John-in-KC

My contract with my attorney during some regrettable business a decade back? A handshake. A gentleman's word should be his bond. His handshake should stand for something. The time for that starts when a young man is a Boy Scout. Enough said. My $0.02

Much depends on the age group, as Scoutfish just noted. For the Cub Scout, the protestant religious emblem curriculum is "GOD IS FUN: NEXT!" ... if you take it down to its raw theology. A Cub is only going to take 5 minutes or so of sitting still (trust me, we don't get much more out of them inside a church either). 5 minutes is time for a song ... like God's love is a Bubblin' over, and time to say "God is great". A Webelo, taking God and Family, gets a little more out of his curriculum, but it's still "God is FUN! NEXT!" It's designed for short attention span. By this time, I want to teach a table grace that actually matters ... Philmont, Johnny Appleseed, variant on the Doxology. When you get to Boy Scouts, you're starting to develop serious intellectual underpinnings to faith. This is the area I speak of here. I want Councils and Districts, not to mention OA Lodges, to have more than one something, that actually addresses the matters of faith for youth. I can live with somewhat big families, but you have to find a way to deal with the one-off, such as LIBob and the Tao. Here, my answer is let him have time away from others. Heck, there are days in the wild where I want time away from others, to pray in His peace. When you get to Venturing, well, they are at the stage where they are challenging their faith, and I want staff and chaplains who can help them go 1 on 1 with God as they figure out where their faith lives will be. I believe faith is first and foremost a function of FAMILY. Scoutings role is not to be a purveyor, but rather to reinforce. What is published as "Scouts' Own" is a detriment, not an aid. That includes the garbage of pablum inside the WB curriculum.

One addendum: The Christians' neighbor is to the weak, the poor, the needy, the oppressed ... but in giving service to them, the Christian is not doing it for salvation: That's a done deal (Eph 2: 8-10), rather, the works are those set for us to do by the Holy Spirit because of salvation. Further, we are not to put our lamp under a bushel (see the sermon on the mount in Matt 5), but to proclaim the good news even in our service. Christians welcome all in the door, but you are going to hear the message of Grace while you are inside our door. I would rather see the Scout take his camp chair out a few hundred feet from the center of the tenting area, open a songbook or a testament or ... and spend 15 minutes thinking about the glory God gives so freely. That to me is infinitely better than the Scouts' Own that has been published by National.(This message has been edited by john-in-kc)

Today's Dilbert moment on ScoutNet: Talked to a staffer at my Council yesterday. She pulled me up on ScoutNet. Wood Badge and BSA Lifeguard are not going to show up as training: They are AWARDS. Sigh.

Here is "love thy neighbor as thyself" in full context: Mark 12: 28-34 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. Here is The Parable of the Good Samaritan in full context from Luke 10: 25-37 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." The role of the Christian is to proclaim the truth in love. The truth is Christ is the salvation. Christianity is not a tolerant religion. If you want complete openness and tolerance, go to Unity or Unitarianism. Now, am I to judge you? NO. I am to proclaim, but you have choice. If you choose not to follow, well, you are trusting your works will get you to Heaven. I don't trust my works, I know how much I fail. i rely on the all-encompassing sacrifice of God Himself, through Christ on the Cross, and His resurrection and return. I go back to what Pastor Gross, one of the Philmont Chaplains, taught me at PTC 7 years ago: As a Pastor, bound unto the Lord to proclaim the Good News, he opened his service/reflection times with a survey of the folks in chapel: If all said they were of Christianity, he went with an overtly Christian worship service. If anyone said they were of another community, he dumped all prayer and all hymnody, and went to a class on morality and the absolutes morality driven by faith demand. This came about after I had seen a worship service at a Scout Reservation where the Chaplain tried to be all things to all people. He mixed OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita (sp?), and assorted other sacred documents trying to claim that God is the same everywhere. It's just not so. My personal opinion is that Scout Reservations, Council and District events should strive to give faith communities access to their own faiths. Absent that, chapel time should be a time of quiet reflection by adult and youth, contemplating the goodness of the Lord, in however you worship him. Non-sectarian does not mean blended.

I grew up at Camp Whitsett (once the San Fernando Valley Council's camp, now Western LA Council), on 3 different backpacking trails, and one trip to Camp Mataguay. As a youth, unit cooking was universally practiced. I like it; it taught me how to boil water, cook burgers, make spaghetti, and on and on... There are places for food service support: Council operated Cub camps come to mind. Even then, though, doing a cold sandwich lunch would teach kids something. I wish more camps offered cooking in units: It'd solve much of the actual cooking needed to be done for Cooking MB, and I've long been a fan of returning that to the Eagle required list!

