BadenP

JM You are so right, the last thing that the powers that be at National would want is for an outsider to be brought in who might demand some real accountability from those high ranking National professional scouters and who might mess up the status quo. From the list most of them are insiders who are part of the problem and will continue down the same path as their predecessors. They throw in a couple of SE's into the mix to give the appearance that the selection has not already been fixed. It really is to bad that the COR's and adult volunteers don't get to vote.

I agree that this incident falls to the SM, SPL, and PLC to determine the appropriate discipline. Usually the youth leaders will be much more severe than the adults in deciding those boys fate, plus it helps the PLC develop some leadership skills in the process.

OGE The CSE does not have to worry about jamboree weight restrictions. He shows up talks for half an hour, shakes a few hands, is taken on a golf cart for a tour of the grounds, gets into his chauffer driven towncar taken back to the hotel where he sits by the pool with his favorite cocktail, goes to a fancy restaraunt for dinner, and flies home the next morning. No need to be physically fit for that routine. Such is the life of the CSE. We will miss you Bob!

I agree with TampaTurtle, I hope there are no new surprises waiting to be launched as well. OGE you may be right about KUDU let him bring Hillcourt scouting and Bill's strong outdoor program back to the BSA, now is the time. Although I have not personally agreed with all the changes Mazzuca has made, especially the uniforms being made in Asia, he was my boss when I was a DE and I enjoyed working with the guy back then.

dfolson In all honesty it is hard to advise you with just one side of the story. I think it comes down to has the boy met all the requirements for Life according to the BSA standards set down it its publications? If he has then the BOR should grant the rank, as they are not allowed to add any requirements, nor is it their place to tell the boy when to ask for the next BOR. On the flip side, did he really fulfill his duties as quartermaster if all the equipment was just thrown into a messy room and was not properly cleaned and cared for. As a quartermaster myself as a youth I remember those canvas tents and cooking equipment that needed constant care, it was alot of work. So bottom line is did the boy fufill all his responsibilites in his POR's and did he meet all the other requirements for the rank of Life, if so then put the documentation together showing that he has met the criteria and the SM should schedule another BOR ASAP. Prior to that the BOR members should have in front of them the requirements for Life and a reminder from you as UC that they should not and can not add to those requirements. Good Luck.

emb021 The term jamboree is not an exclusively owned, or copyrighted word nor can it be "reserved" as you state by the BSA or anyone else. It is a generic term for a gathering. A council can call an event the Horseshoe Council Jamboree or the Gold Rush District Jamboree for example without any need to get permission from National. Jamboree is also used by the GSUSA and several other civic organizations for special celebrations.

john Ponz Once again you do not know what you are talking about. There are a number clothing manufacturers in the USA who could easily handle the full order of the BSA. The company we use and two others that I personally know about, and have sentthat info to National to let them reconsider. WHAT YOU DON"T SEEM TO GET IS that the BSA likes the crap from Asia because they get it dirt cheap. The BSA could care less about the quality of the uniforms because those fat cats in Irving have all their uniforms custom made by an American manufacturer. National knows it holds the monopoly and can force the membership to buy whatever quality uniform it wants. All they really care about is making the highest profit possible, period. So ponz try to get your erroneous facts straight, because you just look foolish defending National and their decision to buy our uniforms from Asian sweatshops.

Ponz BSA National is not the all knowing and always right organization you think it is Ponz and to blindly defend them and some of their policies, like deciding to purchase uniforms from sweatshops in Asia is inexcusable as well as immoral. All the Venturing crews in our council are buying higher quality and better made uniforms at a price less than what National charges from a local manufacturer. So your own points in your last post are both untrue and invalid. Yes, we do disagree and I call into question your own sense of what is right and wrong, fact or fiction, scouter or not.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

John ponz The so called high level jobs are NOT IN THE MANUFACTURING, but in the research and development of the product. My point was that you still can get competitively priced uniforms made here in the USA and has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about. Yes we still need to manufacture things here in the USA instead of being dependant on foreign goods. The reason the BSA went overseas for uniforms was for one reason and one reason only, more money/profit to line their coffers at National, NOT for better quality uniforms or to pass on the savings to the members, in fact quite the opposite.

