John-in-KC

Important to understand in Cubbing is a 6 letter acronym: Keep It Simple Make It Fun KISMIF Lots of success available to parents as well as the kids... but KISMIF has to be there!! These kids will get as much a charge going to the fire station as an 18 year old will going to a new car dealership!

Depends on the activities the youth want. You CAN backpack up the Appalachian Mountains for a week. That requires conditioning, and the kids need gear, but the biggest off-the-trail activity I remember was fishing. You''re too tired to swim Having the folks who can safely supervise and operate rifle range, archery range, and a pool means a certain manpower intensity. Do you have BSA Lifeguards? Enough to meet G2SS demands for unit swims? Daily? Can you plan to build Cooking MB in for a bunch of young men? They''re going to have to produce 27 different meals. I don''t know how big your Troop is, what the mix of ages and experiences are, and how many adults you expect to support an in-house camp. It can be rewarding... it can also invite a huge failure that sends youth away from Scouting forever. I''m not asking for back-story info; I''m asking you to think closely about the resources you have available.

Or what!!! Frankly, you''ve hit a problem of modern America: The natural tendency of one generation to be more successful than its parents is no longer a sure thing. My generation, the boomers, will be more successful than the generation of the Depression era, but you of Generation Y? That''s not a sure thing. My generation forgot about "for better, for worse, til death do us part." We''ve given your generation children of divorce. My generation dealt with many issues not by doing right, but by going easy. How many celebrities do we see in rehab? How many young celebrities? Christian or Jew, Buddhist or Muslim: We find a reason to dislike others because they have bedrock values. Scouting? The Game with a Purpose? What will it deliver before my son is 16? Your youthful idealism is butting up on the cynicism of the real world. Others have been there. How you choose to apply the values you learned in the Troop will determine how you present yourself to the outside world. This is a specific forum, we talk with the language of folk who understand the program. Doubtless you have seen the Advancement thread about "Active." How we, the Scoutmasters and Committee Chairs and MBCs out there make that happen will determine how strong the Ideals Method actually gets instilled in the youth. I hope all this almost stream of conciousness helps. Adulthood is not easy. Sometimes it is not fun either. We muddle through, one day at a time.

I have to agree with LH here. We''ve talked a bit about trainers as "training distractions," we also have to talk about "content as a training enhancement or distraction." When I taught for Mother Army, my students had common knowledge bases: They were either wet behind the ears Lieutenants, who had some military training at the Academies or in ROTC, or they were Captains, who had 4 years in the trenches or so. The task analysis included previously learned (and mastery expected) knowledge, and the learning hierarchy level (from identification up through synthesis) associated with the task. From what I''ve seen in Scouting, training assumes little knowledge of anything, and has to meet a gamit of learners: At one end we''ll have a plumber or carpenter, at the other an attorney or doctor. That makes a challenging mix of training audiences. From what I''ve read here, one common training distractor is the course design does not include sufficient time for all the questions. A student should never have a reasonable question unanswered, even if the instructor has to say "let''s take that offline, I promise a proper answer by Friday next." From what I see here, some students are leaving with unanswered questions for time, or unspoken questions for fear of being labelled a springbutt. For those who are approaching being instructors and content providers, I think BSA can and should tell us HOW they decide how content is prepared for training and why they choose to present it in certain ways. From experience, I think the BSA Lifeguard curriculum, with the huge amounts of practice time (in my Councils'' pools) given it, is a very effective course package.

