BadenP

SR540 This is not about criticizing the company standards but their methodology. Every successful large company always takes input from their employees, and management who work daily with the specific issues before developing and mandating new procedures, that's standard business management 101. The BSA have employees and management who have never even been in the field coming up with some ridiculous and out of touch rules and publications for the volunteers who deliver the program daily and demand they be followed, the GSS22 comes to mind for example. You worked for a bank, good for you, and we have all seen how extremely poor management has led the biggest financial institutions into the largest banking crisis and our country into the biggest recession in our history. If some whistleblowers at these banks had not come forward we would be in a worse recession than Europe. Look at JPM/Chase who have recently lost unaccounted for billions of dollars. The biggest mistake Obamas people did was to bail those jackals out and in turn gave the government money to their top executives as bonuses. Yeah that's the kind of example we want to follow as a country.

Bobwhite One question I have is are you paid by the National BSA or are all your regional, and national activites strictly volunteer? The reason I ask is that I have been on both sides as a DE & Sr. DE for almost five years and a volunteer for over 25 years. I too have worked some National people and while most are very pleasant, a few very knowledgable, all of them share one thing, the fear of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line and agree with everything their boss wants. I have sat in two National department meetings where the employees were told this is how we are going to implement these new changes without ever asking these dedicated employees what their opinions or ideas were before the policies were written. Yes there are dedicated people at National but most of them have very little input into what is going on. I have worked for Bob Mazzucca as my first SE, met and talked with Wayne Brock twice. As far as my experience goes Mazzucca has always been in scouting for himself, his own self interests and to look prestigious, and it worked because he became CSE, even though he really never really cared much about the volunteers or the pro's working in the field to deliver the program. Wayne Brock ,IMO, is a very nice and polite guy but lacks any real vision for the future of scouting or the tenacity to effect any real change. I hope I am wrong and he surprises us all but I am afraid he will be spending most of his time putting out all the fires Mazzucca created.

Venvidi While I do agree with you however the SM is still the rudder of the ship, the boys can plan the events, the parents can provide backup as needed and the committee give their support, but if the SM is too burnt out, out of shape, and too lazy to make sure the program stays on course and is delivered in a way that gives the boys the adventure they deserve then the boys will walk, which is happening here. BD The tenure of these troubled SM's vary between 5 to 10 years. The love the "power and prestige" their position gives them but don't want to do anything and IMO could care less about the boys. They are not about to look for a replacement and don't want to share their "power". In the final analysis I am willing to bet in the end the SE and Council Pres. will recommend replacing these guys to the IH's & COR's.

SS IMO, the problem is that in too many troops they just want a live body in the SM spot and in this day and age most people have little to no time to volunteer or will not even consider being a SM. The result is there are many less than stellar candidates in the position of SM and the boys are the ones who suffer, enduring poor quality programs, eagle mills, etc. In my own crew there are four 14 year old boys who left their troop and literally begged us to join our crew because they were doing little to no camping in the troop, and because the SM felt that twice a year was enough experience in the outdoors. These guys are finishing their Life ranks and working towards Eagle. At the same time are also working on their Venturing Ranger award. The last thing I want to see is the crew become an alternative boy scout troop, which it will not. I had coffee with the COR of the troop these guys belonged to and he told me they just could not find any real quality candidates to be the SM, the guy they have now was the only one to volunteer. The CO is aware of their dropping numbers but are stuck for a solution short of shutting down the troop. I told him that would be tragic and the boys deserve better. Three of our crew adult leaders have agreed to be willing to temporarily volunteer some of their time to make sure the troop gets a better quality outdoor program as long as the CO starts making a much more concerted effort to find a SM replacement very soon. The COR thanked us very much. My gripe is why does the council not do more to make sure these troubled troops have quality leaders giving quality programs and not wait until it reaches a crisis before taking any action like they are now, but IMO it is too little too late.

With Wayne Brock taking over as the new CSE and who has a long history of just being a yes man to Mazzucca do any of you really expect any significant changes or new ideas to come out of National? If you do then I have a bridge in NYC I can sell you real cheap.

Eagle732 In my district alone over half the troops are on their way to extinction. At the last RT many of those SM's were there, all of them were over 250 lbs some topping 300 and all they did was complain about all the work they had to do as a SM, and all the camping the boys wanted to do but they were holding down to a minimum the outings because "We aren't 21 anymore". IMO those guys are robbing their boys of the true scouting experience, and all of them should be replaced. At the last council board meeting the issue of diminishing troops councilwide was a topic of grave concern to the SE, I happened to mention my RT experience and the board voted to have the DE and DComm for each district do a study and some visits to each troop, especially those troops in trouble, in their districts then do an assessment of the quality of the program being offered. The SE and Council president both felt that if necessary they would personally meet with the IH and COR of each of these troubled troops and suggest some changes to improve their boy scout program. Time will tell if this will really work. I sure hope so for those boys sake if nothing else. Some of my good friends in other councils have told me that this problem is very common in their councils as well, I sure hope that this is not becoming a trend nationally.

