Kudu

"What did you enjoy most from the course you were on?" 1) The smell of the low-hanging wood smoke in the chilly autumn night as a Wood Badge Patrol one-half mile down the hill chanted their reply to the Eagle Patrol's challenge, "There ain't no flies on us!" 2) The first hard wood shavings catching fire as I started the breakfast fire while the rest of the Beaver Patrol slept through the first light before dawn. 3) On a late night hike following the campfire ceremony, the sound and smell of kerosene drenched rags burning as the SPL used his heavy wood torch to illuminate the single word "Trustworthy" on a handmade sign, then "Loyal" 150 yards down the trail, and so on until the twelve points had each in absolute silence been illuminated by the SPL over the course of a mile. Kudu

"However, what we cannot do is fly in to their rescue every time." Well, why not? This notion of "rescue" is perhaps the biggest difference between Scouting as it was understood by Baden-Powell and Scouting as it is conveyed by the often-heard catchphrase "boy-run." "The boys need to have a problem and use their skills to solve the problem, and there are many solutions." Why do Scouts "need to have a problem"? If most of your Scouts are 11-13, what Scoutcraft skills do they really already have to "solve the problem"? In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting the older Patrol Leaders are responsible for running their own Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes (and even Patrol Campouts) away from the Troop, but when the Patrols meet together as a Troop the Patrol Leaders (as a mature group) set the general theme for these indoor meetings or Troop campouts with the option of leaving the creative details to the Scouters. It is only when we do everything as a Troop (called the Troop Method) that adults get overly hung-up about making all aspects of these whole-Troop weekly meetings and whole-Troop monthly campouts "boy-run." Now, should Scouters teach Scoutcraft skills or should Scouters teach managerial skills to solve problems? My vote is Scoutcraft. Scouts can't come up with "many solutions" without first being taught some very specific basic skills. As you say, you have a new Troop with young leaders (the oldest is 14), and as others have pointed out this Troop does not appear to be using the Patrol Method yet. Well, how do you get from where you are to where you want to be, especially if your Scoutmaster is "a great guy but not real good at teaching and forcing things like patrol method"? You say that you are "pretty good at logistics". That should be your own personal path. If they express an interest in foil meals (but obviously have no idea how to do it), then someone attending the campout should teach them the specific logistics that he would use to cook. Don't try to teach 13-year-olds abstract problem-solving or logistics management and expect them to set off on a voyage of discovery in time to systematically determine and then study the Scoutcraft skills they will need when they get to the woods :-) By the way, if they want foil meals rather than oatmeal and hot dogs then perhaps they are looking for an upgrade. One way to stimulate more interest in cooking is for the adults to cook their own Dutch oven meals. Try to start cooking early enough before each meal so that the Scouts can smell your delicious food before they start to prepare their own humble hot dogs and oatmeal. If this in turn leads to one single Scout wanting to try Dutch oven cooking, then have the adults and the one Scout cook the same thing. Allow the most curious Scouts watch how the adults do it, then have the Scout or Scouts follow the exact same steps to cook the exact same thing. AFTER they have expressed an interest THEN teach them how. One way to teach cooking is make a demonstration in a Troop meeting of a Patrol of adults reading out-loud the titles of recipes from a backwoods cookbook (The Geezer Cookbook has a number of good recipes with gross titles like "Road Kill Stew"). The adults disagree on different recipes and then settle on one. One adult reads the ingredients out-loud, with another making an equipment list out-loud, and another making a shopping list out-loud. In the olden days this was called a "Stunt." A Stunt is different from a skit in that it conveys useful information in an entertaining format. And yes, the adults actually plan and run that part of the meeting! And then continue the Stunt as a practical demonstration at the next campout. When the best natural boy leaders (not necessarily the Patrol Leaders) have been taught specifically and successfully how to cook over a wood fire, AND in foil over charcoal, AND in a Dutch oven, AND with a camp stove, AND with a backpacking stove, AND with whatever other specific skills the adults in your Troop may have, THEN the Scouts (some of them anyway) will start to improvise and "use their skills to solve their problems" and discover "many solutions." This is the time for Scouts to make their mistakes and learn from them. The key to building the Patrol Method is in physically separating the Patrols. That can be difficult when cabin-camping. However, food and very sharp differences in taste can work for you during the long winter months. Then when it gets warm enough for tents, separate those Patrols by 200 feet and see what they learned about cooking. Kudu The Geezer Cookbook is available for free at MacScouter.Com: http://www.macscouter.com/Cooking/GEEZERCB.rtf

"I'll take your advice and let them learn the hard way." That is very bad advice. Planning in advance to punish the Scouts with a bad meal is a sure sign of laziness and total incompetency in the adult leaders. Why should the Scouts (and visiting Webelos) suffer because their leaders have not trained them in outdoor Scoutcraft skills and the Patrol Method? 1) Go with the Scouts' tin foil plan already in place. 2) Most Scout camps have a surplus of established campfire rings at this time of year. The ideal is one ring per Patrol (the further apart the better) but two can share a ring if necessary. If you can't find enough establish rings or metal surfaces, then ask the camp ranger for other suitable surface suggestions: old concrete or the far end of a gravel parking lot for instance. If separating the Patrols is not "possible" (read: the Patrol Method is not "convenient" to the adults), one possibility is to make a long line of charcoal that is three foil meals deep with a total length 15 times the width of each meal (for 45 meals), with each Patrol responsible for its own length of the line. This makes the heat manageable. The camp ranger will probably have such an area set aside for adult training courses. 3) Have one Scout or adult who knows what he is doing teach the Patrol Leaders (PL) how to cut up the ingredients, then have the Patrol Leaders take that knowledge back to their Patrols. If the Patrol Leaders are just Leadership Development popularity contest winners, the best way to sneak the Patrol Method into a Troop is through Scoutcraft instruction: in addition to the PL simply include one competent Scout from each Patrol in any practical lessons. Call him the "cook" or the "fireman" or something. It is also not "against the rules" to send in the Troop's most competent Scout when a Patrol is obviously having problems. Remember that the best Scout in the Troop is not necessarily the elected SPL or his appointed Troop Guide or Instructor. The good news is that the SPL will usually know that and will take advice if diplomatically given. If you always make an effort to recognize and include the most competent Scouts in these kinds of practical Scoutcraft instruction, they will eventually be elected to the proper positions (at least for a while). If you don't have any clue as to which Scouts in the Troop are the quickest studies, look first to the "wise guys," "trouble-makers," "class clowns," or other hooligans. They are usually the real leaders. 4) After the food is prepared the instructor shows Scouts from each Patrol how he builds the hardwood fire or charcoal bed for the adult meals. 5) After the charcoal is started the instructor then teaches Scouts from each Patrol how to combine the prepared food ingredients and fold the foil. 6) Consider buying cheap charcoal chimneys from a local store to get the charcoal started, see: http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=4040&f=23983 One chimney per Patrol is enough if you make sure they start new batches of charcoal as soon as the very top layer of coals in the chimney has small white patches (or small red spots after dark). Chimneys will be useful when your Troop discovers Dutch ovens. Charcoal chimneys do not require flammable liquids, and any 11 year-old can use one to start a perfect charcoal fire with a minimum of instruction. 7) You will need to shelter the charcoal beds if it is raining. Kudu

