johnmbowen

Here is an interesting alternative for you: http://www.hennessyhammock.com/ I have one of these and found that it is the most comfortable sleep that I have, including at home. However, it requires trees, and/or poles and guys. Note that they have Scout ones too. I also have regular tents, and for backpacking demand aluminum poles, free-standing tents that for two weigh less than 4.5 pounds. JB

All of the above are excellent suggestions, especially the Weminuche trip. If you hurry you could get reservations on the Durango to Silverton narrow guage railway and get off at Elk Park and hike around to Chicago Basin, a fantastic trip. 14ers in Colorado are lots of fun. If you wanted to knock off 14ers for your whole trip, here is a good website http://www.14ers.com/. I took my troop on 4-5 of these including Crestone Needle, and Gray's, which we did as a winter ski ascent. All are fun, though Crestone may require ropes, as it is a 5.1 or so. I would also suggest the Rawah

I agree with all, but again all this is usually covered (at least in my course), medical releases, to scenarios, to legal topics to responses for stomach pains to insect stings to anaphalaxis to plain broken bones, to Expedition Behavior that hopefully keeps it all from happening in a good Wilderness First Aid course. Don't just talk about it on the webpage, actively get out and find a course! Several good organizations from NOLS, to WEA, to ARC and others provide this very valuable course. If you take kids into the wilderness without it, in my opinion you are not only unprepared, but

Well, that remark resembles me too, I went into Scouts through the ICO program.

Hey Folks All these questions and answers are addressed in a good Wilderness First Aid Class (or better a Wilderness First Responder course). FIND ONE AND ENROLL! The Sierra Club (y'know - the tree huggers that y'all look down on) require WFA as a MINIMUM for their outings leaders who take out primarily adults! What do we do? We require our leaders to take an hour long class on how not to abuse children - and then we take them into the wilderness! JB

Actually, my definition of venturing that could include the more cerebral types (though not video gaming), would be an outing or similar that is Self Propelled, Self Supported, and one that promotes a kid's ability to make that kind of outing themselves for the rest of their lives. The best illustration is instead of hiring an outfitter to take you whitewater rafting, LEARN THE SKILL AND DO YOUR OWN TRIP AND HAVE THE SCOUTS THEMSELVES RUN THE BOATS AND TRIP (eventually - as this takes time and training). It has always worked for me (and yes I do teach this type of trip). It is extre

Hi Folks It is not so much physical fitness that is required for a good high adventure program, but the experience of doing high adventure well, the expertise in at least one type of outdoor activity, planning expeditions, the willingness to learn more, and training the Scouts involved how to operate on the trip that count more. If you are slow, simply be sure that you are the "sweep" and have your well trained and experienced youth or assistants at the "lead". Wisdom and good training in mountaineering, is when the leaders know when to turn around and go down for the sake of the g

Brent As a WFA instructor, and a professional outdoorsman for some 10 years, and with some 30 years outdoor leadership experience, and as one trying hard to promote outdoor skills to BSA and Venture, I have mixed feelings about it. I read through some of the old posts, especially one comparing safety records between BSA and Outward Bound....an apples vs oranges comparison. By far most of the outings run by BSA involve camping next to cars, in BSA summer camps, fewer backpacks, little rock climbing, very little caving, practically no mountaineering, practically no self supported (ie

Well, this may be a few months late, but I feel I need to put in my 2 cents on this. Before you become all smug and self rightous in your armchairs, remember that for every high altitude climber that is injured and has to be rescued, there are thousands of fatalities of low risker non adreniline types that are killed and maimed every month on the nation's highways, including children. The cost of rescuing them is never thought of in forums like this. Also remember that of all the other people who are rescued or need help in the wilderness a good number are Scouts or Scouters who

If you are in the North Rockies, try High Plains Outdoor. They teach Scouts to run whitewater rafts, and have a course in climbing and mountaineering.

I find this to be a very interesting subject, and with well thought out replys. However, being a mountaineer, among other things, myself, I have a somewhat different view. The use of these PLBs is something that people who are pushing the evelope on an adventure probably ought to have. If there is a significant risk of becoming the subject of a hazardous search and rescue, as in high altitude mountaineering, canyoning, sea kayaking on the sea (not a smaller lake), or to a far lesser extent, multi-day white water rafting, then take one along. For most Scout outings, training, well plann

I think that the pros for climbing far outweigh the cons. Sure, climbing equipment is expensive. For the two Crews that I work with, we have a pool of Crew equipment, including helmets and harnesses, and as we have a few climbers to help also a pool of private equipment which we use when we go to real climbing areas. I feel these are superior to any indoor gym, and usually as they are state or federally owned - well that means it is YOUR land. Now before you book types get all excited, remember that the stringent rules BSA has apply to established climbing towers and generally for BS

The easy answer is to simply bring along a good strainer, and strain out all the food particles from the dishwater, put them in the trash and dispose of the water on the ground surface. This is the industry standard on Western American Rivers, and will work fine for commisary type cooking and dishwashing. JB

The real problem with the bad publicity in the press, and with most every outdoorsman against BSA outfits in the wilderness is that in general the Adult Leaders spend little time training the Scouts in appropriate behavior in the wilderness. This necessary subject is what we call "Expedition Behavior." The problem is with the Adult Scouters in that most are woefully unprepared themselves for the wilderness, so how can they teach the subject? Most even lack appropriate Wilderness First Aid skills, something that everyone who leads anyone into the outdoors should have. They also lack the mos