Terry, Thank you for all you do for Scouting by hosting this site for us.

Kahuna, You've said much of value in your last post. I'd far rather each Scout come with a prayer book/pocket testament (or equivalent) and spend 15 minutes reading about his God in the silence of the forest, rather than suffer another "Scout Law as Theology" Scouts Own as is published by the National Council (I found a couple out on the OA Lodge Leadership Development Conference website, and I took ill reading them). As I read Scoutings materials, I'm reminded there is a reason Chaplaincy is left to adults, and youth members are to be Aides in the PORs: Their faith is still forming. Our duty as Scouters is to provide an environment which supports the family in its decisions of how faith will work itself out. For those of you who've been to Philmont or PTC, and who know Pastor Gordon Gross, he's the clergyman who has helped me gel my views on matters of faith these past 8 years or so.

Bando nails my position. The Scouts' Own as published by the National Council is ANATHEMA My vote is NAY! Thus says the Lord. All quotes are from the New International Version, found online at www.biblegateway.com: Exodus 20:1-6 And God spoke all these words: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before [a] me. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. John 14:5-14 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. Exodus 34:10-14 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Deuteronomy 6:13-19 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the LORD's sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the LORD promised on oath to your forefathers, thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the LORD said. Revelation 3:14-22 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Luke 9:18-27 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Christ of God." Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." I trust the Word to make my case. I've no problem with protestant Christians gathering together as one family, and I have no problem with protestants and Catholics (in most cases) gathering together, as long as the priest doesn't offer a closed Mass (meaning Roman only). AS A SCOUTER... I have no problems with assorted other faith families going off and worshipping as their way is. I'll sit at the campfire with you, share with you, learn about your faith from you (as I hope you will learn from me). I will even come to your worship service (as I take kids in God and Church to see a service in synagogue) as long as I am in learning mode, vice worshipping mode. Just do not ask me to worship with you. My God draws a very bright line at that limit. Many of you have seen me say this before. There's nothing new in my position, but I wanted to espouse it clearly. Peace be with you.

The one website rule of Scouting you need to remember is no photography of kids with full names. Don't give a pedophile or a kidnapper a target. That's probably my one direct concern ... giving those who'd attack our kids a target. That said, SR540beaver and I run the Scouter dot com facebook group. Several of us have gotten to be friends over there, where we can talk about our lives and ourselves away from Forum rules here. You're welcome to join...

The plate has been passed in the chapels of my Council Scout Camps for at least the past decade. When I go to Philmont, the plate is passed both in chapel at PTC and in chapel at backcountry HQ Giving your time, talents and treasure is a given in every faith community I know(This message has been edited by John-in-kc)

Bob, As a Scouter, I don't think I have any issue. From what I've read, Taoism is a faith grouping. As far as religious emblems go, IIRC there have to be a minimum number of units chartered nationally for the National Council Religious Relationships Committee to authorize recognition of an emblem. OGE: Scouts Own services that try to be generic God are offensive to Jew, Christian, and Muslim alike. As I recall, the Christ said: I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. I'll let it rest there, though, we've had that debate elsewhere on this Forum, and our OP had a specific Scouting question. Bob, I hope you understand that while I disagree with the theology, I believe you want to raise a good young man on the Scouting trail.

Recognition is the method in Venturing. That gives a Crew latitude to use the BSA system, letters at school, or whatever they choose

I've been working my "lifelong" ticket since my beading in 2007. There is a point to this, and I hope Secret DE is out there observing: part of mandatory training is getting the data input. To me, adult training records are now as important for input to ScoutNet as some erit badge for a 14 year old...

Do you have a friend, a Pastor, who enjoys shooting sports? The stumbling block I see is "You shall not murder." Given where society is these days (and the incident today in New Mexico did not help your cause), the hurdle I see you having to overcome is absolute Pacificsm as a practical belief system. Re-read Beavah's advice very closely. He's got a good sight picture (pun intended) on this one Have you thought through your guidance to the SM, CC, and SPL if the church leadership does not pull back? You are the one who is going to have to be the heavy...

