Kahuna

Gonzo: Never underestimate the ability of a 12 year old boy or an overweight leader to untuck anything. To tell the truth, I never owned one of the regular shirts of that era. Mine were always the polyester/wool type, which were better up through the last set I bought 20 or so years ago. Since I was a kid, I have never worn a neckerchief except in connection with Woodbadge events. Since I'm now a Sea Scouter, none of these issues really bother much anymore. But those uniforms in the 1930's, those were some uniforms . . .

>>It is so funny that people talk about how great the pre-1981 uniform was but they forget that it was not the perfect uniform.

I'll have to take a look at that. There's no doubt that organizations like the BSA are taking a beating from the current trends in kids activities. Reading these old histories of Scouting makes me realize that, although kids and adults had to work a lot in the early 20th century, kids really had very little to do. Fortunately, there were a lot books for kids and the success of the "Boy Scouts Defeat The Whatevers" novels that were popular in the early years probably stems from that. Glad I'm not trying to collect all of those!

I'll have to take a look at that. There's no doubt that organizations like the BSA are taking a beating from the current trends in kids activities. Reading these old histories of Scouting makes me realize that, although kids and adults had to work a lot in the early 20th century, kids really had very little to do. Fortunately, there were a lot books for kids and the success of the "Boy Scouts Defeat The Whatevers" novels that were popular in the early years probably stems from that. Glad I'm not trying to collect all of those!

Still working on bios of professionals from the old days. One of the best sources I've found is council histories. Not every council has one and often they are old and long out of print. Has anyone come across a history of their council that has some good bio information on the old-time professionals? A really good example is The Saga Of Potato Canyon (Conquistador Council), by Minor S. Huffman. They sell it in the trading post at Philmont. He was the first director of Philmont Scout Ranch (post Philturn, etc) and had a fascination career. All inputs appreciated.

Finally found the bug and now the entire site should appear in all browsers.

BTW, I discovered after putting it up that some of the site displays in raw html when viewed in Firefox. I'm working on that.

I thought I would post a link to my website. It's purpose is to provide me with contacts that will help in my research about the professional scouters who started this whole business in the first place. I hope you historians will visit and possibly suggest it to people you know who will contact me. The site is Men of Schiff (no offense to the ladies of Schiff) and can be found at http://menofschiff.org/ Thanks, Win (Kahuna)

Wow, I didn't expect that kind of response. Thanks to all for your kindness. I do want to point out in response to a couple of posts that all the hurricanes took place while I was OUT of Florida, never when I was here, so even though I'm buying a generator I don't expect any trouble. In fact, especially since I'm buying a generator. Like carrying an umbrella ensures it won't rain. Anyway, beware, you'll know I'm lurking. BTW, I'm serving as Sea Scouting committee/Venturing in Central Florida Council and hoping to staff at the 2010 Jamboree.

I was just wondering, since I see that Bob White and Rooster7 have been resurrected. In honor of those auspicious events, I'm posting to just to say hello and let you guys know I still read the forum. I'm still not interested in resuming posting, other than in an event like this one. BTW, you will note I'm now back in Florida and no longer living in the islands. Fair winds and following seas to all.

There is in the law such a thing as a limited appearance, which means the attorney doesn't wish to become a part of a case or submit himself to the forum but simply to present some point of law or other piece of business. This is such an appearance. I couldn't help checking back into the forum, primarily to reassure myself that my original decision was the correct one. I am still of that opinion. Nothing, of course, is permanent and I may change my mind again sometime in the future. However, since I care a great deal about scouting and have great respect for almost every member of the forum (and non of the exceptions were involved in the discussion in question), I do wish to make this clarification. My departure was not caused by anything I perceived as a personal attack. The only thing that happened in the rulesmongering discussion was that I realized that many of the issues being raised and debated here were bringing down my feelings about scouting overall. On a daily basis in scouting, I do not need to be concerned about drops in membership, uniform police or rulesmongering (one of the great things about Sea Scouting is that nobody knows enough about us to critique us about much of anything). In my research about scouting history I don't have to be aware of what the volunteers are doing in Chicago or whether National will change its policy on gays or God. For the most part, I can just go on happily ignorant of all the deeper issues and the nit picky stuff. So, I feel that for the present I am happier not reading about the negative things, even though they are offset frequently by great stories of some happy scouting experience. I find my reading of the forum topics today has not changed that feeling. In any event, I'm sorry if anyone thought I was stomping off because of something that I saw as a personal attack. And again, good wishes for blessings and bliss to all.

Well, gang, I've concluded that I will be a much happier person if I avoid this forum in the future. There are some really nice people posting here and some worthwhile information, but the negatives just weigh me down too much. The last straw was Rulesmongering. It just reminded me how much nicer scouting used to be and isn't now. Fair winds and following seas.

