Kahuna

Kudu: Yeah, the "attack dog" factor was what I was really talking about with West. I know Robinson had thought monopoly from day one, but it was West who fought and litigated and kept on until Hearst and all the others gave up. He did lose on the Girl Scouts, though. They kept their name despite every effort. As to the patrol method, I see what you mean. I dragged out my copy of SM Handbook No. 1 and re-read how they talked about "grouping standards." I guess I had completely forgotten ever knowing that kind of craziness went on in the early days. Okay, guys, time for annual patrol reorganization, line up by height in front of the scale. Of course, everyone who understands the history of the BSA knows that GBB was the one who brought "the patrol method" to the BSA when he wrote the Handbook for Patrol Leaders. I guess I think of the patrol method as using patrols to make up troops. I just wonder if anybody else as early as 1911-1913 would have had that concept based on B-P's writings. At least B-P didn't have any "grouping standards." It's funny, given that Scouting in the U.S. as well as Britain was in part started by boys forming patrols on their own, that the boy leadership principle was so late in coming along.

>>if Robinson had not been able to turn Boyce's fledgling group into a rigid monopoly on Scouting in the United States, would any of the five rival national Scouting movements been based on Baden-Powell's Patrol System

Timing is everything in history. In the first decade of the 20th Century, urbanization was beginning to show its' effect on youth: juvenile delinquency was becoming a problem and increasing numbers of boys were less healthy than they had been when they lived on farms. Seton and Beard had already begun organizations to instill character and a love of the outdoors in boys. It was simply a thing of the times. Boys were also ready for some kind of organization that was theirs alone. Both Boyce and Hearst had some economic motives, but both were businessmen who understood that somebody would incorporate the organization and that probably the sooner the better. Boyce had no problem in giving away his corporation (along with a lot of his own money) to Robinson, Seton, Beard and the others who eventually became the backbone of the BSA. Hearst's organization was much more militaristic and not as much in line with B-P's vision. Of course, that vision was partially shaped by Beard's and Seton's organizations, so logically they would be more of his thinking. Boyce had obtained verbal permission from the British Scouts Association to use material from B-P's book, so long as it was for a nonprofit cause. Perhaps he felt that incorporating sooner rather than later would make it easier to publish a handbook in the US. Primarily, I think that, since scouts (based on Scouting for Boys) and other boys organizations were springing up all over, all these men: Boyce, Robinson, Seton, Beard and probably Hearst felt the time was ripe to organize. When West came on board, he and the others immediately began to seek congressional protection of the name, badges, uniforms, books and other attributes of Scouting. It took a few years to work its way through congress, as everything does, but if they hadn't started when they did, they could have lost a lot of momentum. I don't so much think of it as a rush as a motivation.

In London for the Royal Wedding in 1981, I stayed at B-P House and again in 1989, that time with a group of Scouts. It's certainly a good place to stay, they have private rooms, some even with baths. It's located very close to South Kensington Station and you can walk to Kensington Palace and the Victoria and Albert Museum, Royal Albert Hall, etc. Food is served thrice daily. Trying to keep British here. Not bad chow, really. Also in 1981, went went out to Gilwell. It's true there isn't a lot to see, really, but it's kind of hallowed ground. We met some great Scouts and Scouters there and met the Warden. Funny, I just came across a picture I took that day. We were in uniform and heading back to the tube station we passed a patrol of British Scouts. We said Hi, they said Hi and we went on a bit, then realized they had stopped and were excitedly conferring. So, we walked back to talk with them. They were under the leadership of 13 year old patrol leader and en route to do a requirement that they camp alone as a patrol. No adult, although the SM would check on them overnight. Cute little group those Brits. On the next trip, one of our own boys brought back several acorns which he planted and got one to grow. I don't know what ever happened to the Gilwell Oak he grew. BTW, if you go to Gilwell, be prepared for a different experience than a U.S. Scout camp. For one thing, the water in their swimming pool is green. I would say, worth the trip.

Personally, I lean toward a combination of Bob White's theories. ;)The small councils I know of in Florida and Hawai'i do not have a logical geographic reason to exist. Maui Council in Hawai'i is in the middle of a council that stretches from Hawai'i to the Marshall Islands. Economics plays a part in that one. Some estate endowed them apparently as long as they stay independent.

Pretty good list, David. Some of those books I haven't read, but will correct that soon. Some are on Amazon, the others will take some library diving. Thanks for posting that.

For $299, it should come with B-P's autograph and a personal momento from James E. West. I think I'll wait around until they start showing up on ebay and Amazon.

If they were all in one place, they'd make a law library look like a broom closet.

I wouldn't have any problem swearing allegiance to the Queen. Now, if Charles becomes King, that would be another story. I definitely would if he offered me a knighthood. Otherwise . . .

I'd put Bill Hillcourt's Baden-Powell, Two Lives of a Hero at the top. Others that come to mind in no particular order: William Murry, The History of the B.S.A.1937. Rowan's To Do My Best on James E. West already mentioned above. Tim Jeal, The Boy-Men. Michael Rosenthal, The Character Factory. 1986. Not very favorable or particularly reliable, but gives some interesting info and comparisons. J.S. Wilson, Scouting Round the World. An international perspective. I'm sure others will come to mind, but that's a start.

You're welcome and since I had dug the book out of my shelf, I went ahead and re-read it. It's still a great and funny book. Scouting is a lot different today, but a lot is the same.

