BadenP

jeffrey This issue is ONLY about wearing the OA sash to other scout functions, it has NOTHING to do with insignia wear. The OA sash is a symbol of membership, it publicizes a boys membership in the OA lodge. If a boy is proud of that membership and wants to show it, why not, because of a couple of lines in a handbook written by a bunch of old farts at National who want to treat the OA as some kind of secret fraternal order, give me a break. If you three want to get all anal on this issue go right ahead and together we can watch the continuing demise of the OA. The OA needs to be promoted much more than it is in ALL councils, it needs to be viewed as a source of fun and service for the boys. What it does NOT NEED is a bunch old fogey scouters dictating what how and when each lodge should be run and maintaining an iron hand on the control switch because that will be the final death stroke for the OA.

acco, jeffrey, emb021 Man you guys have some real issues don't you, lol. Look as dkurt said, "Do the rules governing sash wear make sense?" The reality is that in many councils, and in my attending several NOAC's the OA is losing ground, losing membership, districts and even some councils have lost interest in even promoting the OA. In the four councils in my area alone, two have closed their lodges and the other two are struggling to just hold on to their lodges. In a couple of conferences between these councils OA adult and youth leaders,one distinct issue keeps popping up, the adult OA leaders dominating the running of the lodges and trying to mold them into their own childhood image of the lodges of their youth. Listen the BSA has been changing their boy scout program to try to curtail the continued downward spiral in numbers and troops. The OA is in the same boat only it is sinking faster. If some new ideas, more promotion, less adult control and more youth control of the program are not infused into the OA and soon the OA will become an inactive, meaningless, and hollow symbol. You three may think you have the best interest of the OA at heart but your arguments are outdated, counterproductive, and somewhat anal retentive. WWW

AHG MOM and SP The article AHG Mom references in her post just proves my point even more, the Catholic Church is guilty of an unwarranted smear campaign against the GSUSA. SP your unfounded and untrue accusations just go to prove you are as narrow minded, prejudicial, and intolerant as the Catholic Church to which you belong. Both of you IMO are poor examples of scouters and the ideals of scouting. You both can take your bigoted and intolerant attitudes and preach them somewhere else, they are totally inappropriate in scouting, and I really feel the sorriest for your kids being raised hearing this intolerance on both your parts. Absolutely disgusting!

Acco Your answer is way too simplistic and does NOTHING to support your reasoning Mr. Boyce I think you too have missed the point of this thread entirely.

Aw fred When you don't have a leg to stand on you resort to insults. As Jesus said of the temple priests of his time they showed off with public displays of their "holiness" yet their worship was hollow and without meaning or understanding. If you do not hear about hellfire and damnation in the mass, then I think you are either not paying attention to the Eucharistic and other prayers used or like many Catholics these days not even bothering to go to mass on a regular basis, in either case it is a personal interpretation built on sand without any foundation and does not reflect true catholic theology. However this thread is about the Catholic Churchs unnecessary and vicious attacks on the GSUSA and to me that speaks volumes about the hierarchy of the Catholic church. We can debate theology on another thread, I wonder what you all would do and say if the Catholic bishops severed all ties to the BSA for being anti-Catholic?? Would you be willing to give up your BSA memberships if threatened with excommunication?? Sadly most of you would probably say yes. Beav, Let me tell you about the wonderful Catholic clergy from my own experiences. As a youth two priests abused two of my very good friends multiple times, one of them tried with me and received a powerful kick to the groin instead. These cases went to the Bishop where he told the parents that it was just the boys word against the priests, who were "holy men". He transferred these two priests to other churches. So don't tell me about "growing up" you backwood hick, the Catholic priesthood and hierarchy is nothing short of an abomination to both humanity and God as is their false doctrines. They are not Christian brothers by any stretch of the imagination and do not even recognize the validity of any other Christian tradition or ordination outside their own.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Beav and Perdid As Catholics you do know exactly what I was saying is true, deny it all you want, much like the hierarchy in Rome does. Vatican II was a much needed reform movement and offered some real possibility of reform and openess however it was never widely accepted or ever reached its full potential due to some powerful Catholic hierarchy in Rome, especially the current Pope who seems hellbent to bring the Catholic Church back to its pre 1960 status. Beav-you can tell others to keep their opinions to themselves but I suggest you do the same, espcially your folksy backwoods religious views,legal opinions and scouting regulations. It truly has to make you wonder as the few catholics who protest the loudest in this thread have not offered any counter references to support their opinions of the Catholic Church. Maybe it is because the world has seen on the news, in print, and in legal cases firsthand for the last ten years at least just how much coverup the Vatican has done with pedophile priests, bishops and cardinals, including the Popes own brother, it all reeks of corruption and dishonsety from the highest levels at the Vatican from the supposedly "incorruptable one true church", what a joke that is eh Beav. The facts speak clearly for themselves and God will be the final judge, however you catholics maybe surprised to learn that you are not the only ones in heaven. Call me bigoted if you wish but I have been on both sides of these issues and have found out the truth about the institution calling itself the "one true church", which is the biggest fallacy of all time.