Winter Camping for Boy Scouts: http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/index.htm 100+ Winter Scout Camp Activities: http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/index.htm Winter Scout Games: http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/index.htm Vigorous Games (Winter Games for which Snow is not Needed): http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/vigorous.htm Historic Games: Dan Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone/Boy Pioneers (Boys' Organizations that Preceded Baden-Powell) Big Foot http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/big_foot.htm Animal Tracking http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/animal_tracking.htm Running the Gauntlet http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/gauntlet.htm Snowball Warfare: http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/snowball/index.htm Baden-Powell Winter Games: http://kudu.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/b-p_snow.htm Kudu

I helped organize the programs for two different national Baden-Powell Scouting associations (BPSA) in the United States. Basically, BPSA is an international movement that does Scouting the way it was practiced before the liberal modernizations that swept WOSM in the late 1960s (1972 in the United States). As such it is a very conservative approach to Scouting (some would say "reactionary"). However BPSA has no anti-3G policies because such things are against the law in all of the other Western countries in which BPSA exists. Like it or not, fgoodwin has nailed perfectly the challenge facing alternative Scouting associations. fgoodwin writes: "Have you heard of American Heritage Girls? "They are an alternative to Girl Scouts. Like the folks who formed SpiralScouts [sS], rather than simply complain about GSUSA policy, they actually went out and did something constructive: they formed an alternative organization. "Now, is AHG any more or less a "viable" alternative than SS? I have no idea, but I doubt if AHG started with any significant advantage in terms of infrastructure, training, potential members, etc. "And if SS hasn't grown, who's fault is that? Given the interminable bickering about BSA membership policies, one would think SS would have a ready-made universe of potential members -- so why haven't the people complaining about BSA put some action behind their words and flocked to SS?." Fred is exactly right. Liberals complain about the BSA membership policies but they do very little to establish Scouting associations for their young. At least one of these, The Navigators, received a very nice review in UU World some years back. More recently the BPSA-USA was very warmly received at the UUA General Assembly. However, UUA units failed to materialize in any significant numbers. Unitarian-Universalists and other liberals may believe that alternative Scouting associations are a good idea in the abstract, but they do not support them. On the other hand, The American Heritage Girls (AHG), established in 1995 (at roughly the same time as most of the other alternative Scouting associations), has grown to about 6,000 in 33 states. This may be very small by GSUSA standards, but AHG is certainly larger than all of the liberal and 3G-neutral Scouting associations in the United States combined. fgoodwin writes: "My point about the size of SS is that you mentioned they were not a viable alternative because of their size (lack of local units). I think that's a chicken-and-egg argument -- if they are small, its because the people who complain about BSA are staying in BSA rather than helping SS grow by actually joining them." I think I can shed some light on the "chicken-or-the-egg" argument. The truth is that there have never been many liberal sponsoring organizations in the United States. According to statistics compiled by David Peavy (the owner of bsa-discrimination.org) the total number of Unitarian-Universalist (UUA) units spiked significantly in 1973 (the year following the BSA's addition of the progressive "Leadership Development" Method, and its elimination of the conservative Uniform and "Scout Way" Methods), but the average number of UUA units nationwide in that decade was less than 85. Likewise the highest number previous to 1973 occurred in 1922 (combining the Unitarian and the Universalist units), but the average number of units in the 1920s appears to have been around 78. The strongest UUA involvement in the BSA appears to have been the 1950s with the average number of units for the decade being less than 88. All of these numbers are previous to the controversy over BSA membership policies! Compare them to the Mormons, with more than 31,000 units. The UUA is probably a good indication of liberal involvement in the BSA. Evidently it was the largest liberal sponsoring organization because if you look at the BSA Handbooks previous to the current edition, the UUA's "Religion in Life" award was described by the BSA as being for "Unitarian Universalist or members of other liberal groups." fgoodwin writes: "to claim that SS isn't big enough to have nearby units is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. If SS is to get big enough to have lots of local units, then people need to have the courage of their convictions and join them, thereby making it bigger and attracting even more members." Yes, in my limited experience the lack of local expertise is just an excuse. A small group of fathers at the UUA congregation a few blocks from my house wanted to establish a Baden-Powell Group. The project was warmly received by the minister who is a strong supporter of Scouting (his previous congregation sponsors a large Scout Troop that meets two blocks from Columbine High School). The bottom line was that the church could not find a couple of dads willing to contribute one night a week and/or one weekend a month to a Scouting unit consistent with their own values. fgoodwin writes: "So its the very people complaining about the lack of a viable alternative who are responsible for the lack of viability of groups like SS by not joining them. "Look at it this way: if people would join SS if only SS were bigger (i.e., have a lot of units nearby), how exactly is SS supposed to get any bigger if they don't join?" Exactly right. This is the exact opposite of Slouchhat's culture. In one of his first posts he wrote: "Scouts in Germany are very different from the rest of the world as they sort of mixed with the various independent youth organisations for which their outdoor activities are not a concept of education and training in citizenship, but a way to express their liberal, free-thinking views." Germany has more than 40 different Scouting associations (plus dozens of unaffiliated single groups). See: http://www.troop97.net/intscout.htm My guess is that none of them have anti-3G rules! The simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of liberals in the United States would never try to teach values by getting their knees dirty around a campfire once a month. SpiralScouts and all of the other liberal or 3G-neutral Scouting associations in the United States will never be a success until they understand why liberals in our culture are so very different from Slouchhat's culture. I have been trying to figure out the lack of UUA involvement in Scouting for ten years. My conclusion is that the answer to Beavah's question is that absolute viewpoints do a much better job of inspiring generosity, at least as can be measured by dirty knees. My last suggestion to the BPSA-USA was to look for the support of moderate Republicans (those seeking a traditional outdoor Scoutcraft program for their daughters, for instance). Unfortunately I do not have any practical suggestions for other associations beyond a careful investigation of the social dynamics of Scouting in Germany. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: "BTW, Kudu's hero, Bill Hillcourt was a serious Wood Badger, even serving as a Course Director." Does anyone have a course outline of Hillcourt-era BSA Wood Badge?