Thanks for the responses! Scoutingagain!...well I havn't found but that one group, but my Troop/Crew does take on other groups. My "day job" keeps me in OK for the fall and spring, and I've tried to subvert (well, they wern't hard) a Crew there who are coming with us on Deso Gray (Green River 82 miles) at a relative cost with gas of about $300/person - cheaper from WY where my summer job is. Anyway, it is more common for us to work with other groups...so, you got an idea for a trip? Beavah - what is the L-list??? and Mike, where and when is the HA Ralley?? These all seem like

I have two separate questions for you: 1. I've been looking for years for other units that run their own self supported - non commercial adventure trips and more especially the technical trips. OK, we're lucky to have the expertise and experience to run our own whitewater rafting, climbing/mountaineering, caving and of course backpacking programs, but who else does these or other really cool trips? I found one in WA that does high altitude mountaineering too so I know you've got to be out there! OK, I and some Scouter friends are also adventure outfitters and teach customers all

We run our own whitewater rafts in the Rockies, training our guys from 14 on or whenever they get big enough to handle the oars or paddles. We usually start them on the mild Upper Colorado(Colorado River Headwaters), but the ones they really like are the North Platte, Northgate Canyon, and Westwater Canyon (don't tell the Rangers you are Scouts - they tell you that you cant canoe it - duh!). However, the best the guys like are long trips, such as Desolation and Grays Canyon, the 82 mile run on the Green River. Its not but Class III+ at high water (this year!) but it makes up for it wit

Ah, havn't looked at this site for a few months, but thought that I would add our trip. My Crew 136, Laramie, WY is hosting a Troop/Crew from OK (T/C 77) on a joint outing to do Desolation and Gray's Canyon on the Green River - the whole 82 miles. T/C 136 members are taught all the skills necessary to run their own whitewater rafts, as will T/C 77 when they arrive. This will be a self guided - self supported trip. We adults after a couple of days of coaching will have the Scouts to run the entire trip (under observation of course). Hope to make a good video of the trip and

Here is the URL for the NRS Storm Boot, which is a neoprene/combat style boot. http://nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2339&deptid=1169 As a whitewater outfitter, I recommended these to a Northern Tier "Guide" who used them all summer and absoltuely swears by them. They provide all the support, have soles that are designed to be non-slippery in the water and as his feet were wet most of the time they kept his feet warm and he could take them off when in camp. I use mine in big or cold water when rescue might be needed, and have always been impressed. NRS says that the Seal

Old Grey Eagle is correct that what may be high adventure to one is just a fun trip to another. My tastes and training go toward the higher end trips Here is a video of our trip this summer: http://homepage.mac.com/johnmbowen/ movie 2005 136 Westwater. Since my crew and troop are used to this kind of outing, they are a bit jaded for mere campouts. One thing to note is that my ASMs and I are also professional boatmen and are all highly trained in these activities, have current Wilderness First Aid etc. But this is NOT a "don't try this at home" message. You can do

WE WENT RAFTING WITH OUR OWN BOATS TRIP REPORT SEE THE VIDEO (ok, so it is an amateur production) please go to: http://homepage.mac.com/johnmbowen/ and look at the movie 2005 136 Westwater. This summer my Troop and Crew 136 did a whitewater trip to Westwater Canyon, using our own boats, boatmen and crew. We opened it to some fathers and aunts as well (no moms this time) as well as some adult kayakers for safety. This was a high water year in the Rockies and since we had some new kids that had to be trained, and lost several of our older ones to summer jobs, we had only

This summer my Troop and Crew 136 did a whitewater trip to Westwater Canyon, using our own boats, boatmen and crew. We opened it to some fathers and aunts as well (no moms this time) as well as some adult kayakers for safety. This was a high water year in the Rockies and since we had some new kids that had to be trained, and lost several of our older ones to summer jobs, we had only one Scout to run his own boat. We did start the summer with a new SM, only to have him have to resign when he finished graduate school! Prior to the Westwater trip we did training on the Cache Le Po

I am a bit late to add 2 cents to this posting, however, I am a Scout leader who is also a whitewater professional. This is a clear case of an adult leader who may have had lots of Scouting or Military experience, but little river experience, which was needed in this situation. The dam shown in the newspaper picture is a low water dam, widely known by whitewater boaters and those with swiftwater rescue experience to be a killer. There were no breaks in the dam, which would allow boats to freely go through. The dam creates a powerful symmetric cylindrical hydraulic with a massive backwash w

Well, I didn't get into this thread till it was mostly all over, however, it is one of the things that I have always been concerned about with scouting. There is a huge overemphasis in protecting boys from pedophiles, which is sometimes necessary, but rather rare. It stems from the problem that the main office listens too much to the hard core relegious right. Of more concern is the fact that every active Troop of Crew takes out kids into the outdoors on trips at least once a month, as asked for. Most of these folks stay within their experience envelopes, and provide their kids with rather tri

Well, I didn't get into this thread till it was mostly all over, however, it is one of the things that I have always been concerned about with scouting. There is a huge overemphasis in protecting boys from pedophiles, which is sometimes necessary, but rather rare. It stems from the problem that the main office listens too much to the hard core relegious right. Of more concern is the fact that every active Troop of Crew takes out kids into the outdoors on trips at least once a month, as asked for. Most of these folks stay within their experience envelopes, and provide their kids with rather