fred First you need to become more familiar with the English language, you cannot be bigoted against an institution, you can be bigoted against Catholic lay people or Catholic priests, etc. My prejudice is against the institutional Catholic Church at the Vatican which continues to delude and put fear into millions of Catholics world wide with threats of eternal damnation and hellfire by espousing false doctrines and a totally twisted and false interpretation of the Bible. I am not bigotted against Catholics and I have many good friends who are priests and others who are regular Catholic Church goers. Fred to make it easy on you start with looking up on wikipedia "homosexual priests", they will give several references of studies done showing percentages ranging from a low of 15% to a high of 80%, then go to any of the references they provide and see the truth for yourself. These figures have also been discussed among my priest associates and other ordained clergy like myself and makes for some very interesting discussions. This is not some deep dark secret hidden away in Rome but a topic that has been throughly investigated and discussed very openly. Fred nothing is worse than a slam given by a zealot like yourself with absolutely no basis in fact to support your claim, in fact I could claim that you were bigoted against anyone who was not Catholic, but that would put me in the same category as yourself and I would not ever make that claim, even if it were true. I applaud the GSUSA for standing up to these few overzealous and radical bishops who are looking for any way to defer attention away from their ownchurhes heinous acts. Pax Fred!

Beav The evidence has been documented in print with National magazines, books,legal cases, and tv programs. If you as a Catholic wish to deny the truth that is your perogative, but that was one of many reasons why I left the catholic church and it is high time the laity call their clergy to account for their many and heinous misdeeds or they can continue to swallow the untrue pablum catholic clergy feed you. It truly is sad to me to see so many catholics who can not see or refuse to believe the truth. That 60%+ figure has been documented by the way by the Vatican itself and other reputable sources articles which can be found easily online at your own convienience. Beav, you really disappoint me but I can live with it, as the scripture says "they have eyes but they do not see, ears but they do not hear". Enjoy your own spiritual blindness Beav.

pere I gave you all kinds of sources,still available on line the Vatican Bank scandal is not only online but was on every news program and newspaper in the country. They were not accusations but truth, in fact Interpol seized three million dollars of the Vatican Banks funds as a result of the investigation. Do you live on a deserted island or just too lazy pere geesshh.

Pere As far as gay priests, after a 5 min internet check, showed there are numerous references listed, including wikipedia which states, from various source, that gay priests number 15-80% whereas the other sources cited figures on the higher end of that scale. Vatican Bank, the NCR online and numerous other sources describe the scandals in vivid detail. However my point was to show the total lack of honesty, openness, accountability, and credibility in dealing with these issues on the part of the Vatican. So the GSUSA attack is nothing more than another diversionary tactic on their part. Again, the GSUSA is losing numbers at about the same rate as the BSA, the real reason is that most kids these days are so tied to their twitter, facebook, etc., they are not as interested anymore in learning anything outside the scope of their I-pads. A sad commentary on our technocentric society today.

catdad Handouts are always great. In the past we have done knot magnets, the kids are taught to tie a small square knot, glue it to a small piece of wood with a small magnetic strip glued on the other side. Cost about five cents each, and we had a line of kids & adults all day long. We recruited 35 new cub scouts that day. Photos, handbooks,uniforms, camping equipment all on display will really attract people. If you are really ambitious you can make a dutch oven cobbler. Good Luck.

Pere The number of homosexual priests was published in two catholic magazines,(Catholic Register & American Catholic) about two years ago, a study that was initiated by the Vatican as they were dealing with pedophile issues among their clergy. The Vatican Bank from a report published by Homeland Security about 3-6 months ago. The reason for presenting these issues were not to stir debate but to show that most American & European Catholics take what the Church says with a grain of salt because of a lack of clerical credibility, and a total lack of accountability. Why should they be taken seriously. The GSUSA will not be greatly affected by the bishops ridiculous charges anyway you look at it, and it shows these bishops to be the truly petty people they are.