Fred, August/September-ish, one of our professionals put out a constant contact message to Eagles in our Council, seeking video footage of Eagle Leadership Service Projects in action. EagleSon had made a video CD as part of his project for the "lasting gift" to his hospitals. We sent that to our professional to send to Irving. We also sent info about required copyright coordination, since EagleSons'' project involved barbershop quartet and chorus singing. He had limited licensure from the Barbershop Harmony Society. As I understand it, the show will actually air next Spring. I don''t know if it''s a first, or the beginning of an occasional series. HTH

Lots of good advice here. While it won''t solve the Guide to Safe Scouting challenges which demand two adults at a Den meeting, there is a program person who can be a huge aid: A DEN CHIEF Den Chiefs are Boy Scouts, hopefully a bit seasoned, who volunteer to reach back and serve Cub Scouting. They work with 1 Den. Working together with the Den Leader, they divide the labor of a Cub den meeting and take on specific tasks. They support the overall meeting plan. How do you get a Den Chief? You have your Cubmaster ask for one from area Troops. Is there a cost? Yes, you should expect to attend Den Chief Training with your Den Chief, so both of you are on the same sheet of music. When the time comes, you should expect to go to his Court of Honor and help award him his Den Chiefs Cord (it is a doo-dad which goes on his uniform, and if he serves a certain period of time, is a permanent part of his youth uniform). There is a cost in time, the DL and the Den Chief need to put their heads together and plan. The Den Chief needs to have a certain degree of accountability, but this is handled much closer to a near-peer relationship than it is a boss-subordinate relationship. Going back to the original issue, 13 splits into an almost full den of 7 and a goodly sized den of 6. One option one DL friend of mine did, years ago, is he split his den into 2, and did 2 meetings... a Monday den and a Tuesday den. Yes, he had to give more time, but he had more parental support (some were available on days others weren''t, and vice versa) and more opportunity for close attention to the youth. Have fun with these Cubs.

JeffD, See what Beavah said up above? Follow it. I would add... ask around and see if there is a Scouter who has a valid commission as law enforcement for your home jurisdiction and for your destination jurisdiction. You may want him/her there no matter what! Input from the boys'' legal parents is vital, and soonest. That is simply reiterating what others have already said.

Joni, What you are asking is exceptionally sensitive, and has potential for lots of hurt. If it were my Troop, I'd obtain a local Pastor I could trust... someone who has exceptional skills in discernment, and who has seen most of it at least once before. Next, I'd contact my District Commissioner. Yes, in this case, I'd bypass the UC. Keep the loop as small as you possibly can. Further, I'd bring my COR into the loop. That's a total of five folk, including SM and CC. I'd have a very informal BOR with the young man, SM, CC, DC, Pastor and COR. Nobody in Scouting clothes. The uniform would be a hindrance here, not a help. Do this offsite from the meeting area, things are going to be difficult enough, we need barriers lowered, not raised. This is not a time for confrontation, this is a time to figure out where the young man's head is at. At one extreme, he is sexually active with his own gender, and busting YP guidelines to boot. At the other, someone is telling stories on him. Both are possible. I'd let the DC decide what point the matter needs elevation to the Professional Service. If the young man lets loose that he's committing statutory rape (what was the old adage, 16 gets you 20?) with either gender, there's a problem. Once again, this is hugely sensitive and may end up derailing the young mans entire life. Tread softly and carefully here, make haste slowly!!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I forget if you are Committee Chair or Cubmaster??? If you are either of those persons, the next TWO people to take this issue to are: - Your Chartered Organization Representative. - Your District Executive. Both will be able to give you guidance on this. They are two of the people who matter in this, as they represent both sides of the Scouting contract. The COR will make a decision about if your Chartered Partner is OK/not OK with this person attending meetings or being at an outing. (He may well have to go to an attorney member or rerpesenting the Chartered Partner). The DE can tell you whether or not this person should be disqualified from any BSA leadership position. THe DE has resources available, including attorneys on retainer who can provide local, competent legal advice. (The attorney Scouters here are stalwart and sterling folk, but may not be current on any specifics of the law where you live). If you are any other position in the Pack, then this challenge needs to rise to your CC or CM. Keep this matter a close circle. No leader in the Pack needs an invasion of privacy lawsuit. Scouting doesn't either under its liability policy.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Editing hasn''t worked for me.... So, what is the secret, Trev???

Oak Tree, I''m going to respectfully disagree. The COR properly should be involved in the recruiting and selection of leaders (perhaps the most important job) and ensuring that the CO is fulfilling its side of the BSA License contract (aka the CHARTER). COR especially makes sure the Program officer and the CC are worthy to their positions. How many times have we seen CM/CC head-butts because no one looked at both of them and said "work nice?" I do like your #3. That''s darn important.