I've been on rifle ranges many times without permission when they were not operating, but it's not the same thing (I was also a range safety officer at Camp Perry). If you can't see that, I can't explain it to you. Nobody ever got drowned on a waterfront beach as far as I'm aware. As I mentioned, there was nobody on the waterfront except us and the staff. I have walked onto "their" waterfronts many times without "their" and that's the only one I've ever been chased off of. I'm sure that Owasippe has a great safety record and I have never been to a Scout camp where there has been a waterfront fatality. There are times for rules and times to use common sense.

The programs are quite different, but there are places where they have done that successfully. We have talked about it with the Navy League people here and may yet work out something. Sea Cadets are a lot more military than Sea Scouts. They are into drill and spit and polish a lot more. They do look sharp in their uniforms and they know how to behave correctly. I don't know what they learn about seamanship. Here, they do projects aboard the Mighty Mo, as do Sea Scouts. My only advice is to have a really clear understanding with their leadership about when they are going to be Sea Scouts and when they are going to be Sea Cadets. Just make sure everybody is on the same page.

There will always be adults and older kids who think you have to have plenty of rules to make things run properly. I think Eamonn has hit the proper balance. I've always felt we should have as few rules as possible and enforce them with enlightenment. It is not the end of the world if a Scout travels out of uniform. Waterfront personnel are usually the worst offenders. Some years ago, we took our troop to Camp Owasippe. We had a wonderful experience and just loved all the staff we came into contact with. One exception. We went down to the waterfront to respond to a request for adult assistance at mile swim or something like that. No one was on the lakefront except the waterfront staff. We walked out on the beach to where the head honcho was and he immediately started throwing a fit because we hadn't posted buddy tags and asked for permission to enter "his" waterfront. I was, btw, a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor. We just left and never returned. He could manage "his" waterfront without our help. Our troop had very few ironclad rules and the scouts always knew they were important. In almost 20 years, we never had a safety problem.

Sea Scouts can wear any uniform they choose, but if they participate in national events, they must wear the standard whites or blues as shown in the Manual. Some of the regattas require them for units who want to compete in some events. Otherwise, you're on your own.

It's my guess that this is exactly what the BSA will eventually do. Obviously, the position of no atheists and gays will become more untenable as time goes on. I would also hope that the number of people who would pull their kids out of scouting because there are gays and atheists in it will drop. Leaving it in the hands of the CO would take the monkey off their back.

Good points, Eamonn. Bill Hillcourt used to say that sports for kids are scaled down: Little League diamonds are scaled down from adult ones; Pop Warner fields the same. Scouting, however, is a program created for boys and not scaled down from something else. Probably another way of saying what you said, but it demonstrates something unique about scouting.

The DE is just wrong. I'm speaking from experience. About 6 years ago, we had a young man actually earn and receive his Eagle when he was only registered as a Sea Scout and had not been a Boy Scout for some time. The DE doesn't understand Venturing. (What a shock )

The Heart Sutra would be regarded by many Buddhists as a sort of Nicene Creed. However, the only real principles that the Buddha taught as essential to enlightenment are: The Four Noble Truths Life means suffering Attachment (desire) is the source of suffering Cessation of suffering is attainable The Path to cessation of suffering The Eight Fold Path Right view Right intention Right speech Right action Right livelihood Right effort Right concentration (meditation and mindfulness

Beavah says: Workin' for change or makin' change by starting a union drive, going on strike, bein' a whistleblower, etc. might be a better choice... not just for oneself, but for one's fellow workers. I'm not suggesting we should do nothing, just that we have to remember the difference. I agree we should not have to leave the BSA because of our personal views, but they do have the right to protect their public image as they see fit.

A real shame. This is one of those cases where I would have suggested talking to the SE before taking any action. God and Country should definitely not be a troop activity, even if they all belonged to the same church. These guys need a lot of training and guidance.

Your DE should be flogged around the fleet. Although, Sea Scouts are part of Venturing, we are not "Sea Scout Venturing Crews." It is possible to have a Sea Scout Ship that's into scuba, marine biology, etc, and not follow the advancement plan or wear the uniform, but there would be no difference between that and a Venture Crew. Who decides? You do, along with the CO. The youth run the program, decide what uniforms to wear and (probably) whether to follow the advancement programs or not. I agree with the others who have said that the founders and the CO of the unit have to be able to tell the youth they are joining this kind of group or that kind.

Maybe I do not understand these religons well - but I am fairly certain that the Buddists do not promote recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe. Kahuna is this correct? Yes, essentially that is correct. Although I think all Buddhists would acknowledge that there is a universal intelligence of which all sentient beings are a part, it is not essential to being a Buddhist to believe that, nor is there any concept of a ruling and leading power in the universe. No heaven or hell, only karma which indicates that in future lives what goes around comes around.

Much like blacks sitting in the back of the bus and having different water fountains has changed. Well, a good example except to this extent: When blacks had to sit in the back of the bus and use separate water fountains, not to mention schools, it was a matter of law. They had no alternative other than to leave the state or the country, which was not an option for most. The BSA on the other hand is an organization which you can leave whenever you choose.