Kudu

Kudu, the games and program plans have just been moved from the SM HB to the Troop Program Features. Yes, 53 of the 964 missing pages are Patrol Games divided into the following categories: SCOUTCRAFT GAMES--which may be used for teaching of or for practice in the various Scout Requirements. RECREATIONAL GAMES--for general fun, recreation and physical action and to provide variety in the game "menu." WIDE GAMES--over wide territory, involving various Scoutcraft features and physical exercise. They were included in the Handbook for Scoutmasters because it was the Scoutmaster's job to know them and to use them! The breakfast listed on page 762 was "developed for the National Jamboree, and included here as an ideal towards which to work." In other words weekend Patrol Cooking is practice for the semi-finals: week-long Patrol Cooking at summer camp with the National Jamboree as the ideal. This is very different from the current Cub Scout practice of Boy Scout summer camp as "a vacation from the Patrol Method"! Wouldn't you agree, Brent? Eamonn writes: A time long before I ever heard mention of Vision and Mission statements or maybe they just weren't trendy at that time? If someone asked me the purpose of Scouting? The only "purpose of Scouting" that counts is the Congressional Charter which mandates that the BSA use the Scoutcraft methods "in common use by Boy Scouts" in 1915. So the "very last word" on the purpose of Scouting can found in BSA publication #57-491: Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America: BYLAWS, ARTICLE I SECTION 2 PURPOSE The purpose of the Corporation is as set forth in the original certificate of incorporation under the laws of the District of Columbia, dated February 8, 1910, and restated in the Act of Incorporation enacted by the Congress of the United States of America on June 15, 1916, as follows: "That the purpose of this Corporation shall be to promote, through organization and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts." If only the Official Purpose of the Boy Scouts of America was as well known and practiced as the so-called "Mission Statement," all conservative Scouters and BSA Executives would be as Traditional as Kudu, wouldn't they? A Wood Badge Staffer might well wonder which has the greater priority, the methods in common use by Boy Scouts in 1915, or the manager methods used by Kenneth Blanchard: SECTION 7. PRIORITIES Clause 1.These Bylaws shall be consistent with the Charter. The Rules and Regulations shall be consistent with the Charter and the Bylaws. In the event of any conflicts or inconsistencies, the Charter shall govern primarily and the Bylaws secondarily. I'm sure there is a moral about "The very last word" in there somewhere Kudu

The "very last word" is that nowhere else on earth do Scouters embrace and celebrate their willful ignorance with more joy and abandonment than here in the United States. You guys sound like a bunch of little Scouts sitting around the campfire using logic to deduce the habits of snipe beyond the details you were told by someone you trust. In the rest of the world a Scouting association freely circulates its rules so that everyone knows them. Baden-Powell wrote 513 rules. No secrets. A rulebook in Scouting is usually called the "PO&R" (Policy, Organization, and Rules). It is so common for non-Americans to have a copy of the rules, that when Scouters of different Scouting associations meet they often exchange PO&Rs to show how their programs work. The BSA uses the pre-Gutenberg model: We rely on a centralized authority to keep us ignorant. Maybe that is why most Internet Scouting forums are American. Duh! In the olden days a Sponsoring Organization could simply order a copy of the rules. Even today we sometimes hear reports of copies being sold openly at a local Scout shop, but the people who start these stories always remain silent when requested to purchase a copy for someone else. In most Councils if you want to view the book of rules you must explain to your local Scout Executive why you can't just take his word for it. If you can convince him that you are not a potential troublemaker he may allow you to read the book in the Council office under his supervision. Supervision is necessary because most Councils allow you to take notes but not to photocopy the text. In America the government picks a corporation and guarantees it a monopoly on Scouting. To be a customer you must agree in writing to obey its rules sight unseen. As far as I can tell, the desirability of being kept in place through a willful ignorance of the rules imposed by a state-imposed corporate monopoly is one of the very few things upon which liberals and conservatives agree. The human brain is designed to detect patterns and give them meaning. Seldom does it recognize its own ignorance, so what it can not observe directly it often fills in with magical thinking. The downside of such magical thinking is the assumption that you can deduce the program rules from the BSA publications: That when the BSA dumbs the Scoutmaster Handbook down from the 1,142 page third edition to the current 178 pages, there is a corresponding rule change for each and every program detail removed from each and every one of the 964 missing pages. As if the official publication authors who attribute to Baden-Powell the American quotes featured so prominently in these missing pages are kept any less ignorant than us. Kudu

So are the Patrols close together, Cub Scout style? The closer the Patrols, the more you need leadership theory and personal growth pop psychology to "understand" Scouting. Kudu