YOU JOHN PONZ have apparently totally missed the point of this thread. There will always be a need for labor intensive jobs in this country because as soon as we stop manufacturing in this country the bottom will fall out of our economy and all those so called "High paying" jobs will disappear. The US thought our Info-Tech technology was going to be the way to get out of the recession our economy was experiencing, but guess what it didn't work, other countries are duplicating our technology and they don't need ours anymore. Now we are in a deep recession/depression worldwide with the experts unable to figure out how to get us out. The USA imports almost all of our electronics, clothing,fuel, a high percentage of our cars, food, and manufactured goods. When we stopped manufacturing in this country we lost our #1 status as the economic world leader, and the problem is getting worse. At one time Made in the USA really meant something, not anymore since we produce so little. Your "from the top down" economic outlook/philosophy is not only severely flawed, but has been proven that it does NOT work.

john ponz What an arrogant and demeaning post. How many of our grandparents who immigrated to this country worked their butts off working in factories as those were the only jobs they could get, and they performed those jobs with pride. My grandfather taught himself how to read and write English from my dad's schoolbooks and you have the gall to call them illiterate, what a pompous ass you are. Beavah if you truly believe that to be the case then you too fall under the same category as ponz and have lost all credibility with me. This country was built on the backs of immigrants who were more than willing to the jobs that most Americans refused to do.

Well john SS Scout is correct there are NO factories in Asia where the workers welfare is being protected, and these sweatshops have been documented countless times on 20/20, Nightline,60 Minutes and countless other shows. So by purchasing from these factories in all areas of Asia the BSA is guilty of being a willfull participant in this serious abuse issue. The BSA could take a lesson from the GSUSA who still have all their uniforms made in the USA and sell them at competitive prices to their members. The argument that most clothing is made in Asia these days does not take away from the fact that the conditions these people work in is absolutely deplorable and that there is nothing being done to improve conditions in those factories. With my own crew, we used to order custom polos and sweatshirts as the crews venturing uniform from National Supply, until they started the Made in China move, now we ,and all the other crews in the council buy our uniforms from a local manufacturer. The materials and workmanship are excellent and each piece costs us one dollar less than what National charges. By the way this manufacturer got written permission from the BSA years ago to use all the BSA logos on their clothing. So to all those naysayers out there we CAN still get quality uniforms made in the USA at competitive prices. By the way I have forwarded this information directly to CSE Mazzucca, who was my SE when I was a DE, and am still waiting to hear back, but I am not holding my breath.

john ponz Man what is your problem? Are you a poster boy for National BSA Supply or what, lol. The truth is this on uniform quality from Asia, they are getting uniforms at a dirt cheap price made with inferior materials and workmanship made in sweatshops and mainly made by chidren. For that reason alone the BSA is participating in immoral business practices by using these vendors. Second, there are still some textile mills here in the USA producing quality uniforms for other groups and professions at only a slightly higher cost, ($5 or less) than overseas, and could easily fill all the uniform needs of the BSA. So your argument doesn't hold water. So you can get off your high horse already, learn to research your arguments because your facts are faulty.

SP- you better look up the definition of paranoid, which I think suits you and your comments much better. Any legitmate group should have nothing to hide, especially youth groups. BDPT- The OA has no or is not allowed to have ANY secrets any longer per BSA policies which have been around since the eighties or longer. As far as LDS scouting is concerned, most of their program is the same, based on my experiences as a DE with 25% LDS units and being invited to their scouting ceremonies over the years. There are however special religious ceremonies included in their scouting program involving attainment of the various stages of "priesthood" which are usually open only to church members.

Even back in the days I was a DE our council would not allow parent groups to be a charter organization. As Horizons letter stated there is a lack of continuity and accountability as the parents and their kids move out of the program. It would not surprise me to find out there are several pending cases for missing unit assets among some of these parents groups, and the ones left holding the bag are screaming lawsuit. Since the council approves all charters they could be held accountable, but that is for the courts and the lawyers to decide.

Pack212 Any youth organization that restricts their publications can only have something to hide. If your group is truly legitimate they should always be open to the public.

OGE I agree with you, however the current BSA Made in CHINA uniform is exactly that -CRAP!!! Yet the membership has no other option. The truth of the matter there are still a few textile factories in the USA producing fine quality uniforms and clothing that could produce uniforms at a competitive price if the orders were in large enough volumes, which the BSA orders would fulfill. National is getting cheap quality materials and poor workmanship at unbelievably low prices from Asia and yet they continue to raise uniform prices. Where is all that profit going?? Into National's coffers to pay for all those ridiculously high salaries and expense accounts from Mazzucca right down to the local councils SE's.

