John-in-KC

B, 20%?? THAT HIGH?? If it's that high in my neck of the woods, I'd call it a minor miracle. Heck, I know more than one Troop which has gone to a lawyer and incorporated a separate parents group to own the trailer ad infinitum. That doesn't even count the folks on the Left Coast (read Washington State) whose Councils have them self-charter. You're right about the commitment to youth, though. I do not care if it is Scouting or a HS activity parent boosters group: You have to love these young folk enough to want to commit your time. The only reward is their smiles and achievements!

Gunny, For YOU, who have the right to wear battle dress and digital Marine combat uniforms (I don't know the name for your newest pattern)... absolutely. Wear them in the back-country. It's a more honorable path to their retirement than dropping them in the trunk for years on end. For your YOUTH, yes, Cabela's or Bass Pro (gotta give credit where credit is due for your closest outfitter ) may be a suitable answer. OTOH, I've seen a lot of 100% cotton sweat shirts, meant for in-town wear, overprinted with someone's patented cammy. The material, as you well know, has to match the intended purpose. In some environments, HECK YES, wear a blazer. We both know hunting season is on in our neck of the woods. That trail the Eagle Patrol is hiking on may have someone with a TRP from a stand 300 yards away, whether he's supposed to or not (Sad side story, I was campmastering at Camp Runamuck 3 weekends ago; the game wardens were busy folk going after spotlight hunters). As far as ALICE, its successor gear, and older LBE go? It's rugged, sure as anything! It also weighs a lot. I can probably pack another days' rations for the tare weight of a medium ALICE pack on a frame. I can pack a tent and two days rations for the weight of the current GI fartsack. That said, don't make me give up my Gore-Tex parka or may rain top!

Scoutlady, It's the COR's call on whether or not the DE gets brought in. As Beavah said, "But it's da CO's call. BSA will almost always follow the CO's lead." Often, I ask for more information, because a simple question in Scouting too often has an answer of "well, here's what xxx BSA pub says". This is one time we didn't need "the final element" of the story. As to those who made comment about the morals in play here, there is one, and only one, moral judgment which counts for this case: That judgment belongs to the Chartered Partner! Do I personally think a few people had a huge "dumb attack?" YES. Does my vote in this case count? NO. I think Barry is smack on in his comment "Im betting their recruiting will struggle next year." There's a lot of drama going on in Peyton Place. All concerned need to get done with the drama and get on with raising up young men.

Gunny, If you can, specifically detail an ASM to be "program-program coordinator." He listens to Packs for their needs and helps allocate resources to the task. A quality I would look for in this man is a superb 1/1 mentor to your Den Chiefs. In a perfect world, they can report back on what they're doing and what their own needs are, and you approach more and more Scout-Run. I've not seen this tried before, but if you get enough Den Chiefs out there supporting Packs, you might consider asking them if they want to form their own Patrol... that way the reach-back to Cubbing has a direct voice at the PLC, where program is set. You can also give them some special privileges for going beyond what other Scouts do in working the program!

Joe, At this point, I think a good thing for you would be to buy a cup of coffee for the District Advancement Chair and your Unit Commissioner. Explain what you found, what you're doing to fix things, and how you want to go forward. I would hope the DAC and UC will have some good ideas to help you. I would also hope they'll back you if there are some sticky wickets with parents in the coming weeks. At the end of the day though, please take a moment to inventory how your Troop does against all 8 Methods of Scouting. Find out if there are other challenges you'll have to deal with. Build yourself a plan to eat the elephant, one bite at a time.

We've had frost on the windshields. Feed the meter time!

Cub Scout and Boy Scout YP is online. While the fundamentals are the same, Venturing YP has some gender-specific rules. Sadly, SFAIK, Venturing specific YP training is not online. If you've done it a few times, the online training allows you to move through the work, revisit the critical information and keep moving along. Less than an hour a YEAR keeps you fully current. To me, this is a "just do it" kind of moment...

I suspect we could get away with Textiles, Tailoring and Tentmaking as a MB name. Make a healthy part of the requirements pertain to canvas, ripstop nylon, Gore-Tex , and other fabrics used in camping and backpacking. Include inserting grommets and zippers, patching, as well as hemming and seam sewing. Make the MB structured: do the heavy canvas stuff first, then work to the lightweight fabrics of shirts and pants. Another option: Integrate at least the heavy fabric stuff into camping MB, integrate the light stuff into something like Family Life MB.

Den14Dad, Welcome to the Forums. I do not have a copy of BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures at hand right now, but will consult tonight... if someone else doesn't post from it earlier. Cub Advancement policy is part of the book. From what I remember, electives can be done multiple times. Since we have slightly different advancement plans for Wolf and Bear (Wolf has specific achievements, Bear has a choice of achievements to rank, and then you can use the rest as electives), it's worth checking.