Alternative Scouting associations get the same question from the opposite direction: "Can an Eagle Scout get credit toward the highest Baden-Powell youth Award?" To have an official policy for converting members of competing youth organizations is unScoutlike for the same reason that we discourage BSA Troops from "raiding" Scouts from nearby BSA Troops. One informal solution in the alternative situation is to appoint the Eagle as a Patrol Leader (similar to a "Troop Guide" in the BSA) and have him lead his Scouts from Tenderfoot through First Class. This gives him the opportunity to prove his stuff, serve the Court of Honor, and along the way to complete the many requirements missing from the US program. So you might ask your SPL to appoint the Royal Ranger as a Troop Guide. Baden-Powell required every King's Scout candidate to re-pass all of his Badges prior to being awarded the highest youth award (and to continue to re-pass them all on a regular basis thereafter or surrender his King's Scout Badge). So requiring an Eagle Scout to earn all his Merit Badges again is the same thing required from all B-P Scouts. Therefore it is not demeaning to ask the same of your Royal Ranger. Baden-Powell's program was all about the mastery of Scoutcraft so there are no artificial manager school "PORs" required of a BSA Scout who transfers to a Baden-Powell Troop. Leadership is just something that we should expect from the very best hooligans! Kudu

Most over-involved parent problems are solved when we follow Baden-Powell's simple advice: Separate those Patrols by 300 feet! The dynamics of "active adult participation" are far more obvious when we must get up and walk 100 yards to interfere. Kudu

What we Scouters "don't get" is that Scout Spirit requirements for advancement are designed to keep adults in control of the program. They are a product of the period of our history in which the BSA was outspoken in its hostility to Baden-Powell's Patrol System which put Patrol Leaders in charge of the Troop. Scout Spirit is a catch-all wild card for Scouters who lack the true Spirit of Scouting. To paraphrase gwd-scouter, in actual practice we most often report using the requirement to punish Scouts for 1) not wearing the clown-colored 1980s indoor dress-designer Uniform and 2) not attending poorly-run meetings. The "in your everyday life" bit reveals that we Americans have never bought into the idea that Scouting is a GAME. Scout Spirit in daily life should be the Aim of the Ideals Method, not a stupid moralizing roadblock to the other Methods (Advancement, but also commonly the Outdoor Method and the so-called Leadership Development Method). If a Scout gets arrested in his daily life then the game is not working for that particular Scout. Do we punish boys in other games for their lack of "sportsmanship" in their daily lives off the playing field? The inventor of Scouting put hooligans in charge of Patrols because they have the raw talent for his radical boy-run program. If you want to dabble in Scout Spirit, use the requirement to measure the Scout's UNDERSTANDING of Scout Spirit. One such tool is The Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/docs/spirit.asp Kudu

In some Councils the tough old 4-Bead geezers have migrated to IOLS and NYTL and these are now the new Wood Badge. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

MarkS writes: At the time, it was a judgement call of the SM who advised the board to put the higher priority on the aims of scouting instead of the methods of scouting...He is an Eagle Scout...Wood Badger including staff... Is it really any wonder that an Eagle Scout Wood Badge Staffer thinks that the Outdoor Method is not important? What do you think is the meaning of "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle"? It means that we believe that Lord Baden-Powell was wrong to require them to surrender their badge if they do not re-qualify for all of their Scoutcraft badges on a regular basis. And why is that? Because we believe that the Aims of Scouting that Eagles supposedly embody are more important than the absolute mastery of outdoor skills that "Eagle Scout" should represent. The ends justify the means. Likewise through their actions all Wood Badge Staffers support the dumbing down and out of the ONLY important Scouting Leadership skill: Outdoor Patrol Leadership. Why did we dumb the Outdoor Method out of Wood Badge? Why did we destroy the standards that were defended and preserved by the tough old geezers who once controlled Wood Badge on the local level? Because Den Leaders do not attend training in sufficient numbers to support their own Cub Scout Wood Badge. The ends justify the means. People who make the kind of personal attacks to which MarkS has been subjected are usually guilty of "projection." This is the hypocrisy of public condemning someone for the moral shortcomings that we are secretly guilty of ourselves. I don't know what the motivating personal blindness is in this case, but I'm sure that those who attack MarkS would never be so "brutally honest and not mamby pamby" in confronting the adults that "perpetuated the fraud" found in our BSA handbooks. How about the "out and out deceitful cheating" involved in making up the fake Baden-Powell quotes that pepper our publications? And why do our national "ethical choices" experts lie to Boy Scouts about reading Baden-Powell? Because if we lie and cheat about "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose," it lends authority to the fundamental moral fraud that the so-called Aims of Scouting (the "Purpose") are more important than the Outdoor Method (the "Game" of Scouting). The ends justify the means. If you want to disband or reorganize an organization under leadership that doesn't cheat, why not speak truth to power with the indoor values experts in Irving Texas? Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

