MattR

Is this a browser or OS issue? 

Here's a wedding picture of my garbage cans. This is a  .jpg. So, what are the file extensions of the images you want to upload? BTW, it may be case sensitive,  so .jpg is okay but .JPG is not.

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

12 times 6o = 720 ?   12 times 100 = 1200 ?   

But then, who's counting....

600 hundred = 600x100 = 60,000 months. 

But you're right in one way. If I have to explain the punch line then it's a lousy joke.

Are we sure about this? 600 hundred months is 5000 years.

25 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Sorry it’s all confusing 

No surprise there. I suspect you took my description a little to literally. If the words tcc, stang, kossnoff, rsa, omni, the names of the insurance companies, the judge's name, any dates the case must abide by or plans 1 through 5, put it here. I'm sure I'm missing a lot but will try and keep a list. 

Honestly, I suspect a lot of people are lurking here because this thread is the best analysis of this case. I suspect there are a few CEs following this as it's the best source of information around. Those not reading this are posting comments like "there's been a deal made and so ...." So, for the most part, this thread is related to the facts and expert opinions of this case. There will always be grey areas but I hope this helps.

@CynicalScouter, I keep moving your posts. Change threads

Posts have been moved

37 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Perhaps I'm dense or over-reading this but I've found this recent split confusing.  The title says "bankruptcy" but how that connects to YP, moral vs legal, and the future of scouting seem at times connected and at others disconnected.  Consider this one vote for starting a new thread after the BSA files a new plan to put things on a less confusing track. 

If the judge is talking about it, put it in the ch11.5 thread. If the judge is not talking about it but you think it's related to ch 11, put it here.

Honestly, the simplest solution is if the judge is talking about it then put it in the ch11.5 thread, if not start a different thread. Unfortunately, we've tried that for about a year and everything keeps going back to the same thread. This is a forum, not just a single thread. To paraphrase an old TV show, we have the technology The problem with jamming a whole lot of threads into one is that there are people that would rather not read every single post trying to find the few subjects they are interested in. There was a post where someone was seriously asking for help deal with their trauma but it got lost in a long argument about legal vs moral. I'm not sure how moral that was.

39 minutes ago, MattR said:

We can move them.

I just did move them. Kind surgery with a chain saw. Let me know if I messed up.

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

There is something there. Individuality? fairness maybe, I don't know, but we had several special needs scouts, who struggled outside of scouts, excel in the troop.

Barry

I think there's just more opportunity for a scout to find something that resonates them. On the other side of the coin, that takes more adult volunteers.

1 hour ago, UKScouterInCA said:

That is a tough one to crack. I think the answer lies somewhere in the high expectations for youth to actually do adventurous, grown up stuff without parental/adult supervision and leadership. I'm not a big sports person but my impression is that there isn't anywhere near so much of that. I'm speaking as a latch-key generation kid, we were pretty free range and if we wanted to do anything we had to organize it ourselves. I vividly remember my youth scout camps where we would always do a night hike - we'd leave camp at around 11pm and hike until dawn, the adults would arrange meeting spots every 3 hours or so during the night but between those times we were on our own, navigating in the dark. For my Chief Scouts Challenge expedition (one of the higher awards in Scouting, as we didn't have Eagle Scout) I took off to the Isle of Wight on a biking trip with a few friends. I did my first big backpack trip solo when I was 15 or so and we never really did any backpacking in our Troop.

I'm just back from Philmont and although yes, we do have 2 deep adult "leadership" in the crew, us adults tried really hard to do what we are supposed to do - sit back and let the youth do it all. Where else would a 14 year old kid spend 2 weeks in the wilderness, largely self supported, with a team of youth, pretty much working it all out themselves? Yes, it is kind of backpacking Disneyland and all, but they are still out in the wilderness, navigating, traveling a good distance each day at altitude, working out how to resolve their group conflicts, dealing with being hot, cold, tired, hungry, emotional, irritable.

Why do I think this is relevant for youth development and public health in a way that sports are not? I think because Sports teach teamwork, hard work, discipline and core skills - all good things. But Scouts teaches that things that are scary or intimidating, that you don't think you can do,  you can. This could be a backpack trip, or whitewater rafting, or rock climbing, but equally well could be a board of review, or interviewing a judge to discuss your constitutional responsibilities. You do them, to paraphrase a certain president, "not because they are easy, but because they are hard.” By doing the hard things, everything else afterwards in life seems more manageable.

I agree. Unfortunately, you're preaching to the choir.