Pere Published facts from Catholic publications 1)Catholic women are forbidden to use any form of artificial birth control, yet 85% of American and European Catholic women do. 2)All Catholics are required to attend mass every Sunday under threat of mortal sin yet Catholics average attendance at Sunday mass is once a month. 3) The Catholic hierarchy has declared homosexuality a grave mortal sin, yet over 60%(conservatively) of American priests have admitted to being practicing homosexuals. 4)The Vatican Bank has been listed by our own government as the 4th leading criminal money laundering institution in the world. The Vatican and the church hierarchy can't even get their own members to pay any attention to them. So aside from the obvious credibility issues do you really think Anyone, especially Catholics, give a you know what about what some American bishops think about the GSUSA, especially the GSUSA themselves? Highly doubtful.(Except maybe SP & AHG Mom, lol) If anything this persecution by the catholic bishops will only further alienate these bozos from their flocks and the GSUSA will come out as the victim of a unsubstantiated Catholic witchhunt.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

AHG Mom & SP Please stop referring to the AHG as an alternative girl scouting group, it is not even close to being one. AHG is a religious propaganda group preaching prejudicial and misinformation to its girls. You and SP's constant propagandizing of the AHG in this forum is truly disingenuine, full of misinformation and your denying the true mission of the organization does a disservice to scouting and the members of this forum.

Interesting that SP lays his bomb in his post then disappears from the fray, maybe not as committed to his viewpoint as he thought. scoutnut: good post with pertinent and relevant points. In the greater scheme of things no one really cares what the Catholic bishops have to say about the GSUSA, including many Catholics.

I disagree with you Beav that the AHG will become a "larger organization" aside for some Catholic churches no other group is trying to break down their doors to form an alliance. The Catholic Church is looking for any reason to drop the GSUSA because they will not cowtow to the demands of some American Bishops or give them any say in their programs while the AHG on the other hand is so small a group that they desperately need to form alliances with the BSA and all the churches they can in order to even be able to survive. As far as drop in numbers in the GSUSA they just like the BSA continue to lose members each year because in the words of some youth at my church the BSA and GSUSA programs just aren't as fun or relevant anymore, their words not mine. IMO the Catholic Church hierarchy seems to be looking for any legal/moral fight they can to detract attention from the still ongoing worldwide priest pedophile cases, nun investigations, etc. It always give me a good laugh to hear a Catholic priest, bishop, or cardinal lecture on morality especially to a youth organization they stand on very shaky ground.

BDPT Right, SP posted this ONLY for the newsworthy content it presents not for any other personal reasons, you got to be kidding. This was NOT newsworthy at all just another example of propaganda yellow journalism with little fact and a great deal of innuendo. Yeah SP's motives and intent are indeed quite clear.

Barry What you said is very true and is why IMO the boy scout program has suffered so much for so long dumbing down the program and de-emphasizing the outdoor program to accomodate these unprepared new scouts. Even so the number of boy scout troops and boy scouts have been on a continual decline for decades. There are serious internal problems with both the cub scout and boy scout programs that if National continues to ignore them will result in the BSA programs becoming all fluff with little substance, and continuing drops in numbers.

SP Your constant criticism of the GSUSA with negative, and untrue propaganda is really getting annoying and tiring. Your self promotion of the AHG always leaves out all of their programs shortcomings. Look if you want AHG at your church fine, just don't keep blowing smoke up everyones kester here about why you think they are better than the GSUSA. The AHG is in NO way a scouting program for girls so please stop presenting it as such. As I have said before the Catholic Diocese in my area has decided to ban AHG from all of their churches. You SP are not the spokesman for the entire Catholic Church, even though you seem to think you are.

Brew I think you missed the point of the original post, this is NOT an issue of cubs vs scouts rather the issue is that there are or should be distinct differences between the two programs in what is expected of the boy. Too many Webelos dens,IMO, do NOT properly prepare the boys for transition into a troop but are run like a wolf or bear den, and many times by a woman who treat the boys more like a mom instead of developing in them a sense of self reliance, maturity, and independence. It is not the female WDL's fault either since she has no experience with a boy scout troop as a youth or an adult. Like it or not Cubs have created a generation of "cupcake" boy scouts. If you want the Webelos to successfully transition to Boy Scouts then you have to run the Webelos program the way it supposed to be done, like a patrol not like another cub den, which too many packs do these days. I was a WDL for two years, all my boys successfully went into boy scouts, all but three became Eagles and those three made it to Life. When those boys went to their troops they were as ready as they could be for the boy scout troop, and that is the PRIMARY goal for all WDL's.