BrentAllen writes: "The first half of the first day is spent as part of the Cub Scout program, and at the Blue & Gold lunch, the participants cross over to Troop 1." OK, good point: Another reason for robvio to attend Wood Badge: 10) I find appealing the idea of spending a day as a pretend Cub Scout. I really want to join an adult Cub Scout Den. I look forward to a pretend Blue & Gold dinner. I want to commit to three long weekends run by management experts who think that kind of thing is cute. I enjoy the company of Cub Scout leaders for extended periods of time because the manager skills for Cub Scouts are the same as the manager skills for Boy Scouts. "Wow! I had no idea us Wood Badgers were in charge of making uniform decisions!" Participants generally leave Wood Badge with "a commitment to the Uniform Method" which often translates into strict enforcement with the same quality of blind obedience that we see demonstrated in this thread now. "What next, we are part of the vast right-wing conspiracy?!?!" You can often tell people's political positions from what they have to say about the Uniform or Wood Badge. The smear techniques are similar to the neo-conservative "black baby" campaign against John McCain in the 2000 South Carolina Republican primary. "You honestly think you have been the only one calling for a uniform change?" On the contrary. By the time I wore my first pair of olive-drab "zip-off" outdoor "Scout Pants" to a national training event, the BSA National Director of Boy Scout Training and some of the most highly-place senior BSA executives in Irving Texas were already trying to introduce what we now know ten years later as the official BSA Switchbacks. For a decade Wood Badge types continued to lash out at anyone who questioned the dress-designer "deeply-held values that the Uniform represents." BrentAllen writes: "This is painfully obvious. Is anyone else amazed at how Kudu can trash a program he knows so little about?" eagle-pete writes: "Amazed, yes... but also saddened that Kudu may be tainting the opinion of leaders who have not had the benefit of experiencing Wood Badge for themself - an experience which he claims to have had, and now feels obligated to rob from others." eolesen writes: "That takes the cake... I've been giving Kudu a little credit for bashing the course because I'd assumed he went thru it, but if he's never seen the course outline, then he's just bashing for the same of bashing, which is un-Scoutlike." Eolesen, when you assumed that I had attended the 21st century version, you insisted that my views were not valid because my "own words" revealed that I had not gone into the course with an "open mind." So this translates into more reasons for robvio to attend Wood Badge if he agrees: 11) I want to join the cult of the Unsinkable Rubber Ducky: Understanding it is impossible unless I have had the proper "Wood Badge Experience." If I am critical afterward it proves that I did not open my mind to this mystical "Wood Badge Experience" in an acceptable manner. 12) A manager course that is impossible to understand unless I take it over every time it is revised is a good investment of my time and money. According to this Wood Badge logic, BrentAllen is no longer qualified to discuss 21st century Wood Badge because his mention of the Blue & Gold "lunch" reveals that the Cub Scout content has doubled since he last attended. 13) I feel threatened when the relationship of training to the Methods of Scouting are discussed. It means that the topic has been hijacked. A moderator should close the topic before my fellow cult members "get really mean." Gonzo1 writes: "I personally think that a course that incorporates Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Venture Scouting, etc could have been ADDED, and not been the change to WB..." I agree completely. If the manager techniques are the same for Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venture Scouting, then simply introduce a new Leadership Development Method course and allow Wood Badge to continue as the Patrol Method course. "WB21C is not the old course we took." Yes, and since we are in the same boat I should warn you that the 21st century Wood Badgers will get "really mean" if you continue to speak in favor of attending Wood Badge because we are not qualified to talk about Wood Badge unless we take it over again :-/ "If I had to guess, I'd say Kudu is older, probably 60 something and kinda "stuck in his ways". Age does not prove much of anything. Do you believe that 13-year-olds are not qualified to earn Eagle because they "can not possibly understand what it means"? "I'm stuck in my ways. I prefer the green poly-cotton uniform, small collar to fold under..." Now that you mention it, I would prefer a Neckerchief-friendly collarless option (like in the 1960s) on the new shirt as well. I don't like folding them under. Gold Winger writes: "Good leadership hasn't changed since the days of Gengis Khan. Seminars might teach management but leadership is something that comes from within, classwork can hone leadership skills but can't create them." I agree. Do you have any observations about what the "Genghis Khan" gifted natural leader vs. "one minute manager" ratio is in any given Troop? (How often do you encounter a really gifted Patrol Leader?) Is the occurrence rate different in city vs. suburban populations? "However, as an outsider looking in, most of what Kudu says makes sense except for his love of nylon clothing." LOL, I have read your observations about "plastic clothing" with amusement :-/ Kudu