Gunny, The other Joe is between a rock and a hard place, particularly on ranks submitted to Council. I don't have my copy at hand, but Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures is quite plain: Once awarded, rank is ir-revocable. Joe, reading of the posts here, I think Eamonn has given you the best course of action. Postpone the COH. Get the SM Conferences and BORs done. Tell the Committee, in no uncertain terms, that the advancement plan works, and you intend to follow it. BTW, BSA internet advancement iirc requires hardcopy, with signatures, follow-up, and you, as the SM, are the signer of record! I would, urgently, ask your DE or the Council Registrar for an advancement status report. ScoutNet can generate it. I'd audit the records closely to make sure the youth have what they are supposed to! You've been given a can of worms, the next few weeks will be trying on your patience. Good luck.

Ed, LongHaul was using YP as an example of a liability issue. The issue at hand is a morals and mores issue of adults. It properly belongs in the hands of the CC, COR, and IH ... and certainly not the parents.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Scoutlady, welcome to the Forums! You said: "The best the SM can do is to call a parent's meeting to let them decide." I'm sorry, Scoutlady, but the SM can do far better than calling a parents meeting!!! The best the Scoutmaster can do is privately share his concerns with no more than three people: The Chartered Organization Representative, the Committee Chair, and (perhaps) the District Commissioner. The Chartered Partner is the owner of record of your Troop. The Executive Officer of the CP, together with the COR, are the ones to make decisions. They may coordinate with the District Commisisoner, District Executive, and/or Scout Executive for advice. They may ask for information in detail. LongHaul has this right. Spread this out in the open, a la manure on a garden field, and some lawyer will have a field day collecting big bucks. Without regard to BSA's liability insurance, being taken to court for slander or libel just isn't fun. If it comes out that the folks were slandered or libelled, the credibility of those spreading the manure may well be gone... forever. If, as the Chartered Partner determines the facts of the matter, and applies its own standards of conduct to the service of leaders, well, that's why they volunteer to license and support Scouting. They may decide to keep one or both leaders. They may decide that one or both leaders should no longer serve Troop ABC. They may decide to ask the Council to revoke memberships. On a practical level, going forward, there is a commonsense guideline to apply: Adults who are not married to each other just do not enter someone of the opposite genders' tent.

dordor1, Welcome to the Forums!! Keeping 8 year olds down for more than 5 minutes is almost mission, impossible. Keeping 16 of them down that long IS mission, impossible. Barry had a really good idea waaay up above about dividing the den into smaller sections for activities like this. To do that, he required parental involvement. You're a volunteer, most emphatically not their babysitter. You do not have to accept un-helpful behavior from parents. Ask for specific help at specific meetings (can you do the Den snack? It means something for 16 kids, and you need to be here by XX PM..... Can you lead the Den game in 3 weeks? Game involves half the den at XX time for 20 minutes, then the other half of the Den for 20 minutes). If they say NO, then ask your hubby the CM to talk a bit more bluntly about help. The fact of the matter is there are two full-sized dens in your den. Several leadership psych books discuss the number of foks 1 can directly supervise as being 5-11. Scouting, from B-P's days onward, took the 8 to be a fairly firm number. Good Scouting!! PS: Barry, yes, you were right about 2-deep and meetings. It's, as you said, 2 deep for sanity!

This thread is similar to the "What do you REALLY Wear?" thread in the Uniforms forum. Cub Scouters out there (and folks in District service supporting Cub Scouting)... I'd like to ask 4 simple questions. Honest answers, please. As Beavah said in the uniforms thread: No fair gettin' down on anybody for being honest and sharin' now! A Scout is Courteous. And we all have to be honest too, eh? A Scout is Trustworthy. " Here are the questions: 1) What type of Den do you lead, orare you a Pack level Scouter, or are you a District Scouter supporting Cubbing? 2) How often does your Den meet during September to June (or your local school year)? 3) How often does your Pack meet during September to June (or your local school year)? 4) What kinds of summertime activities does your Den or Pack participate in (Day Camp, Family Camping, 4th of July parade, August swim, Webelos Camp...???)

I agree with OGE on this Scout, given the information we have. Using the presumption that this Scout has not performed his 6 months time in a POR, his "Mission: Impossible" date is 18 years less 180 days.* Simply put, at that point he cannot meet the minimum time service demanded by Eagle requirement 4. There are 3 other "Mission Impossible" dates: Family Life: 18 years less 90 days (reqt 3) Personal Fitness: 18 years less 84 days (12 consecutive weeks, reqt 7) Personal Management: 18 years less 91 days (13 consecutive weeks, reqt 2a) If a Life Scout has not started these MBs by those key dates, he's done. He cannot obtain them prior to aging out of the Boy Scout youth member program. *(I picked 180 because there was no combination of six months, using February, which gave me a total less than 180. Many gave 182, some 181.)