Twocub's post really does say it all. Money is what makes the National Office go round and they will NEVER let go control of the reins to volunteers. Who would pay all those outrageous salaries SE's and the National heads make after all?

Eng61 That is because too many troops are adult run, too many troops offer little in the way of learning and experiencing outdoor skills first hand, too many troops have corrupted their program to a "classroom" experience making model rockets and robots and taking field trips to Microsoft stores. I have former boy scout teens in my Venturing crew who have told me they have NEVER had the opportunities for the kind of outdoor activities we do in their old troops, and some of them are Eagle Scouts. It is not the boys fault but rather the lackluster program that most troops offer them these days. Too many SM's would rather be sitting their fat butts on an easy chair at home drinking beer than giving their scouts an exciting and challenging program. The program is BROKEN and only a handful of SM's seem to even give a dam* anymore. Part of it is Nationals fault for the totally inadequate training of troop leaders, and the radical shift in the focus of the program. Part of the fault lies with the troop adult leaders who do the minimum required of them and then are so amazed and angry when the boys in their troop follow their own example.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

moose With your love of scouting I think you would be much better suited working directly with the kids in a unit, most district and council positions are more politics and squabbling then anything else. Even as a DE the best times I ever had was as Camp Director, Cub Day Camp WDL, working with the OA lodge and JLT. These were a nice diversion from all the work required organizing the FOS campaign, numerous school nights recruitment, putting out district fires(problems) which is what the DE is supposed to do. However working with my district volunteers, unit leaders, and the kids was always the most rewarding to me. In other words bigger is not always better.

Shortridge is so right most lodges do a pretty poor job keeping the sash N dash members informed and getting them active. That was one serious problem with the lodge I was asked to be staff advisor for by the SE. Once an effort was made to organize both some fun and some service activities and invite that group to participate on a regular basis membership remained both high and active. The problem I have seen is that many lodges do too few activities to entice their members to stay active.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Dean This kind of stuff has been around a long time. The councils first and primary goal is to make MONEY, everything else is secondary. As a DE we were required by our SE to make at least a 25% profit on every district activity we did.

All these examples just prove how screwed up the system truly is. In Tokala's example the unit is terminated and it is the boys who suffer, most if not all of them and their parents will be so disgusted with the BSA they will take their boys out for good. IMO the SE should require the CO to remove the guilty leader immediately. If the charges are serious enough then then SE terminates that leaders membership in the BSA permanently and informs the CO of his action. I agree with retraining all the other leaders in a more intense in person youth protection training than what is currently available on line.

I have to agree with most of the advice already given to you. As far as getting all or even a group of COR's together over this issue would be a Herculean task, why, because most COR's do not even know they are COR's and have never taken COR training to become aware of what their duties truly are. Most of them are just names on paper and that is why so many councils can run amok without worrying about reprisals from the CO's. Unless you know all or most of the other unit leaders feel the same way as you on this issue and are willing to commit their COR's to join in there really isn't much you can do alone. Whomever you choose as your new CO make sure they understand their responsibilities,and are willing to fufill them,and they go to CO training. On the flip side an active and involved CO may also call into question some of the things you are doing in the troop,a two edged sword. Whoever becomes your new COR really should be an active member of the CO's organization, even though it is not required it will be a HUGE benefit to the smooth running of your troop and maintaining a good relationship/tie in with the CO. In units with CO's who are mainly nothing more than a name on paper and have no buy in to the unit is when the problems start. Pick a solid, established organization for your next CO.

Does scouting need to be more tech savy?? Why? The program or essence of the scouting experience is not about becoming tech savy it is about learning leadership, organizational, and outdoor skills, and having a great time doing it. Technology is great in its place, however in scouting it is nothing more than a hindrance or a crutch. Case in point on a recent crew camping trip a group went out with a new GPS device, while another went out with map and compass and they were going to meet at a designated landmark. Well the GPS groups device went on the blink and they were stuck which way to go so instead they reversed course and went back to camp frustrated. The map and compass group not only got to that landmark they were privileged to witness the birth of a fawn in the process. So for me at least the real essence of scouting is the communing with and experience living in the natural world with all its majesty. All the rest is really window dressing.