The problem of Eureka Timberlines and wet sleeping bags is very easy to fix. Just add "small two or three man tent with bathtub bottom" as an optional item on your Troop's personal equipment list. Kudu

re-testing should be allowed or perhaps the BOR should be THE TEST Before the BSA discovered the Patrol Method, Scoutmasters were not trusted to test their own Scouts. Candidates for advancement were typically subjected to a battery of written examinations at a central location in the morning of what was mistakenly called a "Court of Honor," with a series of hands-on practical tests in the afternoon. An Eagle BOR should be preceded by a test of all knots, first aid, fire building, knife work, etc. before he gets to sit down and talk to the actual board. Baden-Powell did not have BORs, but he required the regular retesting of the qualifying badges both before and after being awarded King's Scout (the equivalent to Eagle): 432.(2) He must be repassed in all his qualifying badges once between twelve and eighteen months from the date of his being awarded the badge, except in the case of those badges which are marked with an asterisk, i.e. Ambulance Man, Interpreter, Pathfinder and Signaller, which must be repassed annually in accordance with Rule 436. The re-examination is normally carried out by an independent examiner, but in the case of those badges in italics the re-examination may be made by the S.M. or any other warranted Scouter. He must cease to wear the King's Scout badge should he fail in any of them. Kudu

Doesn't "always" equal "each and every"? That would be the standard in a Baden-Powell Troop. For most BSA Troops it is an experimental adventure. As for judging distance: Most Scouts understand "Set up a football field apart." Kudu

"Each and every campout"? This is a good example of the problem with Wood Badge: The hysteria with which its proponents attack any of Baden-Powell's actual methods, even as an experiment. Ten years ago this kind of Wood Badge behavior was directed toward anyone who proposed nylon zip-off cargo pants. Now we call them "Switchbacks." Concerning incompetent Eagles: Baden-Powell's requirement that a Scout re-qualify for all of his Badges on a regular basis would weed them out soon enough. Kudu

"Each weekend anything between 50 and 500 boys would be encamped" Hard to imagine those Scout patrols mentioned were camping the supposedly required 300 feet from each other. Gilwell park is only around 50 acres in size So even on the most crowded weekends the density at Gilwell Park was only 10 Scouts per acre. On slower weeks it was only one Scout per acre! Four acres per Patrol on average is plenty of room to practice the Patrol System between Jamborees. Beavah writes: OGE's right, this forum is mostly a unit volunteers group, eh? Other places have more gold tabbers. No, Beavah, the interesting event here is the swooping down of the outspoken (in other threads) proponents of "21st Century" Wood Badge to discourage unit volunteers from daring to experiment with Baden-Powell's traditional methods. The most visible function of Wood Badge is to keep Patrol leadership dumbed-down to the indoor Den Leader level. Ten years ago the most visible function of Wood Badge was to keep the Uniform Method dumbed-down to the indoor dress-designer level. Lesson Learned: If we flatly reject the bad ideas of Wood Badge, the "Gold Tabs" will follow. Kudu B-P's Aim (the pretty words) = Producing citizens of character who are service minded. B-P's Method (the meat and potatoes) = Separate each Patrol by at least 100 yards to develop the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit.

1) The function of the BOR is to keep the program adult-run. The Board of Review dates back to the period of our history before the BSA accepted the validity of Baden-Powell's Patrol System. In B-P's Patrol System, the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in council) maintains the quality of the Troop's program, which is why B-P called it the "Court of Honor". 2) Retesting is a cornerstone of Baden-Powell's program, both before and after an Award is earned! To meet B-P's standards, an Eagle Scout would be required to prove his proficiency in all of his badges on a regular basis or surrender his Eagle badge. There is no "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle" free-ride in Traditional Scouting. Kudu

To be accurate, we need to know who first said it and coined it, and when and where. It was not "first said," it evolved in written publications as detailed above. According to the 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters (3rd edition) Forward by Elbert K. Fretwell, BSA Chief Scout Executive, "The manuscript was written and researched conducted by Mr. William Hillcourt, Assistant to the Director of Publications." Therefore, the burden of proof is on anyone who puts quotes around "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" and attributes it to Baden-Powell. In most of the world that is the standard of scholarship expected from every 6th grader. As far as I can tell "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" is first attributed to B-P in the introduction to the old "Scoutmastership Fundamentals" course outline. One of the senior executives at BSA HQ arranged for me to talk to their manuscript department so that I could track down that author and ask him where he came up with the quote. In the course of an afternoon of calls and call-backs the head of the department finally reported that she could not find the manuscript and asked "Just who is this Mr. Powell, and why is he so important?" Kudu

Yeah, who really cares? Will anybody notice? Even if they do, who is going to say anything? Sounds like the makings of a great Scoutmaster Minute.