BD I have to agree with SP's post, scouting is about a boy learning sometimes you have to fail before you can succeed. With my sons it was time to let go and teach them to be proactive, not to give up so easily if you really want to succeed. Too many Webelos come to a troop after having mom and dad doing everything for them in Cubs with little to no confidence, and a lack of understanding that you are not given anything in Boy Scouts you have to work hard and earn it yourself. The SM in your example was right on in telling you to back off and let the boy learn for himself or get the assistance he may need to complete a task. In my troop as a kid my SM was the same way, and it taught me maturity, confidence, independence, and a real feeling of accomplishment. I am thankful my boys had similiar experiences in their troop. Nothing I hate to see more than a SM who holds each boy by the hand and nursemaids them through the program.

Eagle92 While you might be right, in my case it was IMO what helped me more than exceed all my goals, especially in money and numbers, every year for five years. All of my SE's had no problem with me being in the field and why they asked me to be CD for three years, appointed me staff advisor for the OA and JLT, and why all the schools in my districts gave me an open door to giving presentations to their youth. Being in the field also gave me the very strong support I received from the volunteers in my districts. Even though my DE style may not have been the SOP in the BSA none of my SE's or FD's could ever deny its effectiveness. In fact when I decided to leave the profession my then SE offered me the FD position or a transfer to any other council I wanted, so I would have to consider my career as a professional scouter as a complete success.

Bando That scouting pro who interviewed gave you a load of crap! In my first year as a DE I was asked to be a WDL for the Cub Day Camp in one of my districts since their WDL was hospitalized, and it was the best PR move I ever made. My February's were always booked with Blue and Golds. I was invited to every ECOH in both districts. I organized the career speakers at the local high schools for the Explorer program, and was ASKED by the school districts to give a BSA program presentation to the youth every year, along with my GSUSA counterpart. I was a camp director for 3 years with a great staff each time. There were also many other opportunities in working directly with the youth and volunteers. Still I had my FOS and unit creation responsibilities, was the OA staff advisor, JLT staff advisor,as well as giving countless scouting presentations at lodges, Kiwanas, Rotary, etc. It was a lot of hard work and long hours but I was made to feel a close part of my districts scouting programs. As a result my FOS goal was always exceeded as were my numbers with the help of some very grateful volunteer scouters. The only real problem with being a DE in my experience was that three SE's came and went in a period of three years all of whom left the council much worse off financially and in deeper debt until it was merged by National's directive, several years later after I had left, for financial insolvency.

Qwasze The problem with the OA like the Boy Scout program are too many "anal retentive" adults trying to dictate on a local and national level what is "proper" concerning the OA and sash wear. IMO, if a scout is proud of being an OA member let him wear his sash at other events as well. The flap argument is a straw one at best. If you follow that logic then why not wear just a BSA patch instead of a uniform, because nothing would be recognizable or identifiable to the BSA. The OA sash is the easily recognizable symbol of the OA, like it or not, not the flap, especially to other scouts and the public. It is time for the adult OA members to back off and let the boys decide when to wear the sash for themselves. Again, the OA is not a secret paternal organization so stop trying to model it after one.

qwasze I am glad your lodge is alive and active, but as far as the wearing of the sash I think you are way off base. The flap looks like just another patch on the uniform while the sash is a standout item that is CLEARLY seen and is identifiable, not to mention great PR for the lodge, especially those struggling. As a DE my SE made me the staff OA Advisor, the lodge at the time had only 4 active members, all lodge officers, no adult advisors, and all from just one district,in other words the lodge had died and had been that way for years. After six months of working with some very talented youth and adults who wanted the lodge resurrected we had them visit every troop in the council and got elections going for the first time in years. The Ordeal was amazing with over 75 candidates from ALL the districts participating, new officers were selected from each of the four districts. The local paper covered the story and the photo of over 100 youth and adults in their OA sashes said it all. That lodge survived and grew for years to come to over 200 very active members. At every district and council event you could always spot the OA members because of their sashes and people would ask them what that sash represented, no one ever asked them about the flap.