KUDU really said it all quite well, and that is one reason the Eagle rank has become so less prestigious an accomplishment in recent years. The BSA has altered the Eagle requirements to the point most any scout can receive the rank with minimal effort. A sad commentary on todays scouting culture.

SP As others have already said your position as that units commissioner precludes you from sitting on any BOR/EBOR for that unit for ethical and professional reasons if nothing else. Your reasoning of it being a holiday weekend,or the CC asked you does not change the situation in any way. The way you seem to be skirting around the issue makes me think it is more of an ego thing than anything else. (You could sit on an AHG BOR without any conflict of interest however, lol.)

john ponz I find it so difficult to believe that you really think that the dribble in your last post has any validity whatsoever, because it does not even come close to the reality of what the OA is or stands for. You john and those of the same ilk are the true source of the problem in the OA today trying to shape the organization to your own misinformed and delusional vision. However I am willing to bet that you are not even active in your lodge, or if you are that the other adults keep you in line. John one thing you do bring to this discussion is to validate my earlier post about adult scouters in the OA who are hellbent in bringing down the organization and maintaining total control of the lodge, not even giving the boys a chance to develop leadership and programming skills. That is truly the saddest outcome of all. Scouters like yourself should restrict yourselves to your own units if only to minimize the damage your kind of attitude causes in the BSA.

acco I think you don't understand what I was saying. The problem in too many lodges, especially in the ones I have been associated with, is that the adults are in total control, just like many of the current troops, shaping them and organizing them with their own vision rather than letting the youth officers and members lead and develop a program for the lodge. The question of a so called Christian objection to the OA again is a fabrication of certain adult scouters who misinform parents about what the OA is and does as my previous post points out.

We wonder why the OA has gotten this bad rap or stigma about it, and why lodges keep going under, and why boy scouts know so little about the OA or could care less about joining, and it always comes down to one thing the ADULTS. The adult scouters who try to control and manipulate what goes on in the lodge, trying to recreate the lodges of their youth. The adult parents who manufacture these untrue horror stories about the OA being anti Christian and making the boys endure these "harsh and humiliating rituals", "swearing a blood oath to false gods". This nonsense really has gotten so out of hand that it is sickening and in the process is destroying what once was a highly sought after honor in the BSA. IMO adult scouters should have no part in the planning or implementation of the OA program. The lodge officers should report only to the council lodge advisor appointed by the SE who can help guide them in how to plan and organize their events. Eliminate chapter advisors as a position and in its place have a pool of adult volunteers who have expertise in various skills which the lodge officers can call upon for help only when needed. In my own experiences with four different lodges whenever there was a serious problem or situation it was ALWAYS caused by an adult lodge advisor or a SM trying to control how something was going to be done. If we want our boys to grow into true leaders we adults need to learn to back off more and more and let the boys lead. Then nonsensical non issue threads like this one will become things of the past.

NJ To answer your question briefly, YES it is his job to make sure the BSA is still around for another 100 years rather than watch it continue to degrade and continue to diminish as it has been for the last two decades plus.

A very interesting debate indeed. Quoting BP's statements IMO gives us insight to our true scouting roots or core program. The problem is that many of todays scouters and parents use the argument that those roots are over 100 years old and are no longer relevant to todays society, thereby justifying their troops "sedentary" outdoor programs. IMO a good PR campaign by National reemphasizing these core scouting roots/values and changing scouter trainings to emphasize them in troop programsis what is truly needed in the BSA these days to attract new members and keep the ones we already have in the program.

qwazse WELL SAID!!! What are these sash purists so afraid of anyway? I would love to see these scouts promote the OA at troop and community events by proudly displaying their sashes. To me it is clearly a win-win situation for the boys and the lodges.

AHG Mom There you go again self promoting that AHG propaganda bandwagon. Nice Christian girls holding guns ready to go blast things, something that all good "Christian" girls should aspire to. The sad part of all this is the role the BSA is playing. What a crock of hooey. Give me the GSUSA any day of the week.

NJ My opinion is solely based on the two personal interactions I have had with him. I did NOT say he would be a good or bad CSE, time will tell us that, just that I don't expect any major changes or reforms to the BSA by him. I really do hope he proves me wrong, and he breathes some new life into the BSA that it so desperately needs.

Wayne Brock, CSE was little more than a yes man to Mazzucca's ideas to change scouting. I have met and talked with him twice, a nice guy, but not very articulate, slow on the uptake and really lacks a vision for the future of the BSA. So it will be much more of the same with little change and sadly little reform or inovations.