John-in-KC

I agree with E92, to a point There is one other legitimate reason for placing a minimum age on a program: SCARCE RESOURCES! If there is a non-profit in the US with infinite resources, please tell me. I have not found it yet Lakefronts cost money...lots of money. I do not know of many which can support all the campers in a season. If the Scouts themselves are unwilling to self-select a limit, then some limiting factor has to govern. Whether it be a lottery, MBs earned, rank or age, you cannot train more than your capacity. Reality bites sometimes...

I wonder where this SM was six months ago, at the beginning of tenure. Was there a SM Conference, to discuss responsibilities? Was the Committe Secretary appointed to provide content from the Commttee? Was any adult given rsponsibility for adult assocation and support? How many times did the SPL/ASPL provide oversight? Were the Patrols charged with creating content? What about the Scribe? Removal is a last resort, and I would hope the SM was courteous enough to have alerted the parents in advance. I'm sorry I have more questions than thoughts, but this removal has too many questions needing to be asked

Mike, I'd far rather see a high quality partial than have to award a MB because it was "complete." It does mean the SM knows what is going on in the Lodges, though

Sorry I've not been able to respond during the day. First, someone mentioned their Scout Reservation allowed under 18 staff to sign out Merit Badges. Those apps are on their face invalid. Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 says clearly that a Counselor must be 18 years old, and makes no exceptions for seasonal camp staffs. That calls for a businesslike talk with the SM and COR confronting the District Advancement Chair. Now, Mr or Mrs Scoutmaster: Your charges are minor children. You are their voice as the customer of services given by your Council. Your Scouts and their parents are paying darn good money for events your PLC decides to attend. If something is not right, your duty is to speak up. Don't wait for the end of camp. Speak up at once. I trust each of you are walking to the Lodges starting Day 1 of camp. You should be looking at how each Lodge is run. Are your Scouts at the picnic table, sleeping, while a 16 year old is droning? Have a quiet word with the Lodge director. Are they being taught something patently wrong? Seek out the PD and ask what is going on... Start low. Your campsite commissioner is indeed the go-between between you, the unit serving volunteer, and the volunteers, seasonal staff, and professionals of your Scout Camp. If you perceive the feedback you are offering (it is a gift, after all) is not being accepted, evaluated, and worked, elevate the issue. The leadership chain in the program side of a Scout Camp runs from the J-Staffer to his Lodge Director to the Program Director to the Camp or Reservation Director. The Council has taken these kids money; you have the right to insist on a quality service rendered. Remember: You are the one who signs the merit badge application, authorizing the Scout to begin the badge. You are putting your name down saying "The Camp Staff meets my approval as a group of Counselors, you may work with them." To be honest, you have more control over a camp staff than you do over Mr Smith back in town. You are trusting Mr Smith to mentor and evaluate properly. You get to have eyeballs on the work of a Camp Staff. Do not let things get out of hand. If you believe the Scout is not being taught the skills you need the camp to teach him, pull the Scout out. I would ask that when you do that, you do have a talk with the Reservation Director and state your reasons why. You want to do this before the testing is finished. I've been an aquatics commissioner at my Scout Reservation; I can tell you when the J-Staff sits down with the Director and talks about each Scout. If the quality of the program is such that you do pull a Scout from a class, let him have some other fun. The ranges are always popular. You don't have things a Scout can learn in camp? I know a lot of Scouts who'd love to get better at chess. Now comes the tough part. When you, Mr or Mrs Scoutmaster make a tough call, it's time to keep others in the loop. Your committee chair needs to know in real time. Your COR needs to know in real time. You are going to be asking your COR to go out and do the tough part of his job ... represent the interest of the Chartered Partner as a voter in the Council. Trust me, Council Presidents (volunteers like us) make time to visit with Chartered Partners ... they're generally successful businesspeople, and they understand that a squeaking wheel needs to be greased, or it will continue to make noise. Trust me, if a COR tells the SE that Troop NNN is taking their money someplace else next year, the SE sees those dollar signs, and he's not going to like that. A good SE will seek out that feedback, and he'll do something about it. The point is this: Whether you call the Scoutmaster the guardian, the gatekeeper, or the consumer, he is the one who speaks for the young people. If you don't say something, change will never happen. I hope this answers questions. Shortridge, thanks for your comments earlier today, I think you knew where I was going

The way to raise standards is to have your COR tell the Council President why Troop NNN will not attend the local Council Camp next summer. The way to raise standards is for Scoutmasters to get up their moral courage and have frank discussions with camp management during the session about inadequate quality. The way to raise standards is to withdraw Scouts from classes before the Lodge Director/AD/MB Counselor signs out the merit badge. This last includes having the backbone to tell parents, your CC/COR, and unit commissioner about sub-par instruction. Simply withholding the completed badge from the Scout is churlish. Barry (Eagledad) says it a little different than I: The Scoutmaster is the keeper of the program flame.