This is recent, as in posted today. It's a gentleman, posting about his sister, who travelled Amtrak in coach from Lamy NM to Fullerton CA. This means this Troop/Crew was westbound after a trek Friday or Saturday... She said there were a lot of rowdy boy scouts on the train. So looks like the camp near Raton is still catering to the boy scouts. I think folks should realize that rowdy is not a word most common carrier passengers want to hear about any neighbors during their trip, let alone Scouts.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

So where in the #### is my Wood Badge and my BSA Lifeguard? Even if expired, I paid hard cash for BSA LG (in addition to time in the water...)

So where in the #### is my Wood Badge and my BSA Lifeguard? Even if expired, I paid hard cash for BSA LG (in addition to time in the water...)

Why is this thread still in the advancement forum? It's about wearing the Eagle patch, not about earning Eagle...

Lots of good advice here. First, there is no requirement in the BSA rank advancement system for Scouts to have a working knowledge of firearms safety and use. If your church makes the ban permanent, I do not think you will have wiggle room. I think Beavah's comments about the presentation are spot on. I think you should talk, especially at Scout Camp, about the qualifications and standards for the Council to open a range. I also think it would be a very good idea for a faith-friendly, shooting-sports friendly, Commissioner to go into this session with you. If you can find an area Pastor who is also a Scouter and someone who enjoys shooting sports, he's another good guy to have along. Let us know how this turns out.

Why start a Crew directly tied off to a Troop? Do the interest inventories and start a Crew that has a common interest they want to explore deeper. I suspect you will find Boy Scouts who will want to join. I'm pretty sure you will find other young men and women who want to join as well. I wish you success.

Gary, That's a crock of excrement, and you know it. We have women youth members of camp staffs because Councils cannot find enough young men. So, there's a Council-wide organization of young men in almost every one of our Councils. Why is it not doing some cheerful service and being the honor camping society it should be, and getting off its leaden fourth point of contact and helping the Camp Director find qualified and altruistic young men? Oh, yeah, that's why: You say it's not a mission of the Order. As a collateral to this debate, you'd best not hope that Boy Scouting becomes co-educational, either at the Council level (gender-specific Troops) or at the unit level, as we are discussing in a thread in Open Discussion, Program. If that day comes the first young woman who is denied an Ordeal will have a discrimination lawsuit against the National Committee of the Order of the Arrow. Her parents will be very rich, and the Order will be under Court supervision for years to come... I've said my piece, and I shall no longer post in this thread. It's blatantly obvious there are Brothers who cannot or will not think outside the box.

sherminator... Since I was elected as a youth member... OK, let's crosswalk the Venturing Oath and Code to the Boy Scout Oath and Law: As a Venturer, I promise to do my duty to God and help strengthen America, to help others, and to seek truth, fairness, and adventure in our world. Venturing Code As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people. I will, therefore, be faithful in my religious duties and will maintain a personal sense of honor in my own life. I will treasure my American heritage and will do all I can to preserve and enrich it. I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life.; I will acquire the Venturing attitude that seeks truth in all things and adventure on the frontiers of our changing world. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/venturing/oathcode.asp I promise to do my duty to God and help strengthen America, One my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country Yep, they match to help others, and to seek truth, fairness, to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, Truth and fairness: That's a pretty good distillation of trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, and clean (reverent was tagged above)... and adventure in our world. and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight Gee, those are covered in truth and fairness as well and as for physically strong, I think that's covered in Adventure. Adventure: Something not in the Scout Law ... a sense of willing discovery! BTW, those who continue to object need to go back and read the 1965 edition of the OA Handbook. On pages 16 and 17 the OAHB discusses the policies for Boy Scout Troops and Explorer Posts. So, imnsho, the argument about the Oath and Law is a red herring. We have more years of having elections in the older youth division of Scouting than we do not having them! Again, this can be solved quickly: Lodges need to step up to the plate, and recruit to fill all camp staff positions with Arrowmen. Then, there is not need for Venturing women to serve our Councils as seasonal staff. When the boys are pulling the full load, and young ladies are not doing cheerful service greater than what 10 unit only Scouts are doing, the argument is moot.

I will have to check on age eligibility. The tougher pole is that they must join Troops, not Crews, as ASMs.

In order for me to do anything about this, I think I'd need the backbone of a stronger unit and a stronger CO. And those are things I just don't have. That's a significant signal to me; it's time to thank your Troop for its services to you and your family, and find a new Troop. Being able to say the courage of our convictions matters, especially when it's the SM and CC, who are supposed to be examples to the youth members.