I wasn't involved in the Margaret thing but I did read the thread...and I just went back and read it again. And I agree with Gold Winger. Her question was asked and answered. I'm not sure who said anything that was abusive or impolite... Maybe it's a chick thing

Every campout is like a game in the season, where we try to get better, learn from our mistakes and increase our skills. When the Super Bowl comes, you want to be at the top of your game, be the best you can be, because you are going to need all those skills to have a great trek. That is a good analogy for Patrol Cooking at summer camp as well. My only concern is that since I didn't meet either BP or Greenbar Bill face to face, I'm not sure if this competition is considered Parlour Scouting... The Tenderfoot fitness requirement is a classic example of Parlour Scouting. The best way to deal with bad Scouting is to read the requirement carefully and then interpret it in the "no stumbling block" way that Ed suggests. By the way, Beavah's recommendation of simply tying a rope to a tree appears as an illustration in Scouting for Boys as one of the best ways to provide the kind of exercise that boys actually crave. Baden-Powell established Scouting as the game-based opposite of school ("education" vs. "instruction"). All Parlour Scouting requirements (from Tenderfoot pull-ups to the three [3!] Citizenship Merit Badges) are created by shortcutting the "Aims of Scouting" with school techniques that boys have hated since time immemorial. Physical and military drill was the reason that Baden-Powell abandoned his early approach to Scouting as a game that could be used freely by any existing youth organization. This is why there is no real trademark on the basic elements of Scouting that existed when it was a free program, including the word "Scout" and associated terms such as "Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, etc." Associations like the YMCA and Boys' Brigade ignored the distinction between education and instruction and made the same mistake as the BSA makes now. To reverse the use of such physical and military drill in the name of "Scouting," B-P established his Boy Scouts Association as a separate organization. For those who are interested in how Scouting should reach the "Aim" of physical fitness (and how you might fulfil the Tenderfoot fitness requirement by practicing Real Scouting), here is an excerpt from Baden-Powell's Aids to Scoutmastership: II. HEALTH AND STRENGTH THE VALUE of good health and strength in the making of a career and in the enjoyment of life is incalculable. That is pretty obvious. As a matter of education one may take it to be of greater value than booklearning and almost as valuable as Character. We in the Scout Movement can do much by giving to the boys some of the training in health and personal hygiene which is so essential to their efficiency as citizens. ... With only half an hour per week in the ordinary Scout Troop meeting it is not possible for us to give formal physical training, but what we can do is to teach the boy to be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE TO HIMSELF FOR HIS HEALTH-how to secure it and keep it; also we can teach him a few exercises that will help him to develop his strength if he will practice them in his own time; and we can interest him in outdoor activities and games as being not only amusement for him but of practical value in making him sound, strong and healthy for life. Health of body involves health of nerves and health of mind. Here our character training meets the physical. BE FIT! ... There is much talk of developing the physical training of the rising generation on a much more general basis, and in this direction lies a tremendous opening for our work. But I want to warn Scoutmasters against being led by this cry on to the wrong tack. You know from our chart on page 17 [ http://inquiry.net/images/sm023.jpg ] how and why Character and Physical Health are two of our main objects in Scouting, and also the steps by which we endeavor to gain them. But bear in mind physical health is not necessarily the result of physical drill. The physical training given in the Army has been carefully thought out, and is excellent for its purpose. It is suited to the more formed muscular system of the man, and soldiers improve tremendously under this intensive form of training. But it is often artificial, designed to make up for what has not been naturally acquired. God didnt invent physical jerks, The Zulu warrior, splendid specimen though he is, never went through Swedish drill. Even the ordinary boy, who has played football and has kept himself fit by training exercises between whiles, seldom needs physical drill to develop him afterwards. It is good open-air games, hiking and camping, and healthy feeding coupled with adequate rest which bring to the boy health and strength in a natural and not an artificial way. Nobody will disagree with this. It is quite simple in theory, but in its practice we find some few difficulties to overcome. ... ORGANIZED GAMES One of the objects of Scouting is to supply team games and activities which can promote the boys health and strength and help to develop his character. These games have to be made attractive and competitive, and it is through them that we can inculcate the elements of pluck, obedience to rules, discipline, self-control, keenness, fortitude, leadership and unselfish team play. Examples of such games and practices are climbing of all sorts, ladders, ropes, trees, rocks, etc.; stepping-stones and plank-walking competitions; hurdle racing over staves supported on forked sticks; Spottyface for strengthening the eyesight; ball throwing and catching; boxing; wresting, swimming, hiking, skipping, hopping fights. relay racing, cock-fighting, folk-dancing, action songs and chanties, etc. These and many other activities open a wide and varied program of competition for Patrol against Patrol, which an imaginative Scoutmaster can apply in turn to develop the physical points required. Such vigorous Scout games are to my mind the best form of physical education, because most of them bring in moral education as well, and most of them are inexpensive and do not require well-kept grounds, apparatus, etc. It is important to arrange all games and competitions, as far as possible, so that all the Scouts take part, because we do not want to have merely one or two brilliant performers and the others no use at all. All ought to get practice, and all ought to be pretty good. Games should be organized mainly as team matches, where the Patrol forms the team. In competitions where there are enough entries to make heats, ties should be run off by losers instead of the usual system of by winners, and the game should be to find out which are the worst instead of which are the best. Good men will strive just as hard not to be worst as they would to gain a prize, and this form of competition gives the backward man most practice. We in the Scouts can show every boy, town or country, how to be a player of