MattR

On 7/6/2021 at 12:31 PM, fred8033 said:

I questioned focusing on leadership because troops don't teach it well.  I question focusing on leadership because scout's don't show up to take leadership courses

Maybe, rather than "teaching" leadership there should be focus on giving scouts "opportunities to learn" leadership or even just "an appreciation" of leadership. Encouraging an internal motivation rather than forcing an external motivation is the difference between fun and school. My son had a soccer coach whose goal was for the kids to learn a "love for the game". He figured if the kids had that then they'd figure out the skills on their own.

All of the check boxes and "leadership skills" are external motivation. While some of that is needed to prime the pump, the real goal is beyond that. Making requirements more and more detailed is going the wrong way. 

How to describe and sell this in a phrase, to both new parents and adult leadership, is the basis of making the adult method work. There's an aspect of play that's also important. Learning how to get along and take care of each other while playing in the outdoors sounds more inviting to me.

Could someone summarize the "fish smell"? Something to do with the COs, Coalition and TCC. I don't have the time to read the past few days of posts. Thanks.

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

You just don't get it,  carry on my patchy friends and beware of the Patch Police!

Sometimes, when trying to explain something with an example, people forget what you were originally talking about.

Anyway, good luck.

Okay, time for this thread to take a break.

That's a really good observation, @Wëlënakwsu. Why have the most important position held by the least paid? Of course, getting marketing people that know marketing would also help, along with every other position. Maybe, starting with an SE that understands how to run a non profit would be a good place to start.

It would be interesting to see, by council, the amount of money they're putting into the sexual abuse fund compared to their annual salary budget. 

Pinging @SCOUTER-Terry, would you like to share your thoughts? (See post above)

16 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I wonder if it is rural, or just the number of Scouts in the council. 

It has less to do with scouts/families and more to do with the number of donors with deep pockets. Years ago my troop went to a neighboring council's summer camp and our service project was to pick up shotgun wads on the nature trail. No way the scouts or scouters would be allowed to shoot there. It was a fundraising activity for the council that included booze carts. They brought in a couple million dollars so they thought it was a good deal. They got money and a bunch of scouts cleaned up the mess. All they had to do was pay for alcohol. Once I figured out the whole story I told my troop we were done. 

I saw something similar in the Northwest. They wanted a new pavilion so they threw a party. They asked for donations. Donors asked how much and wrote checks on the spot. These were people high up in fortune 100 companies. Granted, they weren't shooting skeet on a nature trail, but when the money is that easy, who cares about overhead? Well, the donors are drying up and the model really hasn't changed. So here we are.

23 minutes ago, RobertCalifornia said:

Now that I think about it, it sure would be nice if there was a platform where the claimants could speak to and amongst themselves

Create a Facebook group or just do a search on simple forum websites. It's fairly easy to set one up.

5 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

I believe there was greater United Way support then though.

I think there has always been a lot more donations. So much that nobody worried about money. Councils with big cities are still like that. Want a pool? Throw a party and ask for money. It's not hard to collect a few hundred grand. I've seen it. But, for the rural councils, tough luck. My council says it costs $600/scout/year but fos only covers a third of that. So they're bringing in $400/scout/year in donations. I have no idea how much of that actually goes to the youth, or really anything about it.

Many non profits will advertise their overhead percentage, so how much of each dollar donated goes into costs other than the intended charity. I'd really like to see that for my council. I never have. Maybe that's the real question here.

I think a block format would be great, if I were doing summer camp activities rather than merit badges. A 3 hour hike is a hike. A 1 hr hike is a rush. 3 hours of fishing would be fun. An hour is barely enough time for me to get anything tied. 3 hours at the pool is what summer is about. Merit badges? Not if that's the focus of camp.

This thread wasn't in the correct sub forum. I moved it.

Number of staff is not very helpful. Different councils have different needs. Maybe a better measure is how much each position is contributing. I can assure you that the person in our council with the marketing title doesn't cover their expenses. Same for the one in charge of bringing in donations. There are a couple that are in charge of "program" and that's not a lot more than finding volunteers that will create programs. So, all these positions, if they brought in the bacon, might be worth the costs. But they don't. The DEs, on the other hand, are swamped. They are also the lowest paid staff. Thus, there's a huge incentive to get far away from that title, where there's a better salary and less pressure. 

That might be the place to look for reform.

Welcome to the forum, @JSL3300

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything. 

Since money can't cure everything, why does the BSA need so much of it? That may sound really insulting or negative, but it's worth thinking about. When I saw how much money my council has sitting around, and they can't hire a full time camp director, it really annoyed me. Right now they have openings for every position at summer camp. It's the same old issue, they wait until the last moment and they hire anyone with a pulse. And summer camp depends entirely on good staff.

Furthermore, it seems to me the most important job of the SE is to get donations to put in the endowment. That's all about money. So someone in the BSA seems to think money can solve everything.

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted)

Destroyed sounds like a really big assumption to me. Honestly, the BSA is doing a fine job of destroying itself without the sexual abuse. If anything, there might be some insurance companies in some hot water but the BSA is doing okay.