BrentAllen writes: "Careful - your lack of Wood Badge course knowledge is showing." For those keeping track of the reasons to attend Wood Badge, this is #9. "The CD is NOT known as the Cubmaster when the participants are grouped as dens." Well then, the obvious question is: "If the participants belong to Wood Badge Cub Scout Dens, why isn't the director known as the Wood Badge Cubmaster?" "Also, the Patrols do cook their own meals during the second half of the course." I haven't seen a course outline, but if Wood Badge had any practical value to Boy Scouting, its graduates would at least agree that all Boy Scout summer camps should have a Patrol Method cooking option. "Have you attended Wood Badge? If so, when and where?" Beaver, NE III - 137 "Did you stay in cabins, as your Troop does," Most Troops in the north stay in cabins in the coldest months, except for Klondikes and other challenging winter outings. Since you insist on personal confrontation, Dunwoody: I am a nationally certified BSA Okpik instructor, I staff all of my Council's five levels of cold weather training courses, and I am perfectly capable of facilitating whatever decisions my Patrol Leaders make regarding their winter accommodations. "or did you actually camp in tents?" We camped in tents with some of the Patrols 1/4 mile apart. We cooked on wood fires. "In fact, your quote supports my argument that B-P did take it from Dinizulu fort: 'To have stolen a Zulu ruler's property was thought underhanded and unpleasant, as was the idea of the founder of a worldwide multiracial brotherhood fighting against Africans'." The point of the passage is that this first version of the story was made up too. eagle-pete writes: "I have been reading through the posts in this thread, trying to determine what point Kudu has been making," I have made several short summaries of my points as Wood Badge readers declared that they could not understand. "and whether he has said anything that could be of benefit to another scouter - whether they chose to take Wood Badge or not. So far, I have found nothing from Kudu in this thread that I can see that could benefit anyone." robvio's question was straightforward: Is it worth the money and will it benefit his Troop? Wood Badge is a cult: its members can not even conceive of other points of view. "No matter what our personal opinion is - for or against Wood Badge - if any Scout Leader comes away from the training with something that can help them or their unit," It is a question of return on investment. If my simple Wood Badge Course Director test reveals that he is ignorant of the source of two of the most famous quotations in Scouting, then your efforts are better spent reading about the American Patrol Method from the original BSA source material: http://tinyurl.com/38zo9r (Look for the word "volume" in the description). "I don't see how bad-mouthing Wood Badge benefits Scouters, BSA, or the boys we serve...I would even go so far as to suggest that a moderator consider locking this thread before someone really gets mean." Your suggestion speaks volumes about Wood Badge mentality. Back in the early days of Internet discussion groups, I first noticed that this Wood Badge predilection towards blind obedience and "really getting mean" occurred when they were confronted with criticisms of the Uniform. Back then they even long-distance phone calls to my Council to report me for recommending nylon zip-offs to to my Scouts and for wearing them to National training events. Our secretaries complained about "those people from the Internet" :-) For ten years Wood Badgers have used personal attacks to avoid thinking about what a Scout Uniform should be: An Outdoor Method made of breathable nylon and free of clown colors. Now it appears that the new Uniform (except for the continuation of hemmed pant lengths and the redundant epaulet loops) is exactly what I have been recommending over the objections of Wood Badge "true believers" for a decade. You want to make it personal? I was right about the Scout Uniform and I am right about the Patrol Method! Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Lisabob writes: "I find it insulting that you use the language of Cub Scouting to air your grievances." I note that you did not answer my question: If the generic Wood Badge unit is called a "Den" at the beginning of the course (awww, that is so cute!!!!) is the course director called the "Cubmaster" until his Wood Badge Dens cross over? "Your last post makes it twice now, in this thread, where you've engaged in some implicit put-downs of Cubbing and Cub Scouters." Implicit? Well, I do not have much to say explicitly about the Cub Scout program. It is my impression that with the requirements of 12 day hikes, 6 night hikes, and 14 nights of camping, Baden-Powell designed his Cub program as more of an outdoor adventure than the BSA version and that the BSA program therefore appeals more to indoor boys. But if true that works to my advantage because I rely on recruiting in the public schools. Many of the boys I recruit dropped out of Cub Scouts, so the worse the Cub Scout program is, the better for me. My explicit criticism is that Boy Scout Wood Badge was dumbed down to fit the indoor leadership needs of Cub Scouters. This is why learning a few outdoor Scoutcraft skills in adult Patrols was removed from Boy Scout Wood Badge. We learn by example, and in Wood Badge we learn to do away with Patrol cooking for the sake of indoor classroom instruction. If Wood Badge participants were still required to cook their own meals over wood fires, trained BSA Scouters might not believe with such a great conviction that summer camp is a "vacation from the Patrol Method." Like Wood Badge, most Boy Scout summer camps are just Cub Scout camps with age-appropriate classroom material. "Cub Scouters work hard to deliver a quality program and deserve all of our respect, not derision." If they worked all that hard to deliver a quality program they would have attended training in numbers sufficient enough that the dumbing down of Boy Scout Wood Badge to make room for the least common adult denominator would not have been necessary. "I wish you'd stop that." I won't, and in all fairness I make the same criticism of Patrol Leader Training which was also dumbed down to the least common denominator for the indoor leadership needs of Troop Scribes, Troop Historians, Troop Librarians, and Troop Buglers. eolesen writes: "Maybe you missed the memo, but the teaching of Scoutcraft and other outdoor skills necessary for First Class is alive and well. They're just being done in a different course setting - IOLS. The patrol method is used as the primary method for running that course as well, so I think you're being more than just a little harsh in your opinion that patrol method is in any way being de-emphasized." I started as my Council's Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS) course chair more than a year before it was a required training course. The Patrol Method is not the primary method for running the course, it is merely a local option and the degree to which that option is to be used is explained to the participants in the Orientation session. Indeed, the section in the course outline on IOLS Training Techniques concentrates on the Buddy System, not the Patrol Method: "The focus on learning by doing makes the buddy system approach the key difference between this course and merely showing how to accomplish a skill." Note also that the Course Evaluation form asks the participants for feedback on the Buddy System, not the Patrol Method. Even in Councils where the Patrol Method is the "primary method for running that course" there is a big difference between a single weekend IOLS, and total immersion in the Patrol Method for the duration of a three-weekend Wood Badge course. And of course it is possible to get to Wood Badge without going through IOLS. What kinds of decisions are Committee Members who have been taught that Leadership Development Method Wood Badge is the "ultimate training experience" (but have never once in their life experienced the Patrol Method) going to make when they presume to sit down to write "Troop by-laws" or make any important judgements about their Troop's program? "If you'd like to save some time sitting thru Scoutmaster Fundamentals or Intro to Outdoor Leadership with a stopwatch, I'll be happy to send you a link to the syllabus for those two courses. Read thru them. Find me examples where the patrol method is de-emphasised, and then perhaps we can continue the discussion..." Sure, I will be happy to take a look. If I remember correctly "Scoutmaster Fundamentals" is the old course that presumed to present itself as the modern incarnation of Aids to Scoutmastership and then falsely attributed "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" to Baden-Powell. BrentAllen writes: "If you read Jeal closely, he does not state that "beads" were removed from the girl (as you do), but instead a necklace." The point is that the girl's necklace was a significant enough find for Baden-Powell to note it in his journal. He makes no such mention of acquiring a necklace from Dinizulu's abandoned fort. "Also, considering Dinizulu was a large man (6' 7") and the beads wrapped around him several times (12 feet long, over 1,000 beads), I find it hard to believe an African girl would be wearing them." You seem to assume that in South Africa there was only one necklace made out of yellow wood. The photograph reveals that Dinizulu's necklace only wraps around his neck and chest twice. There is no description of Baden-Powell's necklace so we do not know how long the one he took from a dead girl was, nor how many times it wrapped around her body. "My question - if B-P didn't get them from Dinizulu, then where else would he have gotten them?" From the source that he notes in his journal. "The South Africans appear to believe they were originally Dinizulu's, as they explain here:" The South Africans' account states only that "Captain Robert Baden-Powell - gained possession of Dinizulu's Necklace." Which is a rather skillful use of the passive voice, don't you think? It fails to cite any reference for its claim and it neatly sidesteps the fact that The Gilwell Book lied about how the necklace was acquired: "After the Second World War the origins of the 'Wood Badge' started to cause embarrassment. To have stolen a Zulu ruler's property was thought underhanded and unpleasant, as was the idea of the founder of a worldwide multiracial brotherhood fighting against Africans. So it became policy within the Movement to claim that Baden-Powell had been given the necklace by Dinizulu. 'This Change,' wrote the Deputy Chief Scout in 1959, 'was made first in The Gilwell Book and gradually in all our literature' [Jeal, p. 134]". http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Kudu