games, and so to enjoy life and at the same time to strengthen his physical as well as his moral fibre. ... DRILL One hears a great many people advocating drill as the way to bring about better physical development among boys. I have had a good deal to do with drilling in my time, and if people think they are going to develop a boys physical strength and set-up by drilling him for an hour a week, they will meet with disappointing results. Drill as given to soldiers, day by day, for month after month, undoubtedly does bring about great physical development. But the instructors- these are well-trained experts-have their pupils continually under their charge and under strict discipline, and even they occasionally make mistakes, and heart-strain and other troubles are not infrequently produced even in the grown and formed man. Furthermore, drill is all a matter of instruction, of hammering it into the boys, and is in no way an education where they learn it for themselves. As regards drill for Scouts, I have frequently had to remind Scoutmasters that it is to be avoided-that is, in excess. Apart from militarist objections on the part of some parents, one is averse to it because a second-rate Scoutmaster cannot see the higher aim of Scouting (namely, drawing out of the individual), and not having the originality to teach it even if he saw it, he reverts to drill as an easy means of getting his boys into some sort of shape for making a show on parade. At the same time, Scoutmasters occasionally go too far the other way, and allow their boys to go slack all over the place, without any apparent discipline or smartness. This is worse. You want a golden mean-just sufficient instruction to show them what is wanted of them in smartness and deportment, and a fund of team spirit, such as makes them brace themselves up and bear themselves like men for the honor of their Troop. Occasional drills are necessary to keep this up, but these should not be indulged in at the expense of the more valuable Scout training. All The drill we require in Scouting to set our boys up, and get them- to move like men and not sheep, is a few minutes silent drill at the beginning of a meeting or an occasional game of OGrady says. Although we do not want to neglect drill altogether, far preferable is the drill in fireman- ship, trek cart, lifeboat launching, bridge building, and other sets of exercises. These demand equal smartness, activity, and discipline, but the point is that each boy is using his head in doing his own particular share of the work for the success of the whole team. Moreover, competitions in these are of highest interest to the boys as well as to the onlookers. An ulterior point is that they can breed morale and fair play. It should be the thing for the boys never to bear envy or to mention unfairness of judging or of the opponents tactics when their team is defeated, and whatever disappointment they may feel they should only show cordial praise for the other side. This means true self-discipline and unselfishness, and it promotes that good feeling all round which is so much needed for breaking down prejudices. I know a very smart regiment in which the recruits received very little drill; when once they had been shown how to hold themselves they were told that as soon as they could do it habitually they would be allowed to go out and take their pleasures and their duties as ordinary soldiers. It was "up to them to smarten themselves up instead of having deportment drilled into them for months. They drilled themselves and each other, and passed out of the recruit stage in less than half the ordinary time. Education as opposed to instruction once more! The result was obtained by putting the ambition and responsibility on to the men themselves. And that is exactly the way by which, I believe, you can best produce physical development among boys. But, after all, natural games, plenty of fresh air, wholesome food, and adequate rest do far more to produce well-developed healthy boys than any amount of physical or military drill.(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Allangr1024, you are to be commended on going the extra mile to verify something before repeating it. Too often in today's culture we believe that the ends justify the means. This is true even in Scouting, where we should value trustworthiness in all things, no matter how small. Eamonn and FScouter are correct: The quote was intended for Scoutmasters. You can see the wording of "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" develop over time in the BSA handbooks. It started when William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt first added the idea of Scouting as a "purposeful" game to the third edition of the BSA's Handbook for Scoutmasters where he paraphrased that Baden-Powell quote that you found: "Here, then, is Scouting in a nutshell: A game for boys under the leadership of boys with the wise guidance and counsel of a grown-up who has still the enthusiasm of youth in him. A purposeful game, but a game just the same, a game that develops character by practice, that trains for citizenship--through experience in the out-of-doors" [emphasis in the original]. Hillcourt then refined this idea as one of the "Ten Essentials of Scoutmastership:" "A realization that to the boys Scouting is a game--to you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training." In the fourth and fifth editions of Handbook for Scoutmasters the idea appears under the heading "Scouting is a Game": "Yes, to a boy Scouting is a game--a wonderful game, full of play and full of laughter, keeping him busy, keeping him happy. Scouting is 'learning by doing' things that are enjoyable--exciting things! "That's the strength of Scouting! A boy becomes a Scout for the sheer joy there is in it: "To you and me Scouting is a game, also--but it is more than game of fun. To us, it is a game with a purpose--the purpose of helping boys to become men by training them for citizenship. "Training for citizenship--that's the aim of Scouting " [emphasis in original]. On page 13, the words that appear in boldface type on page 12 (above) were excerpted as a heading for four photographs in the form we are familiar with today: Scouting is a Game with a Purpose. The problem with this shortened version is that (to paraphrase Eamonn), it places too much emphasis on the "purpose." See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm allangr1024 writes: It is sales work. I know that some committee person ought to head it up, but we are lacking in that area. Nah, make the pitch yourself and do it in person, not through fliers. Start with the youth in the church where you meet. My experience in using the presentation below is that 2/3 - 3/4 of all sixth grade boys want to join Scouts if you pitch Scouting as guns, arrows, matches, knives, rattlesnakes, bears, and learning all the first aid skills they need to be a hero some day. In other words: Pitch the "Game" not the "Purpose"! See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Kudu