But back to the OP, how many kids in a poverty and crime infested neighborhood can go to Philmont? That's a barrier. Another is setting up units in those areas. As I said above, it requires a lot of volunteers to make this program work. But when those parents are struggling to find time just to make ends meet ... there's another barrier. The BSA has certainly tried to make their program available in poor areas with not much to show for it. I'm not sure it's the right organization to do that but that's a different thread.

We can move them.

Just a friendly reminder, but we split the ch 11 thread such that topics including tcc and bankruptcy plans would stay in the old one and all the other topics that came up about yp, moral vs legal, the future of scouting, etc, would go here.

On 9/7/2021 at 12:14 PM, UKScouterInCA said:

My father was a Scout in late 1940's/early 1050's Bristol, in the UK. You may not know much about Bristol, but it is, and was, a major port. It also was the location for the Bristol Aircraft factory. As a result, the center of the city was pretty much leveled by German bombing. The city was essentially an urban mess, with a lot of poverty and crime.

My father credited Scouting with essentially putting him on the proverbial "straight and narrow" by creating opportunities to get out of the urban decay and into the outdoors, while learning a variety of life skills. His was an inner city Troop that catered to whichever boys would participate. There probably was not a lot of ethnic diversity but it was a long way from the stereotype of the more affluent suburban middle class that seems to be portrayed today. These were boys that had never even seen the countryside.

This is the part that sticks with me. Scouting helps kids that need it. Why is that? And is scouting much different from other activities? Or is it just that scouting just attracts different kinds of kids than, say, sports? In my case I did both scouts and sports and I seemed to have kept different aspects of each (with some overlap).

Second, what are the barriers to these types of activities for families in "an urban mess, with a lot of poverty and crime"? Again, is scouting unique? The BSA has been trying to crack that nut for a long time and have failed. I have my suspicions why but lets just say the BSA might benefit from the paper @Armymutt is writing.

I'm voting with there needs to be a better relationship with the CO. That's where all the grief is coming from. It doesn't even matter whether this story is believable, the COR is a pain and the only way to fix that is creating a better relationship with the CO. Also, expecting a better relationship with a new CO, where there's no effort to create a good relationship, is just kicking the can down the road. It may be a lot easier to repair the current relationship than find a new CO. As others have said, go talk to the CO.

20 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

A large board is in the 20 range most of the time.  If BSA was successful, it wouldn't be an issue.  We have 70 board members with no info.  UK Scouting has 21 board members and I can read their discussion about growth and actions they are taking.  The BSA board structure is a joke and provides no real oversight, no transparency.  We are bankrupt and shedding scouts.  UK is worried about 0.3% growth in 2020.  They are posting their discussion points on the web.

I'm sorry, but there is no defense of our National Executive Board or whatever they are called.  They are hiding and have been hiding for as far back as I can see.  We are bankrupt and have been in decline.  We are taking on massive debt from this bankruptcy and NO ONE is really talking to us other than a few councils and most of them provide minimal info.  We find snippets of info and pass them on Scouter.com, Facebook and Reddit.    

Where is Mosby?  If I were leading an organization through bankruptcy, I would be doing weekly video updates.  I would be thanking my volunteers.  I would be encouraging them to stay the course and know that we will respond.  I would spotlight a great council, Troop, Pack.  Something.  I would invite a key National staff member on to discuss a critical topic.  Here is Richard B ... head of safety, lets talk safety in scouting.   Perhaps I just can't find his frequent updates.  I know it took him months to write anything to us when first selected.  Right now he is MIA! 

Where is the board asking him why he isn't reaching out to the volunteer corp?  No, instead they are saying he is our long term Chief Scout.  OK.  UK has Bear Grylls and we have Mosby.

Twitter influence has been mentioned several times.  Bear Grylls has 1.5M followers and tweets about scouts frequently (Aug 24 quick example).  Roger Mosby has 12 followers and last tweet was Dec 2, 2013 about a car accident.  Perhaps not apples to apples.  UK Chief Commissioner, Tim Kidd - 8,406 followers tweeted about scouting yesterday.  UK Chief Executive Matt Hyde - 9.7K followers, tweeted about scouts 5 hours ago.  Again, Mosby, 12 followers, ZERO tweets about scouts.  Kosnoff has more twitter followers and tweets about scouting than our CEO who is hauling in massive $$.

I want my Scout Executive to be able to hike Mount Baldy with a full pack while live streaming, and then hike down to camp, and have a call with a leadership team about membership grown, program changes and CO relationships.   I have a hard time seeing our key 3 doing this right now.

