddist, Muslim, Hindu, or foreign born girls in it now do you, thats because they are not open to them or to any girl not born in the USA. That is just plain racist, that is why my friend pulled his daughter out PDQ. To have any BSA unit associating with them is a violation of our own DRP. There again we are aware of your own intolerant Pentacostal religious position Rooster. The AHG sponsoring organization is a biased, intolerant religious cult that has no place in modern society , neither does the AHG. If anyone doesn't know what they are talking about it is you Rooster.

Yeah I gotta agree with Basement, AHG is nothing more than a highly ultra conservative and exclusive isolationist religious group using a youth group to disguise its true purpose of converting these little girls to their way of thinking. A friend of mine had his daughter in AHG and pulled her out when she brought home some bigoted racial propaganda. As far as the GSUSA is concerned, my daughter was a member for five years, I was asked by the local council director if I would help out on several events every year. I never felt unwelcome, in fact I helped them organize their 100 year anniversary a couple of months ago, and was recognized at the council dinner with a plaque. So no they are NOT predjudiced against male volunteers. Seattle Pioneer you are so wrong about the AHG they are prejudiced against anyone who is not American born, those girls are being trained to become intolerant bigots and is an organization you should avoid entirely unless you want your daughter exposed to their special brand of hate mongering disguised as true American values.

lrsap Congrats, SM conferences were one of my favorite part of boy scouts. How about this one, ask the boy,"What do the words On My Honor mean to you personally in your own life?", I always got some great answers with that one.

JFL I think you are looking at this through rose colored glasses. If the council is forcing units to sell an overpriced product with little consumer demand they are not looking out for your unit's best interests. As far as being part of the council,sometime go in and try to talk with your SE to suggest some changes and see what reaction you get. The council is NOT there for the purpose of working for you, they are there to make sure your unit and its leaders are staying within boundaries set by National.

The problem as I see it is,as most scouters would attest, most MB's done at camp are done quickly, simplistically, and NOT very throughly . They are usually done by a camp staffer who is not qualified to be a MBC,under 18yo, and it is just a matter of checking off on a list with minimal effort on the part of the scout, as the scouts in my old troop used to tell me. Academic MB's can be better done, and should be done at home with some real effort on the part of the scout under the guidance of a qualified MBC. It is bad enough that the BSA almost gives away the Eagle Badge these days, allowing subpar Eagle Projects, fudging on the requirements, allowing MB mills at summer camp, etc., etc. It is really unfair and unethical to the boys who really put a strong dedicated effort into obtaining the Eagle to have them see other scouts slide by with minimum effort, who get all their MB's at camp ten at a time, who paint a bench or pick up weeds at a park for their Eagle Project be given the same award. Now we are going to turn boy scout camps into residential schools with seperate facilities so they can sit on their as#es all day. This style of camp is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad. BP and Bill Hillcourt must be turning over in their graves.

The kids want the outdoors-Eagle92 not necessarily- Twocub Sorry Twocub but Eagle92 is 100% correct, the outdoor program is and has been the backbone of the entire scouting program since its inception. You may have a few boys who do not want to camp or be in the outdoors and my answer to that is that there are other organizations for them. Too many parents are forcing their boys into scouting to "make a man out of them" or "for them to become an Eagle to help them get into college or a good job." I have heard this all to often in my years as a scout leader and after talking to the boy I tell the parents both of these are not good reasons to become a scout, and suggest they find another outlet for their son. Unfortunately what we are seeing in too many troops today is that a large percentage of the scouts hate the outdoors, as do many of the current crop of scoutmasters, and the result is a troop program which is classroom oriented, academic in nature, in other words is NOT in any way a true boy scout program. So it should be no great mystery why the BSA continues to lose boy scouts and troops on a larger scale every year. The new "Cupcake Scouting"(Kudu's term)sadly is becoming the norm rather than the exception, and the way National and CSE Mazzuca are dealing with it will only make this situation much worse. This Eagle Camp is just a precursor of things to come IMO.

momof2 No I never use those terms with youth, however the youth are using those words. However many of us involved in scouting for many years have witnessed, as Kudu puts it, "the dumbing down of the boy scout program." National has lost its way and as a result the numbers of boy scouts and troops continues to dwindle at an alarming rate each year. The further the program gets away from the outdoor program of BP and William Hillcourt the less interest it holds for the boys. This thread is just another example of whats wrong with boy scouts today, it has become a club for boys who have no interest in what scouting is supposed to be, an outdoor oriented organization where they learn how to appreciate and protect our natural resources, the outdoor skills to live within our forests and wilderness areas, and the leadership skills that they will use for their entire lives. This Eagle camp is just another example of "powderpuff" scouting. This kind of powder puff Eagle camp is typical of the cupcake scouting that National has been promoting under the guidance of CSE Mazzuca and his staff.

This just points just how watered down, and ludicrous the boy scout advancement program has become, and to have this at an outdoor camp is just plain outrageous. Now these cupcake scouts working on Eagle can say they have been to camp, just never went outside or learned any outdoor skills. They ought to name the place Camp Nerd Scout, where your boy can become an Eagle without ever going outside and in complete air conditioned comfort. Heck, they just ought to put the whole scouting program online, a complete virtual program, so their mommies don't have to worry about their little boy getting a boo-boo.

Even if someone is wearing a uniform with badges they never earned, who is going to question/challenge them? or really even care?

Fred and OGE It is indeed part of the SM's responsiblity to make sure that every boy in his troop has everything they need to successfully complete the BOR, and this was discussed in detail in my SM training. OGE, SM's are supposed to be able to think outside the box,that is what leads to a successful and fun filled program for the troop. Just because it is not in print on responsibilities of a SM in a SM conference doesn't mean that he should not make sure the boy is ready and has all his documentation, that is just common sense. No wonder we continue to lose so many boy scouts each year. BSA pub's may not have that aspect listed because they feel a SM should be able to ascertain certain things for themselves. Once again the handbook is NOT, NOT required for any BOR.

To answer Brewmeisters comparison, while the percentage profit on popcorn may be higher GS cookies outsell BS popcorn at least 100 to one, multiply that out by the number of girl scouts vs the number of boy scouts selling popcorn and its no contest. How often and in how many locations do you even see boy scouts selling popcorn compared to girl scouts selling cookies anymore, it is not even close. Frankly it is easier for a potential customer to let go of a five dollar bill for some cookies than a $20 bill for some popcorn. The BSA needs to come up with an equal quality and similiarly priced and popular product if they ever want to have a truly successful National fundraiser.

I have to agree with Scouter, in my council at least Trails End popcorn is close to the end of its days. Less than 1/4 of all units will sell it because no matter how much a potential customer supports scouting laying out $15-$20 for popcorn, compared to $4 for a box of GS cookies, is just a little hard to do. At roundtables scouters have complained about ever decreasing sales with their unit over the last five years.

KC9 That last quote was not directed at you rather the core group in this situation and the lack of prep by the SM. Isn't that what the SM conference is for, to make sure the boy is ready for the BOR? That is also a good learning moment, if necessary. When I was a SM doing conferences I had a checklist to go over with the boy, including making sure he had all the info handy that might be asked of him at the BOR. I will never understand why some SM's do not go that extra simple step to make sure the boy is prepared, those are the obstacles I was talking about.

skeptic As a former resident of California I have experienced those coastal storms personally and with my troop at the time, I think you made the right decision. Our troop experienced a terrible mudslide from the storm, lost alot of equipment as well. The only postive note was that the local authorities allowed the troop to assist with rescue and aid efforts.