David, yes borrowing is a lot different than stealing and I think Seton really wanted to be recognized as the (or at least a) Founder. Whatever B-P took from others, he certainly was the figure who made it all happen. I'll be looking forward to your book.

While they had a nice campus there and the museum was great and they had the visitors lodge there where you could stay overnight and Schiff was nearby, it was very hard to get to and certainly not central to the country. Irving is much less scenic, but easy to get to from a major hub airport. I think a lot of retired oldtimers still live in Basking Ridge and places like that around the old HQ.

Seton would probably qualify as whiny, yes. He also had this fantasy that B-P stole Scouting from his ideas. However, he's an interesting man. Almost never bathed, though. I visited his home in Taos when his wife, Julia, was alive and it reflected a very interesting pair of people. His museum at Philmont attracts a lot visitors, so he may be the best remembered of the three: West, Beard, Seton. I have an arrowhead made from a piece of glass that was alleged to have been made by Seton. It's with a large photo of him, so it has some authenticity, but no provenance.

Uncle Dan must have been very charismatic. I just read about a camporee in Dayton where he was guest of honor. Boys just followed him around all weekend. Sadly, he was apparently very whiny and jealous of his status among the other founding fathers. Guess everybody has human failings except, of course, me.

Rice E. Cochran, Be Prepared, Avon Books 1952

I won't offer an opinion on punishment, I think the subject was covered pretty well above. However, I will make the observation that in my troops, teaching boys NOT to spit EVER was always a priority. One of the most annoying male habits of all and very easy to control. We just called them on it every time and basically had no spitting. Must admit the chance to spit off a lighthouse would be mighty tempting to any boy!

I well remember. I still have my red emergency service armband. Never got to wear it, though.

"Quite often the "Emergency Authorities" don't want volunteer help" Another reason, I'm sure. Sixty years ago there were not as many well trained rescue people as today. EMTs can undoubtedly do a better job without interference. However, from what I read, the people filling sandbags on the levies in Iowa could use a lot of help and would be glad to have it. "This is the largest service project by boy scouts since World War II" I, along with most Americans I would guess, am totally unaware of the project. As skeptic points out, it ain't easy to get recognized.

Greetings all. As I continue doing historical research, I keep coming across examples of national and local service by Boy Scouts in time of emergencies. During WWI and WWII, Scouts collected scrap, grew victory gardens, spotted for airplanes, enforced blackouts, etc, etc. During hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and what have you, Scouts grabbed first aid kits and flashlights, went out with their troops and patrols to direct traffic, secure property, fill sandbags and who knows what all. Scouts were selected to form an honor guard for several dead presidents, Warren G. Harding was one such, and in the pictures of Roosevelt's funeral procession in 1945, Boy Scouts can be seen along the route at precise intervals, saluting the caisson. I suppose liability and parental protectiveness would preclude many of these activities today. How many Scout parents would let their precious little boy go out into a hurricane with a flashlight and first aid kit? However, one cannot help but conclude that these services made Scouts extremely visible and valuable to their community. I wonder if the current image of Scouting would be improved if we had continued to perform in this way on a national level.

Dave: Interesting, I don't remember reading that. In fact, I don't think I ever read the book. I'll have to dig one up. One thing about Bill was, he would not necessarily said the same thing in a book interview for the BSA as he would have said by the fire over a glass of Scotch.

I seem to recall from the book that originally the charter was given to the SM. I suppose changing that was one of West's dictates. That doesn't bother me as much as the lack of real democratic process in elections as you mention. At least it gives volunteers a reason to cultivate the COR. Sadly, there are no more GBBs around, nor are there ever likely to be again. That's one of the reasons I'm writing the book. People should be able to look back to a time when such men were in the program.

"he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for" I'd guess you're referring to the entrenchment of "rule by executives" which was his major accomplishment and indeed his major philosophy. It's interesting that Rowan mentions one of the few men who stood up to West was Green Bar Bill Hillcourt. I wish I had known that when he was alive. I'd love to have heard some of his observations. Actually, I don't recall him ever saying anything about West at all. Quite a bit about the administration of the times, however.

Scoutmaster 52, that's a really good book and one I've relied on heavily in my treatment of West. Always wondered why he wasn't regarded more reverentiallyin the BSA. Now I know. They were glad to be rid of him and didn't want a cult following. An anecdote I came across: at the the '37 Jambo, an older Eagle Scout came back to camp late after visiting family friends in Washington. He was escorted to West's tent, where the Chief removed the boy's Eagle badge. West said he had violated Scout Law Number One, which at the time stated a boy could be directed to hand over his Scout badge if he failed, when trusted on his honor, to do a given task. His task was to be with his troop as a boy leader and thus had failed. West called him in again at the end of the Jambo and questioned him, then returned the badge. Talk about micromanaging! Also "letter of the Law."

Shortridge, I can only wish you luck. Sometimes you find exactly what you need, sometimes you don't. There is a pretty good guide to Scouting research in general at http://westtexasscoutinghistory.net/research.html. Your best source is probably going to be old-timers. I would talk to the current Scout Exec and see what he knows. Sometimes they have files that have been handed down. Then I would ask him and others who the living oldtimers are and go see them. Oh yeah, and if you come across any good stories about old time professionals, please send me a PM, I'm researching those guys and won't poach on your history. PS I couldn't make that link work, but if you type it in your browser it will take you there.