Den Chiefs, Den Chiefs, Den Chiefs. Start no later than the Bear Year for Packs in your area. Get boys out to be Big Brothers to those Cubs. Dedicate an ASM to the DC care and feeding, as well as listening to the Packs for their support needs. It's like this: The Packs need your boys and your support: Your Troop needs the seed corn the Packs provide. BTW, I agree with Nike, mn_scout, and desertrat too...

How your Pack allocates its share of the profits from your Council popcorn sale is a matter for the Pack Committee. I do not think it unreasonable for the Committee to decide that for every dollar profit brought in by a Cub, 25 cents can be allocated by the Pack to reduce his fees for Scout Camp. The actual number is variable; these are just my thoughts.

I have to second what Eamonn said: Be there for your Patrol ... especially between the two instructional weekends. Even with a crew of experienced Scouters, there are questions which come up. I was grateful for my TG: He made the point very clear before we broke away from weekend 1: For the next month, I am Troop 1 for you. If you ask a question, individually or collectively, I will get you an answer.

Let me be blunt. You are too late. You signed the application, authorizing the Scout to begin the Merit Badge. You had a week on site to look at what the Aquatics Director and his staff were doing. You had a week to have a friendly cup of coffee with your campsite and/or camp Commissioner and share about the issue. You had a week to have a quiet businesslike conversation with the the Aquatics Director. You had a week to have a quiet businesslike discussion with the Program Director. You had a week to have a businesslike discussion with the Camp Director. You had a week to withdraw these youth from the class if you saw the training was inadequate, before the MB card was signed out. The Scoutmaster is the Gatekeeper. When it's about the quality of the program presented to your charges, the youth, the buck stops with you. Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 gives you little latitude. As long as a properly certified Counselor signed out the MB, it's a done deal. There are specific instructions in ACP&P for how the Council Advancement Committee is to certify Counselors serving the Council LT camping programs. I presume your Council adhered to those. You saw errors at the time. Who did you raise the flag with? Now, as to your options: May I recommend some heavy arm-twisting on your PLC for lots of aquatics activities over the coming year? May I recommend a quiet conversation with the parents, advocating swimming lessons? May I advocate SM conferences with the youth concerned, encouraging them to continue to develop their skills? Tend your flame, Sir. It needs tending. Learn from this episode, Sir, that you will ensure other Scouts get program which passes muster.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

@Gern: I would hope not. We're supposed to be courteous. Even hack Chicago machine politicians deserve a modicum of respect ...

I have more patrol leathers than I will ever know what to do with... From my perspective as a participant, I think you should have some, but not go overboard. The object of the gifts is to introduce the learners that even a small recognition matters Now, I will take this moment to give you my pet rock: Don't read the #### slides. I'm an adult, I read technical materials at the postgraduate level. Add value to the slides. Even better, although you have to follow the sylabbus, get me doing something that will, when you use the slides, reinforce an activity learned by doing.

They have WI-FI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D

Trev, you've actually made the point of one of my reasons. Scouting is supposed to be non-sectarian ... which means it favors no faith. It should provide resources for many faiths, vice a format that either is offensive to some/many. Customs need to be honored as well. Each faith has their own customs, and they need to be honored. God looks in our hearts, not at our actions. Those are to help us. So, you stayed home from Virginia as well, i take it, old Walika brother?

Lots of thoughts here. First, I coming more in favor of private time to worship ... a camp quiet time, particularly when the District or Council cannot get resources. The Buddhist boy in the case above should be expected to spend time in his meditations while others are at service. Second, the National Council does provide multi-faith resources. Who here has seen "Eagles Soaring High?" at Philmont or one of the other HA bases? Covers Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Islamic faith communities with materials unique for each. Supply Corporation has published that as a resource. Wonderful tool. Other faith communities should be encouraged to do similar items for their Scouts. I like how Jamboree is being organized, with plenty of faith coverage. You'll note, though, that Chip Turner (and I've met him at Relationships Week conferences at PTC) kept the daily stuff to the OT. I think he could have done better, with a set of readings covering the major groupings. Oh, well. SSScout ... yes, we do need to convince Terry that we need a forum for faith matters. I do not have to embrace anothers' faith, I do have to respect it. As I said in the first hours of this thread, I'll sit at the campfire with you, talk across the table with you, study and learn from you: Just do not ask me to go to your worship as a worshipper with you. I think that's reasonable.

Our Scout Reservation limits Lakefront MBs because of their popularity. There just is not the capacity. I am not thrilled with the reason you describe for a minimum age. Now, with that, the only remedy I see is for families to vote with their sons' feet

I am wondering how this one turned out?? My hope is the IH let the youth learn safe firearms handling and use. :-)

Baden, Please see my earlier posts. God's Word speaks for itself. I've cited several passages from Scripture, in context. I have even provided a location to read them online. Meanwhile, where are the citations I asked for from you?

