MattR

I knew you'd have this available. Thanks! Anyway, $3.3B / 750k scouts is $4400/scout. What other youth organization has anything close to that? What was the plan for all that money? How was it helping achieve the aims of scouting? I'm sure its spent on something, but my impression is the plan, somewhere along the line, morphed from help units into grow the endowment.

I didn't say no money, I said it shouldn't be the focus. Every decision seems to be based on increasing membership rather than improving, say, the aims. Why have lions and tigers if kids get burned out before they get to the best part of the program? Seems clear to me it's about membership/money. I'd like to know what BSA's total value is compared to its yearly budget (including all councils). What other non profits measure assets in billions and spend so little per target member?

Or maybe the criteria for being an asm needs changing. Call an 18 yo that's still in HS a JASM and the problem is solved.

Maybe we should have called this thread "ch 11 paradoxes." There are lots of hard problems. This is just one of them. I'm not sure the bsa is equipped for that. Maybe that's the biggest problem - create a servant leader driven professional structure. Make it so the volunteers can be the focus rather than money. I know, wishful thinking.

We're making this up as we go, and your job is to find the corner cases so we don't end up with 18 yo asm's not able to hang out with their friends. so .... The TCC posted something about what they think each council is worth so that goes in the other thread. Councils post what they have to pay (yeah, right) because that is certainly part of the bankruptcy so that goes in the other thread. Now, if you want to discuss what's fair, moral, etc, it belongs here.

Sorry to butt in, I'm 7 pages behind but, please read this before you reply to anything. we're splitting this thread in 2. This thread will remain as a discussion about the legal aspects of ch 11. Everything else will go to a new thread: it's better explained there. I doubt if the moderators have the energy to sift through 50 pages and split this but we might try and split out the last day or so.

We're going to split the ch11.x thread in 2. The original will be kept as it was intended, for the legal aspects of the case and everything else will go here. In a nutshell, if the judge is dealing with the details of it or the lawyers are arguing over it, it goes in the old thread. Everything else goes here. That means if it's about what's morally correct vs legally correct, it goes here. If it's about the future of the chartered orgs, it goes here. If it's about what the BSA knew when, it goes here. If it's about healing, it goes here. If it's about what YP should look like, it goes here. Clear as mud, I know. We're trying. For those of you that are only on this forum to look at one thread, it's time to learn a new trick. Any threads related to the bankruptcy will have the tag "ch11". You can limit what threads you see by using a custom Activity Stream. As described below you have to set either what tags you want or to just display what you're following (in which case you also need to follow the these threads) If you are on a laptop: Go to Feed -> My Activity Streams -> Create New Stream. You can either explicitly just display threads with the ch11 tag or you can follow both of the threads and just display threads you follow. To follow a thread look in the upper right of the page and click on follow. If you're on a cell phone: click on Show Filters and set either the Show Me field to only look at the ch11 tag or the Following field to show only the threads you're following. To follow a thread go to the bottom of the page and click on follow. Once you have that set up all you need to do is use the custom activity stream. If you want, you can use that as your default feed where the Unread Content button is (I guess it looks like a newspaper)

You can't post other topics now? Strange, I can. Anyway, I found something really cool on the UK Scout forum. Someone started a single thread that's been going for years and all it is is a place to talk about good news. Now, I've tried that here before and it lasted about a week at most. Maybe you'll have better luck. Or maybe it's just that Americans like to whinge about things. Think about it, what are the British famous for with regard to personality? Dour, stiff upper lip, subdued, all that. And yet, they have this fantastic thread that's been going for years about silly little wonderful news and all we do is complain about national, or council, or woodbadge, or family scouting, or the G2SS, or eagle mills, or obnoxious parents, or uniforms, or membership, or .... wait a minute, what were we talking about?

Well, it seemed you both were coming to a consensus. Maybe just my view but bankruptcy court is not necessarily moral, at best they just spread the pain around?