Our leadership is lost and has no idea how to operate in the 21st century. Whatever they (the board) are doing is not working and hasn't been working well for many years.  It is time for a change.

@Eagle1993 for CSE!

It will be a lot like this past year - in flux, fewer volunteers, trying to figure out how to recruit. 

2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I just want to have the committee meeting at the same time with the appropriate leaders from each Troop to save a night in the week.  More and more I think we are going to have siblings in each group with adult leadership in both.

You can do that. Nothing wrong with saving time.

I have 2 simple goals that could be made smart.

1) Ask a random sample of parents whether they want their children in scouts. Answer on a scale of 1 to 5. 1 is absolutely and 5 is not on your life. Measure the percentage of 1s and set a goal for that. The point is raise awareness of scouting. i.e., get some marketing that works.

2) For those that said absolutely, make them successful volunteers. measure how many are volunteering 3 years later in a gold status unit. i.e., make sure they understand the program, are well trained and helping out. 

So, I'm not interested in membership numbers. Rather, more visibility and quality units.

That all said, the issue i originally brought up was not CSE pay but how much money councils burn through and how much of that is making it to the scouts. I suppose one could set similar goals for councils.  How many parents want their kids in the local units and how successful are new parent volunteers?

First of all welcome to the forum.

If every patrol is always required to achieve honor patrol then it's fine. However, if this is an extra requirement for a patrol that has a PL needing something signed off then it's an added requirement.  Added requirements are not acceptable.

I wonder how the patrols respond to this. Will they vote against a scout because they'd rather not do honor patrol?

There are better ways to motivate patrols. And that is the key, motivate the entire patrol rather than just the PL.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

Because the Program Committee members reviewed considerable evidence that children are selecting the extracurricular activities in kindergarten that they will do for the next several years and that this phenomenon is part of the reason that Cub Scouts membership was declining.

And the reason they want to raise Cub Scout membership even though cubs get burned out before scouts is bringing in more money. As I said, membership is more important than quality.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

The BSA membership will rise throughout the year so 1 M is a better number.

We're 3/4 of the way through that year and the troops in my district have been told they need to sponsor a pack because so many packs have completely collapsed. On the other hand, I think it gives us the opportunity to find kids that aren't burned out on cub scouts. We just need to figure out how to recruit from the middle schools.

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

BUT a lot of that is locked up in real estate/capital fund.

I agree. Still, they have a lot of assets. And since they have so much they've gotten in the habit of spending a lot of their efforts making that pile bigger. So the focus is on money. It is not on the aims or quality of program. If there's ever a choice between increasing membership, units, anything that brings in more money, or increasing the quality of units they always lean on more money. What is more important to a DE, increasing membership and units, or improving quality of existing units? Has a DE ever said let's take 3 weak units and combine them and support it so it's a quality unit and it just brings in more scouts. Eventually, when it's big enough we can split it in two and we'll already have trained volunteers. Or, is it that anyone with 5 kids and no experience that wants to start a unit is encouraged?

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

We don't know annual budgets for all LCs easy (have to pull 200+ IRS 990 Forms), but we can tell all assets of the LCs.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/213bd53f-b44f-45c9-97fc-246bcb7ca06b_4108.pdf

 

 

I knew you'd have this available. Thanks!

Anyway, $3.3B / 750k scouts is $4400/scout. What other youth organization has anything close to that? What was the plan for all that money? How was it helping achieve the aims of scouting?

I'm sure its spent on something, but my impression is the plan, somewhere along the line, morphed from help units into grow the endowment.

44 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Can't have program without money. Money makes the world go 'round.

I didn't say no money, I said it shouldn't be the focus. Every decision seems to be based on increasing membership rather than improving, say, the aims. Why have lions and tigers if kids get burned out before they get to the best part of the program? Seems clear to me it's about membership/money.

I'd like to know what BSA's total value is compared to its yearly budget (including all councils). What other non profits measure assets in billions and spend so little per target member?

Or maybe the criteria for being an asm needs changing. Call an 18 yo that's still in HS a JASM and the problem is solved.

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

As I said before: there are two generations of victims here. The scouts who were directly abused in the past and the present day scouts who are, indirectly, suffering in some ways through a loss of programming. Obviously this generation's scouts are NOT suffering the pain and anguish of those sexually abused, and I want to be clear i am NOT drawing an equivalence

Maybe we should have called this thread "ch 11 paradoxes."

There are lots of hard problems. This is just one of them. I'm not sure the bsa is equipped for that. Maybe that's the biggest problem - create a servant leader driven professional structure. Make it so the volunteers can be the focus rather than money.  I know, wishful thinking.