Beavah writes: Just because they're outside our individual comfort zones as adults doesn't strike me as bein' relevant, eh? It is the sub-text of all such discussions, isn't it? Beavah writes: Should the lads have to demonstrate their backpackin' skill as a small group, but well separated from other youth and adults (for the whole 5-day trek)? Should the lads have to demonstrate paddling skill as a small group on a river, but well-separated from other youth and adults - runnin' their own safety, makin' their own decisions, watchin' their own pace, and weather, etc. When you wonder if "such independence shouldn't be our goal in all of scoutin'," you are not exploring "counter-cultural" notions, Beavah, you are expressing Scouting's true "Traditional Values." As outlined below, those activities were standard requirements in Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association. So why do so many Americans love to quote his Aims but insist that his methods are "old fashioned"? I think "That is too old-fashioned" is the Scouter equivalent to when a kid says "I hate that!" when he really means "That is outside of my comfort zone!" Beavah writes: That's why not everybody should be a MB counselor for whitewater, and why in Venturing we use consultants. The question is what opportunities and challenges we provide for the kids, not what we personally are good at Yeah, "should." I wonder how often a Troop gets beyond the comfort level of its adult leaders, except at summer camp where Scouts have a few more options. For many Troops the program does not get very far beyond what is required for advancement, does it? In the thread "13/14 Year Old Eagle Scouts" you wrote "Eagle shouldn't be a middle school award. Not even for a bright, high-achieving middle-schooler." The problem is that while the book-learning instruction (which is intentionally excluded from Scouting in B-P's program) is at high school level, what remains of the English progression toward total independence in the wild at King's Scout, ends in the BSA with the five mile hike. B-P's Second Class hike is eight miles without an adult or older Scout. The BSA five mile hike is not as ambitious but it is not too bad: Notice that it does not actually require adult supervision! But there you go: If that kind of true independent accomplishment is what Scouts really crave, then building outdoor independence on the road to Eagle ends at Second Class, which before 1972 was usually earned around 7th grade. So given the current outdoor requirements, Eagle as a middle-school award is about right. Here is the sequence of Baden-Powell (some are after 1938) with some of the adult-free land or water requirements that you suggest: Second Class: Go by day, on foot, with other scouts on a journey of 8 miles. - Your Patrol Leader will set your route, and a specific objective will be given. - Make an oral report from notes to your Patrol Leader immediately upon your return. - Your Scoutmaster must know your hiking route, and must approve your plan in advance. - If additional Scouts are taking the test, each will report independently. First Class: Primitive Camping. Build and sleep out in a bivouac and cook a backwoods meal. The First Class Journey. Go on foot, with three other Scouts, on a 24-hour journey of at least 15 miles. - Make all the necessary advance preparations, and organize the packing of food and gear. - In the course of the journey, you must cook your own meals, at least one of which must include meat or a protein substitute. - Find a campsite and camp for the night. - You must carry out any instructions given by the examiner as to things to be observed on route. - Make a log of your journey sufficient to show you have carried out those instructions, and submit it within one week of your return. Scout Cord (Star) (Explorer Badge) (optional, but encouraged) 1) Arrange and carry out an expedition for yourself and at least 2 other Scouts, of not less that 2 days and 1 night duration to a place you are not familiar with. - All equipment to be carried in backpacks and to include food. - Each backpack to weigh not more than 30 lbs. Bushman's Cord (Life Scout) (Venturer Badge) (required) 1) Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part. - The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, Signalling over distance. - Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops. 2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with not more than 3 other Scouts. - Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. - Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a backpack. - Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food. - The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required. King's Scout (Eagle) (Senior Explorer Badge) (optional, but encouraged) - Take part in an expedition with not less than 3 and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback. - The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party. - All Scouts in the party will take an equal part in the planning arrangements before and during the expedition, but it is not necessary that all participants should be under test. - A detailed log of the expedition must be kept be each member of the party, having previously agreed between themselves a different emphasis for each log - eg weather, geography, history, architecture, archaeology, botany, ornithology. - The route and special log subjects must have the prior approval of the examiner. - An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites. - An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. - An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. - An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part. (This message has been edited by Kudu)