Skeptic, I understand your frustration. This is one more problem the BSA has to deal with. But it's not the only problem. Assuming the BSA does improve YP, which I'm a little bit optimistic about, it won't even be as bad a problem as the others.

I went to my troop meeting yesterday and was disappointed how it was being run. All the older scouts and a bunch of parents were working on a HA trip and the younger scouts were, essentially, being led like cub scouts by some parents. So I went to the SM and asked when the next campout was. I made his day. He asked if I could help run something for the younger scouts like I did back when I was SM. I got the names of a few older scouts that would not be on the HA trip. The point is, my troop putting on a good program is about all I can control these days, and helping some scouts make a good memory is all I really care about because it's the only thing that I can do that might help scouting.

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

One of the key differences here is the fact that we’re not dead. Most memorials are built on that premise, though they very much honor the horror that inflicted that death and the collateral pain and damage, as well.

I'm not trying to argue, but, I thought you said people have committed suicide related to this.

The Vietnam Memorial, Holocaust memorials and just local war memorials mean as much to those that survived as relatives to those that didn't. Again, I'm not trying to, as you've said, poke. I'm just explaining my thoughts.

7 hours ago, ThenNow said:

For many, it would be too much to bear. I think I would find it powerful for me. I can anticipate a real issue though. CSA is very unpleasant. Are people ready to honor those who’ve suffered such that they would go to such a place? If they didn’t, that would be another trauma layer (for me anyway).

I can believe that. It often takes a very long time for a memorial to be installed.

I'm just curious, but from the victims in this, what helps? Does talking to other victims here help? Many pages ago someone mentioned a memorial. I've seen enough memorials and people crying at them to know they have power. A memorial sounds like a good idea to me. Has anyone raised that idea with the TCC?

I had a scout make a walking meditation path as a memorial for his younger brother who died in an accident. He built it at a hospice. Anyway, it was one of the most impressive projects I'd ever seen. This scout was fairly screwy but he knew what he was going to do for this project when he was 11 or 12. It just took until he was 17 to get done with all the other requirements.

16 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Yep.  We keep re-circulating the same discussions.  It's to the point that I just have contempt for discussions about "scout-led" or "patrol method" or many others.  The very adults that say they are doing it so well then at the same time subvert the program.   I've sat in and participated in years of debate.  Only to see it rarely done well.

Are you saying that anyone that thinks this is simple or easy is likely missing something? If so, I agree. There are some fine lines between helping and hindering. That alone is a good topic.

16 hours ago, fred8033 said:

At this point, I'd much rather listen to discussions on where can we go camping?  What's new that the scouts have never done before thru their school or with their families?  I'd much rather listen to training on how to run a good camp fire program.  

I've said this many, many times.  I'd put our scouts up with any scout troop out there.  We might not be as shiny.  Our patrol lines might not be snap at attention straight.  ... BUT, our scouts have the miles under our belts and do the work.  Our scouts easily average far over a hundred nights of camping and stories to tell.  

I don't think I understand what you're saying. To me, this sounds like a) there's no point in talking about any of this and b) your troop does it right. So how did you get to the point where your troop does it right? How does the new SM, just in from being a den leader because nobody else will volunteer, figure this out by going to a single source? No need to buy rare books on ebay.

I'm looking for a common theme and how to make it concrete so leaders can easily use it to, for example, understand how to answer questions from random scouts walking up to adults because that's where the answers have always been or how to deal with cell phone on high adventure trips.

Most of what I learned came from outside any training I got. To me, the way I learn, the training was nearly worthless. Some things I figured out, like how to deal with conflicts between scouts (your go ask the PL scenario). Things like having patrols do their own thing was a long drawn out, 2 steps forward 2 steps back kind of thing that was a constant challenge not only with the scouts but with the adults as well. I completely understand your comments about your patrols not being shiny but that you have scouts making great memories. Again, another fine line between how adults should encourage scouts.

And maybe that's the theme - how adults best encourage youth. It's an age old problem. The biggest challenge I ever had was encouraging scouts to own a responsibility or do their best. There was never a one size fits all strategy. The common description is train them and trust them but didn't appreciate the wide range of personalities of scouts. Some scouts respond to a challenge while some respond better to success.

On 6/20/2021 at 12:36 AM, David CO said:

I totally disagree.  The problem is the rules.  Stupid rules.

The rules can be a pain but they didn't cause any of the mills we complain of. FCFY is not a rule.

On 6/19/2021 at 6:16 PM, mrjohns2 said:

I’ll tell you this - the troop leader handbook, wood badge, IOLS, BALOO, online trainings galore, and round table haven’t thought me much. I got back in 2.5 years ago with my girls. I draw some of the most upon my experience on camp staff nearly 30 years ago and my troop growing up nearly 35 years ago. Ask Andy is pretty darn good too. 

I agree with you. Unfortunately that is the go to method. You have to figure it out on your own.

On 6/19/2021 at 6:14 PM, mrjohns2 said:

I read a blog about management and becoming a better manager. She does a great job with advice as she almost always provides advice and then often a script. She said she includes words to say as it is a hard jump for many from advice and then “how do I DO that”. 