I was called back into service last fall in a similar situation. The Troop was over 60 years old but the acting Scoutmaster had driven all but four Scouts away. The "Feeder Pack" had folded under him when he was Cubmaster. The Troop had disbanded for the summer and I had arrived early on the first Monday of the new school year. The Sponsoring Organization (a Catholic church located in a declining neighborhood) had agreed to the Council's suggestion that they try to reestablish a Cub Scout Pack but it was obvious that the Troop would soon fold. As I wandered around the empty building, I made mental notes of how the Troop equipment might be packed up until some day years hence when the Cub Scouts of a yet to be established Pack were old enough to cross over and reestablish the old failed Troop. The starting time for the meeting came and went and then a couple of hooligans arrived, stinking of cigarette smoke. The older boy had left the Troop years before. He was 18 now but still in high school. His companion, 15, was a friend of his younger brother. They had all met in school detention and in conversation had discovered that they had all been Scouts at one time. The 15-year-old had made it as far as First Class in a Troop of over 80 Scouts. He had attended NYLT. I explained that the Troop was down to a couple of Scouts (if any of them actually showed up this year at all) and that the principal of the local school did not allow recruiting. The two teenagers looked at each other and laughed. I asked what was so funny and they replied that the Troop, the Council, and the District Commissioner had all been asking the wrong person! The vice-principal in charge of discipline (with whom they were both all too familiar) was active in Scouting and they could arrange a school assembly through him with no problem at all. I smiled at the over-confidence of youth, but what harm could they do? The next day I received an Email from their vice-principle inviting me to give a recruiting assembly during school hours! A year later we are up to almost two dozen active Scouts. It is easy to recruit Scouts if you can hold assemblies in a local school during school hours, but retaining them is a different matter. To do this you need at least one gifted Scout, and our 15 year-old hooligan rose to the occasion. He turned out to be a no-nonsense proponent of Scout-led Patrols, and the first thing to go were some of my favorite adult rules including no cotton and no electronic devices on campouts (as well as no cooking on Sunday morning, which he insists on doing himself). He quickly organized PLC meetings and excluded adults for the first couple of months. This galvanized the remaining older Scouts and brought a few back in. He is 16 now and SPL. His "street cred" and outspoken values (in the older, traditional Baden-Powell sense of practical outdoor values and public service) has brought an odd discipline to the group. A couple of weeks ago I told him that "Signs Up" would have to be respected and that I had a few suggestions (including Beavah's concept of consequences). He listened patiently as I rambled on about subtracting the number of minutes that the sign was raised from the number of minutes reserved for the game period. Then he simply raised the sign and stared the Troop down with a great intensity until everyone was silent. It was spooky. Not a word was said and the sign has been respected ever since. kahits writes: "We actually have a Middle school across from the church that we meet at, but have had miserable luck recruiting from that particular population of boys. The adult effort that was required is just not in the troop right now, considering the limited success they had a few months before we crossed over last January. But my son's charter school is a very different situation and I think we will be successful getting boys from that school, because of the way they structured it." The obvious question for me is "Can you get permission to hold a recruiting assembly in these two schools during school hours?" If you can, expect to get half of an audience of sixth-grade boys to sign up for Scouting. Of the group that signs up you should be able to talk about one-third of their parents into bringing them to a meeting (if you are motivated and self-confident). If your meeting delivers on the promise of adventure that you made in the assembly, almost all of them will register with your Troop. See: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=168355#id_169164 Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918).

eolesen writes: "pining away...complaining...isn't very productive...voiced the same type of criticism...acted as though there was nothing left to learn...from your own words...you didn't, either." Lisabob writes: "I find it insulting...to air your grievances" BrentAllen writes: "your disdain...a WB hater..." John-in-KC writes: "completely hijacked this thread...Kudu did" OK, here is Statement # 9, another incentive for robvio to attend Wood Badge: 9) When a volunteer offers views about improving Scouting that differ from my own, I turn the discussion around so it is all about him rather than Scouting (or I watch in silence as others do the necessary hatchet work). If you agree with that statement, then you will love the fraternity of Wood Badge! A more independent thinker might think, "I don't agree with everything Kudu says but, yeah, why did four Wood Badge types suddenly shift the discussion around to describing him?" I would like to believe that the final straw was my simple test of a Wood Badge course director: Before you take Wood Badge ask him "who wrote 'Scouting is a Game with a Purpose'?" If he answers "Baden-Powell" then he has not studied the American Patrol Method. Pure and simple. Certainly if a printed BSA publication mistakenly attributed a famous Steven Covey quote to Kenneth Blanchard, the phone lines to Irving Texas would be jammed with calls from Wood Badge Leadership Development experts. Such a basic error would be corrected in the very next printing because business management philosophy is important! But the Patrol Method? Not so much. My guess is that the raw nerve here is that we simply do not practice with adults the treatment of Patrol Leaders that Wood Badge feeds: we do not encourage the best Scoutmasters and Committee Chairmen to step aside after six months (or a year tops) so that other adults can get their turn at "learning how to be a leader." Nor does the ultimate 21st century expert on Scouting, Kenneth Blanchard. Hmmm, now why is that? When you find a really good treasurer, one that always shows up to Troop meetings at exactly the right time to collect money and write checks, one who always makes deposits promptly and always has an up-to-date printout of all of the Troop's sub-accounts, do you ask him or her to step down after six months (or a year tops)? I note with interest the topic "3 Years as SM - What a Ride." Do you Wood Badge Leadership Development experts all stand your Patrol Leaders up in front of the Troop when they finish their third year in that office and lavish them with similar praises? Or do you save that kind of thing for Advancement Courts of Honor after six months in office because your job is to teach "Leadership Development," and your most gifted leaders must step down after a year tops to free up the POR so that less talented boys can learn all about "Leadership Development" from you in your Patrol Leadership Development Skills Mills because... um... they told you in Wood Badge that is your job! Why don't your "Troop Elections" (which everyone one seems to believe teach such valuable lessons about "Citizenship") extend to the adult leadership positions with exactly the same six-month or one-year election cycle frequency? Could it be that a great Troop depends on a few gifted leaders in the critical roles of Scoutmaster, Committee Chairman, and Treasurer? Well then, could it be that a great Troop also depends on a few gifted leaders in the critical roles of Patrol Leader and Quartermaster? Here is a survey: Count the number of parents in your Troop. How many of them are really gifted with enough time to be a registered leader? OK, now count the number of Scouts in your Troop. How many of them are really gifted leaders? Be sure to count Baden-Powell's first choice: the hooligans with bad boy baggage like Fishsqueezer's SPL :-) Now subtract the ones that are too busy with sports or other resume-building interests to make Scouts a priority. My guess is that for every 8-10 Scouts you are lucky if you have one really gifted adult volunteer, plus an additional two or three that are dependable on a weekly basis. I submit that the ratio is about the same for any age group. For every 8-10 Scouts you are lucky if you have one exceptionally gifted Patrol Leader. By "gifted" I mean a boy that you actually trust to take his Patrol on a five mile hike or overnight Patrol Campout (on Scout camp property) without using the Troop Method (adult supervision). Can you afford to burn through a gifted Scoutmaster, Committee Chairman, and Treasurer every six months (or a year tops)? If not then you can begin to understand why Leadership Development Wood Badge (and the Patrol Leadership-burning POR Advancement requirements that it is designed to feed) is pure poison. I do understand that most people prefer the Troop Method along with its Webelos III/Wood Badge (catered food) summer camp. If that includes you (and let's be honest, most people like a nice Cub Scout vacation from the Patrol Method) then I have nine good reasons for you to go to Wood Badge! Kudu