Acco, teaching a boy to give a grace is, wile daunting for the boy, not a major theological event. Think of the Philmont grace, Johnny Appleseed, or even the doxology. Now, in a unit, I suspect there is far more often than not, relative commonality in faith grouping and practice. My issue is when larger gatherings of youth occur ... where faith groupings will be muddled. This is where non-sectarianism needs to become silent in practice and action. The materials National publishes are simply not acceptable. In trying to cover the bases by being generic, they become offensive to God.

Pack, Godspeed, fair winds, and following seas. Know your input here is valuable and appreciated, whenever you find chances to post. As you find time, serve Scouting by servi g the local youth.

To BadenP: I have laid out my argument from the Scriptures of Christendom. Please cite your arguments in similar writings to Gags: I refer you back to the comments from the Atlanta Area Council I posted above. There are Scouters who believe an interfaith service is worship. If so, please count me out. That crosses a bright line my God gave me. To WAKWIB: You and I are blessed to be in one of the largest Councils in the Nation. That we bed down 1500 campers a night at Bartle gives us a tremendous access to resources and capabilities. Even so, we cannot support all comers, which is why we should expect some Scouts and Scouters to have need of some of the quiet places on our proprty, such as the woods at the edge of campsite Cheyenne :-)

Google has a lot of stuff: Let me introduce you to some of it. I endorse none of it. As I have said, it's anathema: First, Commentary from the Atlanta Area Council: http://www.aacrrc.com/Scouts'%20Own.htm Some writers have said that Scouts Own is not a worship service. They are wrong. In the broadest sense of the term, Scouts Own is a worship service. Some writers have said that the focus of Scouts Own is on the feelings of the Scouts who participate. This is incorrect. Although participants in a worship service should feel good as a result of participating, the focus of any worship service is God. Some writers have said that there can be no true interfaith worship, because each faith group sees God differently. This is a short-sighted view. Even though each faith group has its own theological perspective and its own traditions, there are many religious truths which are common to all faith groups. I think some folks in Atlanta need to re-read the NT. Here's the OA Natioanl Lodge Leadership Development Conference Scouts' Own Format: http://lld.oa-bsa.org/docs/Scouts%20Own%20Service%20-%20Generic%201.pdf (there is another generic and an Amerindian one as well). Here is one posted out on scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7513142/BSA-Scouts-Owns-Service I can keep going on... Non-sectarian means we don't give preference to one faith over any other. As a Scouter, I'm ok with that. We need to support each faith group and family in our Councils to raise young people according to the traditions of faith. We are not here to be a substitute for faith development. SSScout is right; we need a faith topics forum. I'm beginning to understand why some elements of Baptist Churches (which elect to use Royal Rangers vice Scouting) and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod will not participate in Scouting. We need to support our families in their childrens' development of faith, not be a substitute for faith in those families

E92 nails this thread to the wall. We need an Outdoor Skills course that allows the leader to study a host of basic outdoor skills across more than one weekend. Now, with that, some of the things we do are utterly obsolete. Who is going to cut down trees to provide the timbers for a signal tower in the Leave No Trace era? BSA has been, and sometimes rightly so, accused of using outdoor techniques that are damaging to a micro-environment. Who still ditches tents? Who still digs trenches for fire pits? Who cuts branches for browse beds? Like it or not, the techniques espoused by Hillcourt need updating before we redeploy the pre-1965 curriculum. The US Army does not even issue signal flags anymore. The Navy does make blinker signal with Morse and run flag hoists ... when vessels are operating in close proximity. They just as often send digits across a radio-based LAN. Even so, we need to teach that outdoor cookery is not as precise as our kitchens, that comfort in the winter means dry socks and layers, and comfort in summer means rationing your activity, not your water intake. Now, since I am the OP, let me remind folks why this thread was created? It was to allow us to answer a question about why we serve and why we take WB. I think even Kudu would agree that if you're not here to serve the youth, either directly or indirectly, then why did you even take any WB?

Go to a baseball game. Go to some museum (you're on the East Coast. Go. Somewhere

BadenP, Where Beavah is coming from is a view held by more than one Pastor who is also a Scouter. It's also held by more than one layman. I wish I was going back to DC next weekend for my church bodies' national scouting association annual meeting, I'd actually put a motion in play to instruct our President to take a motion to the National Religious Relationships Committee condemning the published Scouts Own as anathema to Christendom, the Jewish faith, and Islam, among others.

The Pack my son started his Scouting trail in was "Dens UP" September to May. During the summer, the Pack was the center of activity: - June: Day Camp. - July: 4th of July Parade. In our Council, now, Bear Resident Overnight Camp and Webelos Camp. - August: Back to school (we supported our elementary with staff for an ice cream social) and recruitment. Also, we had a raingutter regatta/pool party/hamburger cookout/planning meeting.