@Eagle1970, I think there's a mechanism that might keep you from missing out. Suppose there are 5 threads related to what you're really interested in (all threads related to ch11). Since there are a dozen or so people that are going to have the same interest we can tag those threads and show all of you how to only look at those threads. So, when you click on unread content it will only show, from the list of 5 threads, which contain new material. You wouldn't miss anything and could read it in the order you'd like. Would that help? My fear is, because of the volume of posts, people are missing things anyway.

Let's identify the sub threads. My limited view: 1) ch 11, so money and court proceedings. 2) whatever Mutsy and Cynical are grappling with. Legal vs moral? 3) healing 4) charter orgs More, different? David makes a point but the usual response is identify the thread and pull it out.

What I've learned is that when it comes to trauma like this, where someone that society says you should be loyal to and yet they traumatize you anyway, it's next to impossible for the victim to walk away. Whether it's parents abusing kids, spousal abuse, CSA, or even war, this seems to be the crux of the pain. My understanding is that parts of our brains, the older parts, are wired towards loyalty towards community. So that part of the brain is keeping the victim from leaving the situation. The newer parts of the brain, including the parts that control reason and speech, you might think would just say "hey, this is a bad situation, leave!" but the two parts don't really talk to each other very well. Consequently there's a huge tension, words and reasoning don't work, and the result is PTSD and all the things we've been told about by the victims on this forum. My impression is that a compassionate community is probably the biggest type of help for the victims. The trauma makes a lot of changes in the brain and, again, just my impression, but it takes a lot of effort to rewire the brain.

@IWasAbusedinScouting, welcome to the forum. I hope your participation helps everyone, you as well.

Okay everyone, while I appreciate the added pages, so we can get to 100 and find some new info about the court case, everyone keeps repeating the same thing. Gilwell is waiting, cynical doesn't believe it. So, give it a break. Its Friday and if you're living in an area without smoke, flooding or covid, go enjoy your weekend. For the other 95% of you, try meditation.

Only 81 more pages till we find out something new about the bankruptcy. I'll have to talk to the other judges as to whether talking about the accuracy of our posters and how incredibly famous our forum now is (as opposed to the case) is cheating. Not a chance. Aren't you the one who said they tended towards verbose? Anyway, since we've been picked up by the AP and we still have lots of pages to go where is the discussion about victim's needs other than money? I recently heard a discussion about trauma, ptsd, shame and the neuro biology behind it. I understand a little better what people have been through and their comments here make sense. Maybe we can get a page out of it.

Can we save the family scouting thread for something other than ch 11? Granted, we have to get to 100 pages before we find out what's next in this story, but still, arguing about family scouting just sounds like cheating

It's optional in the scout program so I assume it's also optional in the cub program. Just because they sell it you don't have to buy it.

I don't think you need the hat so it might be easier to just drop it all together. I like the idea of just one neckerchief. Why the books aren't combined into one or just made into a pdf is a mystery. Of course, we know the answer. They make money on sales.

It sounds to me like you have 2 questions - one about the perpetrator and one about the victims. Before having read this thread I wouldn't have thought about how dealing with the first might impact the second. So I'd start with the victims to find out what might help them. As for the SoL, that only has to do with what can be done under the law. If there is credible evidence, why not send it to a local news source? I understand that the victims might be hesitant, but if not, maybe CSA needs it's own #metoo movement? How much of the pain comes from not being able to confront it? My guess is the shame and helplessness that victims of regular sexual abuse have would also apply to CSA? Isn't the shame and helplessness the source of power the men had over all the children they abused? Why not take that away from them? I apologize if I'm way off base.

I vaguely remember something about that scout camp. Never stayed there. We just brought our gear, bikes and food, stayed at the campground on the edge of town, and did a lot of mtn biking. It was a cheap, simple and fun trip.

Welcome to the forum, @Dave951.

We need a better title than "part 5 - more of the same". However, when someone says there has been a major change then, yes, roughly 100 pages is a good time to make a new thread.

Okay. Enough. If you aren't talking about court proceedings then drop it. It would be a shame to lock this thread now.

Umm, this is part 4. Good luck.

@docSquatch, welcome to the forum. It's up to you about joining a unit. But it's great that you want to be a counselor for more than a troop.