LongHaul, The following was posted to Scouts-L on Oct 7th 2007 by Jay Lenrow under the Subject heading "New Uniform - Update": Yesterday at the National Meetings in Irving, I had the opportunity to actually see the prototype of the new uniform. I can report that the colors have not changed. The shirt is still desert tan but it is made of a quick dry fabric. The epaulets have remained but the tabs for Boy Scouts will now be a muted green color. On the left sleeve, there is a bellows pocket with a flap where the position patch goes. The troop numerals have a tan background with darker tan numbers. I could not tell if the patch is held on by velcro or not. Each of the chest pockets is a bellows type pocket with velcro closures. The overall look was very understated which made the colorful CSP and OA flap look somewhat out of place. The pants are an update of the switchback pants. Each leg has a large bellows type pocket with velcro closures. It is hard to tell but because of the size of the pocket, the zipper for the leg bottoms appears to be at or below the knee. It was unclear whether this was the actual new uniform or a work in progress. It was explained to me that this change came from National Supply, which has the authority to tweak the current uniform. A radical makeover (e.g. changing the colors) would have to come from the Boy Scout Committee. Jay L. Lenrow Chairman -- National Jewish Committee on Scouting Area 5 Metro President -- Northeast Region Member -- National Relationships Standing Committee Member -- National Religious Relationships Committee Past President -- Baltimore Area Council I used to be a Buffalo (NE IV-123) but I'll always be an Eagle (1966) Proud son of a Life Scout and proud father of an Eagle

I plan to camp in my Scout Shop's parking lot the night before delivery day :-) If the current prototype materializes, I will also buy the new green loops and the Troop numerals with the tan background and darker tan numbers so that I can retrofit some of my current six official Uniforms (especially my two cotton indoor shirts). Just to give the local Wood Badge Uniform Police some meaning in their lives I will have a custom version of our CSP made with a tan background and darker tan details to match the understated look of the new Uniform shirt. Kudu

I'm asking about the current program.

kadiera, Do you have online anything like a general overview model of your program (a "Methods of SpiralScouting")? For example, see: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Likewise do you have online the advancement specifics of exactly what is required to earn badges? For example, see: http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Kudu

eolesen, Nice put-down, but what do the relative merits of the new "One Minute Manager" Wood Badge versus the previous "Eleven Skills of Leadership" Wood Badge have to do with this discussion? They both sacrifice the Patrol Method to the Leadership Development Method. Let me make my recommendation simple: If you are considering Wood Badge because you want to learn more about the Patrol Method, then simply ask the course director (is he called the "Cubmaster" now in the 21st century?) who said "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose?" If he answers "Baden-Powell" then he has not studied the American version of the Patrol Method, and you are much better off reading the original source material yourself (the 1,132 page, two volume Third Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters). It is available at the following URL. To tell the Third Edition from all of the other editions look for a volume number in the description. http://tinyurl.com/38zo9r Kudu

Gonzo, Yes I was a training junkie too but I have cut back to the point where I only staff a few outdoor Council courses now. My point is simple enough: No matter how much BSA training you take you will never actually encounter the valid Scouting ideas to which the BSA pays lip service in passing unless you read the original BSA publication in which all of the workings and subtleties of the Patrol Method are fully explained: the 1,132 page, two volume Third Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. This is where Americans first encountered the authentic famous Scouting aphorisms: To the boys Scouting is a gameto you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training. and The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! "Kudu, Many of us would appreciate a return to the "old" ways, you, me, many others." The Patrol Method is timeless. There is, I believe, a widespread assumption that the volunteers and professionals who write the BSA training materials have sifted through the old BSA publications and made conscious decisions about which of the "old ways" are still valid and which of them are better replaced by some trendy corporate business theory. If that were true, then why do these authors always (and I do mean always) attribute the above two quotes (and a few others) to Baden-Powell? If anyone (and I do mean anyone) at BSA Headquarters was familiar with the Patrol Method these errors would not remain in print. So why should anyone take Wood Badge when they can go right to the source by reading the Third Edition? "I disagree with the notion of having PL's for life. 6 months minimum, maybe a year tops, but at the decision of the PLC." Not for life but for as long as they are the most gifted and productive leaders in the Troop. The idea that it is up to the PLC is a dodge because (as the older BSA publications point out) a Scoutmaster's duty is to provide input to the PLC. When my PLC talks about getting rid of a good Patrol Leader because someone else needs the POR credit for advancement, I ask them who in the Patrol is more responsible? I suspect that Scoutmasters who believe in "maybe a year tops" for Patrol Leaders influence their PLC in the same way as I do although they may not realize it because the Troop Method habit has already been established. The question I would ask Wood Badge types is what adult need does your conscious decision to discourage your very best Patrol Leaders fulfill? If the Troop that you serve was blessed with the most gifted Scoutmaster in your Council or state, would you ask him to step aside after only a year so that a less talented adult can learn leadership skills? How about your Committee Chairman? If he or she completely transformed your Troop by offering seemingly effortless financial and logistical support to each and every one of the PLC's wildest plans, would you ask him or her to step aside after only a year to give another mommy or daddy a chance to "learn how to be a leader"? If not, then why should Patrols be Leadership Development Skills Mills? Kudu