Right. A vague description does not explain how to solve typical problems. I like the idea of stories. I remember my wife, way back when, having to read case studies in MBA school. They were very specific dives into a problem that one company had. It wasn't general, but if your problem was close then you could find useful info.

There are certain themes on this forum that keep coming up and recently there has been a group that stands out to me. There's the AOL thread, the OA thread and a discussion about commissioners. And they all have a pattern to them. Some aspect of the BSA program is broken. It can be advancement and bored AOL scouts, how the OA is a "self licking cone" or how commissioners don't do any good. These are the recent examples but others include the merit badge program, rank advancement or patrol method, to pick a few.

We talk about what's wrong and eventually it gets to the fact that this part of the program is not being run correctly. The adults don't understand the purpose of that program and just look at getting scouts signed off or cheap labor for summer camp. The goal shouldn't be FCFY, it should be enough fun and scout led that the requirements just get signed off anyway, or the OA really is a group of stellar scouts that are helping their units improve, or the commissioners are good mentors that know how to work with SM's (and the SM's know how to accept constructive criticism). The patrol method is how leadership is really developed. These discussions are really good. There is information here that I don't see anywhere else.

That eventually leads to a discussion on fixing it. Sometimes people mention rule changes but those eventually get shot down because, after a lot of discussion, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules. The issue is the adults not understanding how that program part should be used to fulfill the aims of scouting. And for the most part, that's where the thread sits. The thread dies off and we move on until someone else brings up a problem with, say, an old SM swearing at a new SM. Sometimes @Eagledad brings up the fact that it takes a leader with vision to make this work.

Neither of these "solutions", which both amount to saying "just do it the right way," are at all satisfying to me. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about anyone here or any of these discussions. But after watching these threads for years all I can think of is that if it were that easy then it would have already been done and we wouldn't be talking about MB mill summer camps, Eagle mill troops/parents or adult led troops. When a thread came up with one of these problems the first person would say "here's the root of your problem, go read/do this" and a month later they'd come back and say "wow, you guys are brilliant. My whole troop has transformed." But that never happens. There's a problem when the fundamentals of the program are so poorly done and the resulting answer is to take the training or just go read BP's or Hillcourt's work. I don't want to pick on Eagledad, because he's really contributed a lot to these discussions, but it shouldn't take a visionary to do the basics well. (my apologies to EagleDad if I'm misinterpreting his ideas.)

A while ago I suggested that the BSA needed to simplify the program. My reasoning was that there are so many parts to the BSA and if they aren't helping then they should be removed. Now I'm thinking differently. There's a simple aspect, common to the many parts of the BSA, that needs to be better understood by everyone. And by everyone I mean all the scouts, parents, volunteers, and professionals. I think it has to do with understanding the aim of scouting but writing a couple dozen words on a power point slide is not conveying it. It's not enough to say this program is about making ethical decisions. If it were enough then we could point to those words when someone says their cub scouts are bored at First Year Camper programs and someone would know what to do. Clearly national doesn't know either because, well, there would be no need for this forum, otherwise .

So, what is the common thread among all the "adults aren't doing it right" threads? And, how do we teach, train, coach, wedge into the brains of all those volunteers that want to do right, but are clueless, the answer that will get them progress? Is it a class, a series of classes, a video, a bunch of stories, a volunteer progressive program (with patches at each level/rank, of course) that slowly builds understanding, or what? Let's just say it can't include a mentor. I have no problems with mentors but we don't have enough of them.

The reason I'm asking stems from a comment from @ThenNow, who asked if people were heartened (I think that was the word) about the supposed agreement on the bankruptcy case. My first thought was it doesn't matter, the BSA has been on this slow slide and whether the bankruptcy speeds it up or not, it doesn't matter. There's a core idea to scouting that both makes it unique and, I believe, will make it stronger. I'm just trying to better understand it and how to convey it to others.

1 hour ago, David CO said:

How many units are in a Lodge?  

A lodge covers a council. Or at least it used to.

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-boy-scouts-near-civil-settlement-criminal-probe-looms-11624014001?page=1

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boy-scouts-near-bankruptcy-deal-with-largest-victim-group-11623949286?page=1

Could you please explain some legalese to me. The bankruptcy ends civil action but the MI AG is thinking about criminal prosecution? (I couldn't read the entire first article). I really am clueless about this area. I guess this means we will find out who knew what when?

Welcome to the forum, @TGB.

Put another way, it's foolish to assume there's no sexual abuse in 4-H.

10 hours ago, fred8033 said:

What I am betting is there is a definite difference in that 4-H doesn't have a 70+ years of records of volunteer incidents . 

It's hard for me to believe that the records the BSA kept had much impact on the situation they're in. There are over 80k cases. If most of those cases were in the records and that's how everyone found out about the cases then sure, the records led to where we are today. But there were only a few thousand cases in those records? Everyone has been surprised by the extent of this problem.

Why 4-H doesn't have nearly the number of cases is another question. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why but that's just me pondering.