Well, Gold Winger, we're both wrong: http://www.threefirescouncil.org/Advancement/ad_aol.htm I think I trust a Council website more than I trust Mr Murray. If we really want to go for it, I'll meet you at the Ernest Thompson Seton Library in Philmont next summer, and we can really find out. The requirements for specific badges may have moved left and right, but the AOL has been around a good 15 years longer than I have, and I'm 51.

Just a note: As meameng posts, Boy Scout Requirements is available online (http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215). Requirements is explicitly referenced in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA stock 33088, as the source for the details of advancement in the Boy Scout, Varsity, and Venturing (as regards male Venturers who are at least First Class in Boy Scouting) programs are concerned. ACP&P is not currently offered online.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

HUH? What kind of arcane knowledge and Indian Lore is being given out here?? I was a Cub 1964-67. The ranks were Wolf, Bear, Lion. (Ages 8, 9, and 10 in turn). Starting at age 10 1/2 you worked on your Arrow of Light and transitioned to Boy Scouting. As I became a Lion in the Fall of 1966, the Webelos Den started up. I have a Big "en point" square W where my Den numerals went. The year following, Cub Scout Division stripped out the Lion rank and instituted the Webelo award. It's been around in some form or other ever since. The Arrow of Light has ALWAYS been there. As to the knot: It's one of the 3 common youth earned knots. Wear it with pride. (The other two are Eagle and youth religious award).

Fred, Print Lisa's post and take it with you as a checklist!!! I think some of your time right now is well spent visiting with the CM and his family. They also do not need to be churlish in the process, that does generate a lose/lose which the kids will see! You may want to help outplace them into a new Pack, so there is separation in space and time between the feuding grown-ups (I can see a shouting match in the parking lot, I can see gloating). BTW, remember your role is to be a friend to the unit... NOT to be the sole super-savior of units. As a guy who had no UC to seek advice from during some tough times, that you are on top of the situation is a sign you're doing well as a Commish.! Keep us in the loop.

B, Am going to agree and disagree. At one level, agree a more complex analysis of root causes is needed for any one specific unit. Disagree that you cannot cut to the chase at the macro level. Have a good friend who is a six digit a year project leader for EDS. We worked together in a two-star HQ at Rock Island Arsenal. He was brought in because he is a manufacturing engineer by his civilian job, I came in because I'm moderately well versed in Army collective training for senior leadership. He always starts by forcing folks to go to a "100,000 foot" view, and then look in. At a macro view, you can make the fundamental decision of an issue being rooted in A or B (or perhaps C). Then you can better apply limited resources (time, talent, and treasure) at solving the big problems first. As for the 0-12 football team, it often ends up with a new program officer! Going back to your example of a HA trip, what you proposed isn't unreasonable: Leaders can and properly should expect a time and energy committment from the participants. They're going someplace where they may have to be more self-reliant. They need to be ready for the long day on the trail! Leadership, in a unit, also should have reasonable expectations. I do not think it unreasonable for a SM to ask for an "on my honor" commitment from a Scout before he stands for office or accepts an appointed POR. I further think it fully reasonable that the SM contact the Scouts parents and make sure they understand the commitment in terms of his time and energy. No one said the job of a Scouter is easy. They did say it would be rewarding.

B, They do feed on themselves. Even so, if I had "program strength" and "boots at the meeting" challenges at the same time, I think I'd start by solving the program strength challenge.

The Honor Camping Society of the Boy Scouts of America.

Fred, 1) Everybody take a deep breath. Period. This is a high stress time. 2) Unless the root cause of the removal is criminal or YP related, the outgoing CM deserves thanks from the Committee, the other program side folk, and the Chartered Partner. 3) If I recall duties correctly, the CC may serve as an emergency/interim CM pending appointment of a new one. 4) The Chartered Partner wants the existing folk out; they need to speak up clearly and describe what right looks like for a new CM. 5) Folks need to be clearly and plainly reminded that the Chartered Partner is the licensee of Scouting, program officers and committee folk serve at the Partner's pleasure. 6) It is sad that this is a consequence of the root cause being a family feud. Since you do not indicate criminal/YP behavior on the part of the CM/ACM, see my point in 2) above. The CC may not like thanking the CM when he is in a fued, but it must be done, and done properly. Otherwise, the world will know the CC is absolutely churlish.

Agree with Beavah!!! There are materials which legitimately belong for sale, but a lot of the program Scouting offers belongs accessible to unit serving Scouters!

Write if you need help, I suspect someone of us will be able to help you along... John I used to be an Owl C-40-05