Gonzo1 writes: "remember, every scout deserves a trained leader." "What Makes You a Trained Leader? "Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills." http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-813/ acco40 writes: "Kudu - I'm confused. Overall, Woodbadge is a leadership course, not a New Leader Essentials type course." My point exactly. Wood Badge was hijacked. Real Wood Badge is all about the Patrol Method (not the Leadership Development Method) and the Patrol Method is all about the teaching and the practice of outdoor Scoutcraft skills in Patrols. This is how all of Boy Scouting is supposed to work. You learn Citizenship through Scoutcraft skills in a Patrol ("education"), not through classroom Merit Badges ("instruction"). Corporate leadership classroom training is the same as Citizenship classroom training: the very opposite of Scouting. For this indirect teaching of real-world Scout Law to work you need the Patrol's most gifted leader as Patrol Leader rather than using Patrols to teach "Leadership" out of a sense of fairness to weak Scouts who need POR credit, with the Troop SPLs, Troop ASPLs, Troop Guides, and Troop Instructors all taking up the Troop Method slack. "Some of your statements really confound me. Heck, look at the critters - patrol spirit was emphasized, not the fact that we were a part of Troop 1." A better term would be "Generic Unit Spirit." Wood Badge Patrol Spirit is just nostalgic fluff since it includes Cub Scout leaders and the unit is called a Den and a Crew on alternate days. "I did not come away with the impression that the "troop method" was pushed at Woodbadge." The Troop Method statements are an "aptitude" test. If robvio agrees with the statements then he will love Wood Badge. Likewise Wood Badge graduates tend to make those statements when they are discussing other subjects and are not consciously defending Wood Badge. "From what I remember (and I admit, I may be fuzzy on what I "learned" from Woodbadge vs. Leader Specific vs. Essentials vs. just reading the Scoutmasters Handbook)" Likewise. One of my future projects is to take a stopwatch to Scoutmaster Specific Training to see how many minutes are actually devoted to the Patrol Method. "1) I believe they "may" be held in six month increments (that is what our troop does) but not because of the POR requirement (after all, Star is four months) but because of school athletic "seasons", school band, and it gives a chance for the boys to remove an ineffective leader. " Well now isn't that a coincidence! :-) The Troop Method assumption here is that Patrols must have elections according to some Troop plan. A Patrol should have an election when the Patrol thinks it needs an election. Why should a Patrol wait six months to remove an ineffective leader unless POR requirements are a consideration? Why should a good Patrol Leader face elections (and the implied hint of term limits) according to a Troop schedule unless letting someone else have a chance at the POR credit is a consideration? We would not see Troop election schedules if Wood Badge was about building strong Patrols rather than using Patrols as convenient Leadership Skills Mills. "The methods (all of them) help us to reach the aims (all of them)." I went to Wood Badge hoping for an in-depth "why" discussion of the so-called "Eight Methods" (why not the original six?) and the so-called "Three Aims" (why not the original one?) but the Eight Methods were only mentioned in passing. "Experience shows that a ratio of approx. 8:1 is ideal for leadership. That goes for the work place, Scouts and anywhere else." Yes, Wood Badge is about the least common denominator: leadership theory for eight-person units which can be used in the work place, a Cub Scout Den, or anywhere else. "2) I would not say that main purpose of a patrol is to teach leadership but the experience of being a patrol leader can assist a Scout in gaining leadership capability." That is how it should be: a nice growth experience for a Patrol's most gifted natural leader. "3) Please, my employer seems to be clueless on most everything. When I took Woodbadge, I didn't inform my employer. " In most "Why should I take Wood Badge" discussions the fact that Wood Badge is a corporate leadership course is usually touted as a reason for attending. Some Wood Badge courses even offer a form letter that can be sent to your employer. "4) True, the SPL is the youth leader of the troop. However, I've always felt that the Patrol Leader is the most important position in Scouting." Me too, but my current SPL was having none of that :-/ "6) I agree but more so as the communication path..." When a Troop is really a "coming together of Patrols," then the "chain of command" is PLC -> SPL, with the SPL elected by the Patrol Leaders not by the Troop Method. "...except the ASPL should be "removed" from this path." I included ASPL as a good example of the Troop Method. Why should some kid appointed by the SPL be the Patrol Leaders' boss when the SPL is absent? "7) I have no idea where this came from. Since the buzz word for the BSA (which I can't stand) is traditional values, I have no idea where you came up with this." And there is Brent right on cue with his assertion of historical inevitability :-) If you want to spin this off to the Issues & Politics area, I would argue that the BSA's buzz term "traditional values" is the neoconservative "odd fellows" combination of a) right-wing Christian social policies (including a religious test for "good citizenship" -- DRP) and b) corporate values. This unholy alliance does not reflect Traditional Scouting values anymore than it reflects traditional Republican values. Traditional Scouting values are always taught indirectly through the learning and practice of outdoor Scoutcraft skills in a Patrol. The place for adults to learn that should be Wood Badge. "8) I would not ask him to step aside but I also would not want him to be patrol leader for eternity either." Well, why not? One single gifted boy leader can transform and continue to set the standard for an entire Troop. It is the positive side of peer-pressure. Wood Badge should be about learning how to recognize the most gifted natural leader, and helping him become even better. This is very different from the idea that everybody is a leader and leadership (read "management") can be taught through a system like Eleven Leadership Skills or that One Minute Manager stuff. "The BSA does teach that the troop is a coming together of patrols. It does teach that the patrol is the basic unit of the Boy Scouts. Now, I agree that many Scout leaders don't follow that but I don't think Woodbadge teaches the "troop method" in any way." Wood Badge is all about "Leadership Development" and Leadership Development is all about the Troop Method. The opposite of Leadership Development is Patrol Leader Training. By definition Patrol Leader Training is not relevant to the needs of the Troop Librarian or adult Den Leader. allangr1024 writes: "I took Woodbadge under the former syllabus. I did not see Woodbadge emphasizing anything like what Kudu is saying." Now by any chance would that have been before the learning and practice of a few outdoor Scoutcraft skills in a Patrol was completely dumbed-out of Wood Badge to accommodate the indoor leadership needs of Cub Scouts? Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

