Kahuna

Farragut is a beautiful spot and a facility just right for a jamboree, but all that dust! 1/2 inch of topsoil over rock and 35,000 pairs of boots wear off the grass in the first hour. I think we should think about the Parker Ranch over on the Big Island of Hawai'i. Perfect temperature, little rain in summer, trip of a lifetime.

I watched P & T and agree it would have very little influence on anybody trying to decide if the BSA was a good or a bad thing. They are satirical comedians and a lot of what they said and showed (the comment about Jews and the topless GS for instance) was purely that. I also agree they didn't make any real argument in a debunking sense. They just pointed out some truths - we do have a greater slant toward the Christian Right than 30 years ago, no one can deny the influence of the LDS Church on the BSA, and we do exclude gays for reasons that many don't understand - and made their jokes. I didn't think it was particularly funny, but I've never been a big fan of Penn & Teller. I did think the gay vs straight competition was kind of funny and certainly the revelation of the gay veteran ex-Scouter at the end was a bit of a surprise.

As one of the old farts who doesn't want anything too radical to happen , I've sort of ceased to care about square knots. Like many other things in scouting as well as the military, more is not necessarily better. As a Vigil Honor OA (lapsed) guy, I always thought the OA was losing something of its mystique by having too much sash-wearing and other paraphernalia. It was conceived to be somewhat like the Masonic orders (and, in fact ritually based to some extent on them). Yet, the OA serves a vital purpose in the lives of many teen Scouts, since it's the bond that keeps them in scouting. The fraternal aspects are less important than the social as far as they are concerned. I don't know that a knot for Vigil Honor would add anything to the honor of being a Vigil.

Again, I think you are right on, Eamonn. While it doesn't hurt to be aware of what's going on nationally in the BSA, it all comes down to what you do in your unit. If you train your youth and guide them to have a good program, you have done your bit in the world. There will always be plenty of folks who will be watching National or Chicago or Atlanta and I am sorry for the volunteers who have had to fight the battles, but for the most part there isn't much I can do about it. I can do something about Sea Scouting in Hawai'i. BTW, sorry you didn't like Disney. It's one of my favorite places.

Ben Stein must be one of the brightest people alive today. He understands politics, economics, law (he's a professor) and comedy. He even manages to make a few bucks doing TV commercials. I hadn't seen his commentary on Christmas, but I think he's right on.

Ronvo, I think you just about summed up all my feelings on the matter. Bravo!

Charles Whitman was an adult Eagle Scout and scout leader who shot and killed a bunch of people from the University tower at Austin about 40 years ago. He would certainly have been a candidate. I never heard it happened.

I agree that ScoutNut and Ronvo are making sense. Better than a confrontation, I would think. If the kid leaves the troop it would be worse for him.

I don't remember ever having had mine cleaned, but I would definitely go with a dry cleaner or Woolite and follow directions for sweaters and such.

Yeah, that would do it! Sell a couple of camps and you're home free.

The Honolulu Boy Choir has been around for about 30 years and has toured the world, bringing the spirit of Aloha in their blue aloha shirts, white trousers and bare feet. About 75 boys, ages 8-15, all racial and ethnic groups in the Islands. Great group, I usually try to see one of their Christmas concerts every year. They are having huge financial problems these days and are on the verge of extinction. They have always had a commitment to not charge dues to the boy members and have raised money thru donations and fundraisers. Apparently, they have, in recent years, hired a number of people to manage the group. The expenses of maintaining a professional staff is the main reason they are in trouble. There has also been a problem in finding income producing concerts and getting enough attendance. Sound familiar?

I don't know if Roy Williams has any Olympic skills, though. Or would BSA President Cushman be more the equivalent of the Chief Scout? We had a Chief Scout once in the BSA, whatever happened to that?

That's a good point, GS-CS. I hadn't considered that the Jewish telling of the stories would be different from the Christian point of view. When I read the Boys Life magazine I mentioned at the beginning of the thread I was amazed at how little actual scoutcraft was in it. I had a large collection of those magazines from when I was a Scout and used to flip through them sometimes. It's amazing how many good scouting ideas were in there. Green Bar Bill's column always had some good pointers for boy leaders. Seems the mag should concentrate on scoutcraft and leave the religious points for the churces to deal with. I doubt the staff of Boy's Life includes an interfaith religious editor.

Accost is defined as approaching someone in a challenging, aggressive way. There are at least three posts in the thread that refer to or imply it's okay to point out uniforming errors to members of other units. As far as I'm concerned, that's accosting. What I'm trying to point out here is that not everybody wants your advice, no matter how well-intentioned it is. Of course we would probably all prefer to see all Scouts properly uniformed, but it has never been that way and it never will. In the military (which is why I used that reference) it is the job of every officer and NCO to maintain uniforming standards. In scouting, it is the job of the unit. I just don't think it is appropriate, for other than health and safety reasons (or switchbacks as mentioned) to make unsolicited corrections to members of other units.

Self Defense? If you and I were mountain climbing and ended up hanging off a cliff on a single line which would break under both our weights would killing you be considered self defense in a court of law? LongHaul: I don't think that's the correct analogy. If you killed me in that situation, it would be murder, but if you cut my line it might be self defense. The correct analogy, I believe, is if you and I were in a car together and were crashed into by another car. The paramedics arrive with jaws of life and other equipment. Their triage exam reveals that it is impossible to save me, but possible to save you. In so doing, they would have to ensure that the wreckage was opened in such a way that I would undoubtedly die, but you would be freed and probably survive. The medics could proceed and would not be charged with killing me, as long as it met the "reasonable person" test.

