MattR

54 minutes ago, RandomScouter said:

I'm pages behind on the ch.11 thread, and I haven't had my coffee yet, so please forgive me if I sound dense.  It sounds like the mods are trying to make a place for the more emotionally-charged topics of discussion and speculations about what may happen (e.g. CO relations) here while leaving ch.11 for the "cold hard facts" of the bankruptcy case.

So, if it's about:

-LC assets (stated numbers, dollar amounts, property values)

-LC contributions (i.e. announcements about they are contributing and how they plan to raise the funds - not our estimations of what they should or might contribute)

it goes here(?) or can they go in ch.11?

 

We're making this up as we go, and your job is to find the corner cases so we don't end up with 18 yo asm's not able to hang out with their friends.

so .... The TCC posted something about what they think each council is worth so that goes in the other thread. Councils post what they have to pay (yeah, right) because that is certainly part of the bankruptcy so that goes in the other thread. Now, if you want to discuss what's fair, moral, etc, it belongs here.

4 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

I think the best thing would be to rename the current Scouter Forum .... The Bankruptcy Forum.  (Honestly it's sort of that now) Then form a NEW forum called Scouter Forum Part 2 . 

Then those that want to diver deep into the  minutia, blue sky thoughts, what if's, and pure speculation of the bankruptcy and what may, may not, may never happen will have a home.  Put on the tinfoil hats and go to town.

Those that want to discuss and review actual Scouting program topics will have a home.

Just a thought.

 

 

You can't post other topics now? Strange, I can. Anyway, I found something really cool on the UK Scout forum. Someone started a single thread that's been going for years and all it is is a place to talk about good news. Now, I've tried that here before and it lasted about a week at most. Maybe you'll have better luck. Or maybe it's just that Americans like to whinge about things. Think about it, what are the British famous for with regard to personality? Dour, stiff upper lip, subdued, all that. And yet, they have this fantastic thread that's been going for years about silly little wonderful news and all we do is complain about national, or council, or woodbadge, or family scouting, or the G2SS, or eagle mills, or obnoxious parents, or uniforms, or membership, or .... wait a minute, what were we talking about?

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Ok, sorry. I'll drop it.

Well, it seemed you both were coming to a consensus. Maybe just my view but bankruptcy court is not necessarily moral, at best they just spread the pain around? 

@Eagle1970, I think there's a mechanism that might keep you from missing out. Suppose there are 5 threads related to what you're really interested in (all threads related to ch11). Since there are a dozen or so people that are going to have the same interest we can tag those threads and show all of you how to only look at those threads. So, when you click on unread content it will only show, from the list of 5 threads, which contain new material. You wouldn't miss anything and could read it in the order you'd like.

Would that help?

My fear is, because of the volume of posts, people are missing things anyway.

Let's identify the sub threads. My limited view:

1) ch 11, so money and court proceedings.

2) whatever Mutsy and Cynical are grappling with. Legal vs moral?

3) healing

4) charter orgs

More, different?

David makes a point but the usual response is identify the thread and pull it out.

56 minutes ago, skeptic said:

He lived with his alcoholic father who often beat him badly, yet he stood up for his father if anyone said anything.  It was hard for me to understand that defense mechanism, especially when it came to my attention that very often he stayed with other scouts when his father was on a binge.

What I've learned is that when it comes to trauma like this, where someone that society says you should be loyal to and yet they traumatize you anyway, it's next to impossible for the victim to walk away. Whether it's parents abusing kids, spousal abuse, CSA, or even war, this seems to be the crux of the pain. My understanding is that parts of our brains, the older parts, are wired towards loyalty towards community. So that part of the brain is keeping the victim from leaving the situation. The newer parts of the brain, including the parts that control reason and speech, you might think would just say "hey, this is a bad situation, leave!" but the two parts don't really talk to each other very well. Consequently there's a huge tension, words and reasoning don't work, and the result is PTSD and all the things we've been told about by the victims on this forum. My impression is that a compassionate community is probably the biggest type of help for the victims. The trauma makes a lot of changes in the brain and, again, just my impression, but it takes a lot of effort to rewire the brain.

@IWasAbusedinScouting, welcome to the forum. 

I hope your participation helps everyone, you as well.

Okay everyone, while I appreciate the added pages,  so we can get to 100 and find some new info about the court case, everyone keeps repeating the same thing. Gilwell is waiting, cynical doesn't  believe it.

So, give it a break.

Its Friday and if you're living in an area without smoke, flooding or covid, go enjoy your weekend. For the other 95% of you, try meditation.

Only 81 more pages till we find out something new about the bankruptcy. 

I'll have to talk to the other judges as to whether talking about the accuracy of our posters and how incredibly famous our forum now is (as opposed to the case) is cheating.

3 hours ago, ThenNow said:

For you active Scouters, I hope this doesn’t put a damper on the candid discussion here. 

Not a chance. Aren't you the one who said they tended towards verbose?