This just in from South Africa: Some corrections from my former Scout: 1) "I suppose it does make me the top guy, but in bouldering, not sport climbing :)" 2) "I'm doing my final year of Masters in Finance at the University of Cape Town." Regarding Bergsteigen: Basic Rock Climbing: "That book is actually what started it all. Every one of my first adventures here in South Africa was a direct result of what I read in those pages. The techniques used were horribly out of date, but we managed not to kill ourselves til we learnt the proper way of doing things."

Beavah writes: Yah, Kudu, I think B-P reserved "Parlour Scouting" for his criticism of the James West / BSA corporate-headquarters types, eh? I can't think of any time he used it to refer to camporees or jamborees. If I read the 8th footnote in Chapter 15 of Tim Jeal's biography of Baden-Powell correctly, B-P uses the term "Parlour Scouting" in a June 1927 memo to James West and others about "West's encouragement of vast 'community gatherings,' which left no scope for a sense of adventure. American boys were hampered too by numerous regulations governing the amount of equipment which had to be taken on expeditions and the exact ratio of adult supervision. Baden-Powell described such highly organized camps as 'Parlour Scouting'." As OGE points out, B-P encouraged some "vast community gatherings" of his own. Certainly the circus midway atmosphere can be an exciting novelty. The downside of Camporees is that new volunteers often see model midway Troops set up on a tight grid in a small area (where each Patrol magically has the exact same number of identical tents) and assume that this is what Scouting is all about. OldGreyEagle writes: What I read is that the scouting movement is a brotherhood of service producing citizens of character by means of camping and pioneer training. The Troop is to be boy led.... B-P is very specific about how to camp so that a Patrol is truly boy-led: "each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit." The fact that you think B-P's pretty words about citizenship and character justify stamping out his actual methods to achieve those ends speaks volumes about the downside of forcing Scoutmasters to attend a Wood Badge designed for Cub Scouts just because they share the same abstract goals. Camping close together in family campgrounds is the Den Method. Eamonn writes: We tended to do more Patrol Camps than seems to be done here in the US. Depending on where the Patrol opted to go, we either used the Troop van to drop them and the Patrol equipment off or they used light weight equipment and made their own way. Yes, Patrol Camping was also the objective of William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course in the States before 1972. But now that we must teach the same generic "leadership skills" to Scoutmasters and Den Leaders, how does ASM857 get from setting up an adult's tent with every Patrol to a practice where the Patrol Leaders are in control? Your idea of Patrol fences are probably the way to go 1) in his Troop where the parents micromanage the program to the point of forbidding Patrols to be 300 feet apart even in the safety of a Boy Scout Camp, 2) at Camporees and other situations where the space is actually tight, and 3) in Troops where the adult leaders simply prefer state parks and other family campgrounds. To me it is just a whole lot easier and a much bigger adventure to let the Patrols explore the woods for their own cool Patrol Sites. How else could you possibly interpret the 2nd Class requirement, "On one of these campouts, select your patrol site..."? Kudu