No, sorry, I still haven't heard an argument I consider valid for pointing out uniform violations in units other than your own. If the leaders of that unit want to police uniforms, they can find out how to do it or they can ask for a uniform inspection. It just plain ain't polite to accost a Scout from another unit and tell him "what must be done." The BSA isn't the military. Pointing out switchback cuttings or kids playing mumblety peg with knives is different. Health and safety is a whole different thing than uniform violations. For one thing, I wouldn't where to start when I look at most units I see in public. For another, I might encounter a unit leader like myself who will tell you very quickly that your point of view is appreciated and thank you for your comment, but don't you really need to be somewhere else right now?

But, if it is a child from the moment of conception - or whatever point you believe it is - then, it is life from that point on. How can you make exception for a child of rape or a child of incest? The instances where the life of the mother is endangered can be justified on the basis of self defense, but the child is not to blame because it is the child of rape or incest. Doesn't it deserve to live as much as any other?

Kudu, like OGE I respect your devotion to scouting as B-P intended it. I've read and studied a lot about B-P and his ideas and conclude he would be most distressed at the current state of U.S. scouting. I would love nothing better than to see the BSA reform itself to come more in line with the "real" scouting program. Having said that, I can't see that a competitive organization would have a real chance in today's world. On another thread, I mentioned I felt that voting for a third party is throwing away your vote and influence, and I feel somewhat the same about this. Even if there were no issues about the use of the term "boy scouts," or uniform or badges or other legalities, I just don't see that there are enough people like yourself, who have both the insight into the original program and the dedication to delivering it to boys, as opposed to some on these forums who only want to destroy the BSA if they can't change it to suit their wishes. So many organizations today are having trouble surviving, not because of changing within but because of changing values in the population. I wonder how a new scouting organization would be able to attract the relatively small amount of financing needed if you remove the professional structure from the equation without professionals to go out and sell it. Although the BSA, in the beginning was spread by well-intentioned people in the community, I don't see that there is that ethic in society today. Very few community leaders of real vision, I guess.

I'm afraid there's no third option (or free lunch, either) . If you vote for Democrats, you vote against all you stand for, if you believe in the Reagan Republican values. Sad, but true. At one point, I got so fed up that I voted Libertarian in a national election. I was voting in Florida at the time. That was the one that almost put Al Gore in the White House. I realized I had thrown away a vote that could have turned the whole election and jeopardized my own security. What's the answer? We just have to get the message to the RNC and the elected pols that we've had enough. I think a lot of people are starting to do just that. Sooner or later, they will get the message.

GernB: The Libertarian Party is, sadly, not an alternative. I AM a libertarian and agree with most of the party platform. But if you vote for them, you throw away your vote. I used to think the Dems and Repubs would notice, but they only notice if they win or lose. The LP will never carry enough votes to make any significant difference. As to the comments of others about rights given up under post 9/11 policies: How can you possibly be upset about those lost rights and not the rights you have surrendered in the name of the war on drugs. Those losses are much more pervasive and a lot closer to home for most of us.

Back when I was a professional, in the seventies, I made 13,000.00 as a multiple man DE and had a car. Our SE made around $40,000.00. This was in a medium sized council. I was single and don't know how the married guys did it. In those days, everybody was a former Scout. However, those were the days of Boypower '76, the program that almost killed Scouting. There was a big push to make professionals more like business executives. It succeded, but it also cut the bonds between the profession and volunteers. It also had the effect of pushing up salaries. With the pressure and the long hours, fewer people were willing to do it for peanuts. Of course, any organization changes once it hires someone to run it. After that, it becomes a guy's livelihood. His job becomes to keep his job, get promoted and get more money. His objectives change. In my research about professional Scouters, I came across a story of a man in Tennessee in the twenties. He was a coach and was hired as SE. He worked at his coaching job until noon and went to the Scout office after that. During the Depression, he was willing to forgo a salary and lived on his earnings as a coach. In summer, he ran the council camp and the secretary came out weekly with papers for him to sign and decisions to make. You won't find professionals doing that now. Their priorities are professional (not as in professional Scouter, but a profession). Of course, the turnover at the DE level is horrendous. Doesn't bode well for the future.

I'm a real estate lawyer, with my own small land title company in Florida and Hawai'i. Retired USAF officer. Thirty years active and reserve. In past lives, I was a professional Scouter, a prosecutor, a Realtor, an office machine salesman and once, a pin-setter in a bowling alley. I also practiced family and criminal defense law for about five years way back when.

There never was a winter uniform, per se, as far as I know (other than short pants and shirts vs long). If you have pants with button fly and heavy material, they probably date from the early forties rather than fifties. If they have a jodphur design, with buttons on the leg designed to be covered by socks, they definitely predate 1948. Scouts wore that uniform from about the mid twenties. Uniforms from that period had removeable metal buttons. Before that, the uniform was modeled on the WWI Army uniform.

Scoutmaster, beyond doubt, was my favorite. SM of two different troops over the years and ASM of others. Those were my favorite jobs. However, my most favorite SM job was JLIT SM at Philmont. You got to work with some of the sharpest, most motivated Scouts in the country for two weeks at a time. It was a very memorable experience.

John-in-KC: You completely missed the point of my post. The question is, what values that we have in the U.S. set us apart as a Christian nation. My response was that the only way I could see to do that is by comparison to nations that aren't Christian. Japan thru WWII is very clear example. I'm not saying they valued human life, I'm saying they didn't. Before you refer to viewpoints as stinking crocks of excrement, you might want to be sure you understand what the viewpoint is.(This message has been edited by Kahuna)