Anyway, since we've been picked up by the AP and we still have lots of pages to go where is the discussion about victim's needs other than money? I recently heard a discussion about trauma, ptsd, shame and the neuro biology behind it. I understand a little better what people have been through and their comments here make sense. Maybe we can get a page out of it.

Can we save the family scouting thread for something other than ch 11?

Granted, we have to get to 100 pages before we find out what's next in this story, but still, arguing about family scouting just sounds like cheating

6 hours ago, Armymutt said:

The hat is produced by BSA as a uniform part.  So dropping it is unlikely.  If BSA produced one Cub Scout hat for all ranks, like they have one Scouts BSA hat for all ranks, it wouldn't be a big deal.  Look at all the imagery - a properly attired Cub Scout wears a hat.

It's optional in the scout program so I assume it's also optional in the cub program. Just because they sell it you don't have to buy it.

I don't think you need the hat so it might be easier to just drop it all together. 

I like the idea of just one neckerchief.

Why the books aren't combined into one or just made into a pdf is a mystery. Of course, we know the answer. They make money on sales. 

14 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Very, very few were already reported or listed, for that very reason.

I got a Saturday night hypothetical for youz guys. You’re a member of the LC Cone of Silence Brigade. You’re tasked with going through your share of a couple hundred Proofs of Claim. In your reading, you discover terrible things, credibly alleged, about a guy you go to church with or see at the bar or is a part of your hunting club. He abused more than one boy, you find. The SoL had run on all the claims. What do you do? How do you feel? How do you find yourself around him? Hm?

I saw my abuser in my hometown once when I was a grown a** man. I walked into a coffee shop, got in line, and there he was a few people in front of me. I froze between pissing myself and going to my truck to get the bat I kept behind the seat. I talked myself into just waiting for him to leave and resisted the temptation to do what I wanted to do. 

It sounds to me like you have 2 questions - one about the perpetrator and one about the victims. Before having read this thread I wouldn't have thought about how dealing with the first might impact the second. So I'd start with the victims to find out what might help them.

As for the SoL, that only has to do with what can be done under the law. If there is credible evidence, why not send it to a local news source? I understand that the victims might be hesitant, but if not, maybe CSA needs it's own #metoo movement? 

How much of the pain comes from not being able to confront it? My guess is the shame and helplessness that victims of regular sexual abuse have would also apply to CSA? Isn't the shame and helplessness the source of power the men had over all the children they abused? Why not take that away from them? 

I apologize if I'm way off base.

I vaguely remember something about that scout camp. Never stayed there. We just brought our gear, bikes and food, stayed at the campground on the edge of town, and did a lot of mtn biking. It was a cheap, simple and fun trip.

Welcome to the forum, @Dave951.

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

In a totally related topic, isn't it time to start a new thread?

We need a better title than "part 5 - more of the same". However, when someone says there has been a major change then, yes, roughly 100 pages is a good time to make a new thread.

5 minutes ago, docSquatch said:

How transparent are they being with the finances? 

Sorry, I'm trying to catch up, but 93 pages of comments is a lot. 

Umm, this is part 4.

Good luck.

@docSquatch, welcome to the forum.

It's up to you about joining a unit. But it's great that you want to be a counselor for more than a troop.

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm saying it's setting a bad example.  We should not be teaching that it's okay to treat others badly; aka being a jerk.  ... This specific situation is called hazing and against the rules

You're right, we shouldn't treat others badly. But speaking of different opinions, I assume teasing is okay? At least if it's gentle? If not let me know and I'll remove all of my other posts in this thread. Oops, there I go again.

In other words, looking for smoke shifters can be used as an opportunity to show scouts how to stop things before they go too far, how to be gentle and how to pay attention to how others respond to your actions.

But you're right that, if not done right, it can get out of hand and people get hurt. But that's all the fun parts of scouting. It's a good thing we have the scout law to explain this to the scouts.

There, I can end one post in this thread seriously. Doh!

On 8/5/2021 at 10:03 PM, fred8033 said:

Better give up everything from every institution you ever valued and every person you ever respected.   Not much from the past withstands the scrutiny of the present.  Ya know doctors used leeches and blood letting and celebrated healing when they say laudable pus (aka an infection). 

Choose almost any profession ... almost any institution ... and almost any individual and you can justify outrage.  The past isn't perfect.  It's just the past and how we got to where we are.  

 

I don't believe the KKK was ever considered a noble organization. 

It's less that "almost any institution" from the past can't "withstand the scrutiny of the present" so much as no institution can withstand scrutiny based on its own grandiose view of itself. 

It's where humility should come in.

One way to speed up the validation would be to hold the lawyers that signed the claims accountable. My understanding is that they were supposed to vet the claims they signed. So, just take the lost money out of their earnings where they didn't do their job.  They make 40% if they did their job but they lose 100% if they were sloppy. Call it a cost of doing business.

I'm sure I could come up with more rules to reduce the bad voting as well.