Scoutfish Your last post was not only lacking in ANY proof of your opinions on AHG it was both hilarious and extremely moronic. Many of you seem to think I oppose the AHG which I do not, what I do not approve is that the BSA and a few Catholic churches have decided to enter into a formal partnership with this organization giving it the kind of credibility that it really does not deserve. The AHG should be allowed to offer their program to girls as long as it does not promote bigotry and intolerance of non Christians, which was happening with the AHG in my area, and why the Catholic Bishop here terminated his diocese partnership with the AHG and the very few AHG troops in his church's. The Bishop here was able to see and understand the problems with the AHG that sadly a number of posters here do not or refuse to see. Those of you who think the AHG is a great partner for the BSA and a good influence on your daughters more power to you and good luck. I guess the people in my area are a little more enlightened than some of you here posting indefensivable support for the AHG.

KC9 Simply put the AHG is purely an evangelizing and proselityzing tool of an organization with a very twisted understanding of Christianity. It uses a few scoutlike trappings to attract young girls into their web of deception, but that does not make them a "scouting organization". Instead their racist and exclusionary policies make them nothing more than a "hate" group that claims it is Christian but in reality is anything but Christian.

SR540, Rooster, SP All the questions you have asked have been answered over and over again in the prior thread and in this one, "They have eyes but they do not see". The answers were not to your liking so you go on attack trying to legitimize the AHG using your own interpretations as facts, which they are not. I still say that because some Catholic churches support the AHG does NOT give it any more credibility or change the facts that it is NOT open to any girl or open to any adult potential leader because they are not a US citizen. If you want to go on attacking me fine, I really could care less as you three in particular are really showing your own immaturity and ignorance as to what the AHG organization truly represents. Because the AHG emphasizes GOD in their program does not make it special or holy in any way since the god they represent certainly is not the GOD of the Bible, but a twisted interpretation of scripture that is plainly erroneous. God is a God of all people open to anyone who seeks him too bad the AHG fails to understand that in their own program. AHG claims to be a "Christian" organization yet it excludes certain individuals, and the so called faith they espouse certainly is NOT Christianity by any stretch of the imagination.

Rooster How about the title Those who Always Dish it out to others but can't take it themselves. As you, SR540, and SP seem to want to spread your own prejudiced and narrow minded religious point of views as the only way for scouting and salvation both. HMMM it must be so nice to be as perfect as you three make yourselves out to be. You three kinda remind me of the Pharisees in the Bible parading around with that look at me attitude and whom Jesus was constantly condemning.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

AHG Mom I am leaving your thread alone I ask you please do the same, that quote IS directly from you in the other thread. Scoutfish- a program as defined in the BSA programming materials, handbooks, etc. not your own personal erroneous interpretations much like AHGMom's. ONE MORE TIME!!! The AHG is a solely religious program that specifically excludes certain people from the membership, based on their own website etc,. Its primary mission is to promote their own peculiar brand of Christianity, it is not in any way shape or form an outdoor oriented program teaching outdoor skills or developing leadership or good citizenship. In spite of diguising itself in a few scoutlike trappings, its primary focus is indoctrination of young girls into a type of Christianity that looks down on non Christians as inferior. It is a biased entity that the BSA should avoid any affiliation with them.

SR540 1 That quote was directly from AHGMom in the other thread, not my opinion but hers' okay. 2 My comment to SP goes double for you. 3 All the AHG's religious agenda you refer to is why IMO AHG does not belong in a relationship with the BSA, it is not in any way a scout like or a scouting program, rather it is nothing more than a slanted religious propaganda machine. Have a nice day!

SP Your beligerance is better suited to the other AHG thread, this discussion is specifically for more open minded people,unlike youself, who may not think AHG is not the best match for the BSA. Eagle92 What you say is indeed true but I am referring specifically to the BSA scouting program in the USA.

"We will now discuss the merits of the AHG as a scouting program." AHGnBSAMom Trailing off from the previous thread to allow them to concentrate on their own seperate discussion, I found this quote from AHG Mom to be IMO simply absurd. AHG is NOT a scouting program by any stretch of the imagination, its main purpose, from their own website and literature, is to build a CHRISTIAN girls relationship with God and their church. They throw in a couple elements from the BSA program and some of their leaders think that makes them a "scouting organization". A few Catholic scout unit leaders and forum posters feel that the AHG is a good fit for their cub packs as a partner group for the girls, and that is fine. Should the AHG be allowed to exsist and offer their program, of course they should. My only objection to the AHG is their pretense of being a "scouting" organization and manuevering themselves into a so called relationship with the BSA. The reality is that the AHG is a very small group, and will continue to remain so IMO due mainly to their primarily religious focus and their exclusivity. National BSA may look at them as a neutral way to start the integration process of younger girls into scouting without having to change the BSA program as it now stands. In any case I still feel that the AHG passing itself off as a "scouting" organization is simply wrong and untrue. AHG would be better served IMO by building their own independent organizational structure instead of riding on the coat tails of the BSA.