The following was posted to Scouts-L on Oct 7th by Jay Lenrow under the Subject heading "New Uniform - Update": Yesterday at the National Meetings in Irving, I had the opportunity to actually see the prototype of the new uniform. I can report that the colors have not changed. The shirt is still desert tan but it is made of a quick dry fabric. The epaulets have remained but the tabs for Boy Scouts will now be a muted green color. On the left sleeve, there is a bellows pocket with a flap where the position patch goes. The troop numerals have a tan background with darker tan numbers. I could not tell if the patch is held on by velcro or not. Each of the chest pockets is a bellows type pocket with velcro closures. The overall look was very understated which made the colorful CSP and OA flap look somewhat out of place. The pants are an update of the switchback pants. Each leg has a large bellows type pocket with velcro closures. It is hard to tell but because of the size of the pocket, the zipper for the leg bottoms appears to be at or below the knee. It was unclear whether this was the actual new uniform or a work in progress. It was explained to me that this change came from National Supply, which has the authority to tweak the current uniform. A radical makeover (e.g. changing the colors) would have to come from the Boy Scout Committee. Jay L. Lenrow Chairman -- National Jewish Committee on Scouting Area 5 Metro President -- Northeast Region Member -- National Relationships Standing Committee Member -- National Religious Relationships Committee Past President -- Baltimore Area Council I used to be a Buffalo (NE IV-123) but I'll always be an Eagle (1966) Proud son of a Life Scout and proud father of an Eagle What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Is Wood Badge Right For You? It depends on how you define "Troop"! To find the right course of action, simply consider the following eight "Troop Method" statements: 1) Troop Elections should be held in multiples of six months to correspond with six month "POR" advancement requirements. 2) The purpose of a Patrol is to teach "Leadership Development". 3) My employer will be impressed to find out that I have participated in a corporate leadership course on my own time. 4) The SPL, not the Patrol Leader, is the true leader in Scouting. 5) The teacher of Scoutcraft skills is the Troop Guide, not the Patrol Leader. 6) The "chain of command" is SM -> SPL -> ASPL -> PL. 7) New ideas are "modern" and therefore better than "old-fashioned" traditional ideas. 8) I get a lump in my throat and my eyes get all weepy at the following statement: "If the most talented Patrol Leader in the entire world were a member of the Troop that I serve, my duty would be to ask him to step aside to give someone else a turn because my job is to teach leadership." If you agree with the above eight statements, then you already approach Scouting with Wood Badge Logic. Wood Badge is just perfect for you, and it will be a valuable resource in subordinating the Patrol Method to whatever trendy Troop Method leadership theory is popular these days. On the other hand if you disagree with the above statements and if you define "Troop" as a meeting of Scout Patrols then you are probably a strong supporter of the Patrol Method. In that case if you like to read and if you have some self-discipline then your time would be better spent if you skipped Wood Badge and invested $30 for the two-volume 3rd Edition of the BSA's Handbook for Scoutmasters (or $5 for a copy of the 4th or 5th Edition). These three editions were written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the "father" of the BSA Patrol Method, see: http://tinyurl.com/38zo9r The 3rd Edition is 1,132 pages long. If you don't find at least one idea for your Troop on each and every one of the 1,132 pages, I will "buy the book back" from you! Kudu

"Any ... experiences with this sort of thing?" Yes. The only important question: "Is he the Troop's most gifted leader?" Does he inspire a) Patrol Leaders to take charge of their Patrols and the Troop's program without the prompting of adults, b) meetings to start and end on time with all participants leaving with the feeling that their time is well spent, and c) older Scouts to volunteer for community service even when they "don't need the hours for advancement"? If so, then at Scout meetings and outings he must speak and act in the Spirit of Scouting. Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918).

"Now, How do I know all this is true? Did these ashes really continue the trail from Brownsea island? Because another Scout told me... and A Scout is Trustworthy. You have a good night." Yeah, I have the same problem with ghost stories. In December we will stay at Camp Stonehaven and we will on Saturday night tour the haunted castle. The ruins of the old poured-cement building do look stunning in the moonlight especially when you forbid flashlights on the pilgrimage! The truth is that no historian ever references Baden-Powell saving any campfire ashes in his lifetime, let alone the ashes from the first Brownsea campout. Traditional UK Scouting officials who have dedicated their lives to preserving the traditions started by B-P report that this campfire practice is an American invention and that even now it is still not widely practiced in England. If you do look carefully you will see that most of the campfire pedigrees that date the Brownsea ashes at 1907 note that the ashes were actually taken from a campfire on the island at a much later date. My position is that the Scoutmaster should be the one Trustworthy person who does NOT lie when a Scout comes for the truth about ghosts, jackolops, snipe, the cheese moose, smoke-shifters, or Baden-Powell's ashes from the first Brownsea campout. On the other hand I hate to spoil the romance of fictional Scouting traditions. So I usually answer such questions with another question designed to train independent thought, such as "How would a person find out if this is really the same Crystal Lake where "Friday the 13th" was filmed?" It would be a moral cop-out for me to say "Well, if your Patrol Leader says that the rotting corpse of a Scout who fell through the ice still haunts this cabin, then it must be true because A Scout is Trustworthy." I would note that the Scouters and BSA Scouting professionals who believe that it is OK to lie about history are usually the same moral conservatives who insist on holding Scouts to a much higher standard :-/ Kudu

Gunny2862 writes: "Kudu, is your bolded text in the first paragraph copyrighted or anything?" No but if you are going to use it, I should polish it up a bit for you first. Point d is just Kudu humor. Gold Winger writes: "Okay, yeah, sure...How about 'no ones turned in their permission slips for the ski trip'?" I would put that in the "Help other people at all times" area of facilitating the Outdoor Method. Of course Scout Law also covers a lot of territory in delivering and receiving any Scouting message: A Scout is Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, and hopefully Cheerful. Kudu

CalicoPenn, I accept your challenge! Where did you hear that the three fingers of the Scout Sign stand for the Oath, Law, and Slogan? Is this some new BSA revision in the tradition of "1. Duty to God & County (and presumably cram Scout Law in there); 2. Duty to Others; 3. Duty to Self"? If we were "taught to use the Scout Sign as it was intended" by its inventor, Baden-Powell, it would stand for the three points of B-P's Scout Promise, which by the way are actually: 1) To do my duty to God, [and my country]. 2) To help other people at all times. 3) To obey the Scout Law. "Signs UP" indicates that what we are going to say furthers the Three Points. Kudu