Beavah writes: Now here's a question for yeh: Does the same apply to Proficiency (Merit) Badges? Should lads who hold Backpacking MB be able to backpack on their own, well-separated from others? I go more by personality than policy, how about you? My short answer is that they should but mostly I provide opportunities for them to learn those skills. If they want to hike or climb alone it is up to them to arrange such excursions themselves. That is how we did it when I was their age. We never even considered asking our Scoutmaster for permission to go hike or climb. It should be more common in Scouting. To be considered a First Class Scout Baden-Powell required a "Journey alone or with another Scout" of 14 miles by foot or boat, or 30 miles on an animal or bicycle. From there the length of the Journeys increased with every rank. Solo or one-buddy Journeys were Baden-Powell's real-world test of Scoutcraft skills and the spiritual means to discover for oneself what he called "The Religion of the Deep Woods." It is interesting that Tim Jeal uses the term "expeditions" in the passage about Parlour Scouting in the parent thread, because "Expedition" was the term used to distinguish an outing on the move (such as a Patrol overnight hike or a solo Journey), from a "static" camp in one place (as described by Eamonn). The First Class Journey was dropped from the BSA sometime around 1927 when the Parlour Scouting memo was written. When I was a teenager, I spent an entire summer solo backpacking in the Adirondack High Peaks Region. I bought two months of dehydrated food from the Mormons, boxed it up, and left my parents a schedule of which post offices in the High Peaks area to mail the boxes to me general delivery in two week intervals. So I know that some teenagers are perfectly capable of rising to Baden-Powell's expectations, and they might stick around longer if we provided more of those opportunities. When backpacking on established trails with my last Troop, I did not have the same policy for all Scouts. The trick was to get them to pair off with a buddy who walked at a similar pace, and to let them change off during the day as necessary. Some of the Scouts could be trusted to meet us at the top of the mountain, or for lunch, or at the evening destination. Other pairs I would require to wait for a specific older Scout at every trail intersection. I'm getting old so I always work Sweep. How about Whitewater? Climbing? Both Whitewater and Climbing are outside of my comfort zone. I can not read moving water well enough to be responsible for a Troop of Scouts, and when technical climbing I tend to get machine-gun leg less than 50 feet up a vertical rock-face So when the PLC plans Whitewater or Technical Climbing I look for Scouters who are licensed guides or otherwise certified, and we pay them if necessary (by the way, this is where the Scouts meet competent outdoor women that they sincerely admire). The White Water stretches can only be run by one canoe at a time, so they do get a taste of being separated from the others. At the end of the day of canoeing, after the gear has been removed from the canoes and set up, the guides take them out to try the risky moves (including one-man canoe runs) that are likely to swamp the canoes. As far as climbing goes, I had a really difficult time with one 11-year-old Scout. It was impossible to keep him from climbing. He was a young prodigy who looked at every vertical surface as a puzzle that could be solved with multiple answers. He was tiny (4' 7"), and on his first day of summer camp he climbed up the inside of the main lodge's large stone chimney and down the outside. I was often in trouble because of him. I tried various sanctions until one day he pointed to the forward of Baden-Powell's Scouting Games and said with eyes flashing, "See, it says right here, Scouts are supposed to climb!" Knowing that I considered Baden-Powell to be the final authority on Scouting, he had me: Then in addition to the games mentioned in this book we have adopted other activities in the Scout movement in the shape more particularly of swimming and climbing. These are for the fuller development of the boys morally as well as physically. Morally, because swimming gives a sense of mastery over one of the elements and of fitness for service to them as a result of exercising pluck and perseverance; and climbing similarly gives a sense of self-reliance and power through achievement in overcoming a difficult adventure. They are good physically, because both activities are the better agents for developing health and strength in that they are not artificial like "physical jerks," "setting-up drill," etc., but are natural and appeal to the boy so that he continues to practice them voluntarily in his spare time. I gave him my old copy of Bergsteigen: Basic Rock Climbing, and tried to limit him and his younger brother to bouldering and tree climbing on BSA campouts that lacked qualified supervision (by 12 he was already organizing his own outings). He moved to Cape Town where he now studies economics. His climbing gets a significant amount of press coverage, enough so that Google corrects you if you spell his Lithuanian last name wrong He is now the top-ranked sports climber in South Africa, finishing more than 2,200 points ahead of his closest rival in the 2007 National Bouldering League Final. Kudu

Yes, OGE, Jamborees are Canvas Town Pageants. Even Baden-Powell used the parlour in his house to entertain guests on occasion. Why help brainstorm reasons not to try something new? Have you never even once in your lifetime of service tried out B-P's advice just to see if it works? What better real-world test of all our Scouting Leadership theories than to get those Patrols wide apart and see how well they actually do? Kudu

Eagle69, Camporees are what inspired Baden-Powell to invent the term "Parlour Scouting." They are a social event, not real Patrol camping. As far as the three National Forests in Arkansas are concerned, call them at 501-321-5202 and ask about "Primitive Camping." The Ranger who answers will tell you that you are allowed to camp "Almost anywhere between the sign that says you are entering the National Forest and the sign that says you are leaving the National Forest" except within a couple hundred feet of a parking lot and/or trail-head. Kudu