Lisa, If I know you at all from these Forums (and after 3 years I hope I''m learning a little of how your Scouting mind works), this young man is getting periodic adult association through Scoutmaster conferences and "not for advancement" boards of review. If he is happy, if he is learning, if he''s progressing in school, and if he''s safe for a couple of hours each week, then life is good. I think that last feels a tad important to me; is there something in his family life that you, the CC, and the Scoutmaster should know about? (That is rhetorical and not a call for information btw ).

Lots of "recognition" aids... Amazing, but folks forget that a simple "Thank You" builds good-will. A simple certificate, done with some desktop publisher, goes far! A Public thank-you, at a committee or program meeting, stretches that simple Thank you... A very token gift (hiking staffs are popular) signed by parents and kids, can mean as much as the most expensive commercial backpacking staff. Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures BSA 33088 describes the District Award of Merit and the Silver Buffalo, which are BSA''s adult thank yous! HTH...

Barry, Thanks, and I think that point about the SM sharing with parents is well said. Yes, if approached with care and compassion, the SM can turn around a win-lose or even a lose-lose.

Barry, I like what you had to say. I would add: Removal of a Scout from a POR has a potential 2d order consequence: Removal may well cause the Scout to walk away from Scouting. Is that what the young man and the Troop need and want? That last question ought to be exceptionally tough to answer! Make haste slowly!

I''ve been watching and reading (and spending a little time in the woods as a Campmaster), so I think my own position is jelling: - A late returner should be welcomed back into the fold, as far as Troop membership goes. - A late returner should not expect a POR to fall into his lap. If an elected position, he has to compete like every other. If a warrant (appointed) position, he has to show why he''ll be the best for the job. - A late returner should not expect a MB Counselor to drop everything because he''s close to the 90 day bell for FL, PF, and PM. He has to plan out his trail to account for things. - A late returner should not expect his SM, L--->E Coordinator, and CC to work intensely with him on his Eagle project simply because he ages out of the youth program in 30 days. Equally, he should not expect a first meeting with the District Advancement Chair outside the normal approval cycle for the same reason. - A late returner should not expect to execute his Eagle Project 10 days before his 18th birthday and have everyone magically show up. Does this all make sense?

OFO, I have to agree, we need the backstory. I tend also to agree on the issue of simply not attending. That said, if it is an attendance issue, is the young man in hospital? Is he out of hospital, but on long term home care? It may be worth it to visit with him and his parents, and sort things out. On performance, what training have you and other leaders provided him to assist in performance? I''d expect a Scribe to have close overwatch from the Troop Committee Secretary and Treasurer the first month or so of his tenure. I''d expect the Quartermaster to be given specific training on skills he doesn''t already have. Are you really, truly, in your heart convinced this young man is one of the less than 2 per cent who just will not work out in this POR? Is there a POR he''s better suited to (was this assignment a mis-fit?)?

Is Woods Wisdom (or Troop Program Features) a bin item, and thus freely reproducible, or is it copyrighted/licensed material that BSA expects members to pay for??? From what I can tell, the 3 volumes (corresponding to the 3 year cycle of Scouting program themes) of Troop Program Features are PURCHASE items, not bin items. I agree with the other posters about packaging a topic into a single multi-page pdf.

Kudu, In my neck of the woods the TV channel investigative reporters crash on anything and anyone, including legitimate people doing legitimate things. If hassling "Joe Citizen" will get the 5 O''Clock News better ratings, they''ll do it. An area HS football coach had a 10th grader break his leg in practice. The next day, the TV folks were there in full force, interviewing the Principal, the Vice-Principal and AD, the Coach, the parents... Should gwd, or any Scouter, conciously accept exposure to the public eye for legitimate actions, and be harrassed for it? Unabashedly, NO. If the Professional Service is going to "support" us in the trenches, then they need to do right and good things for us. Thank the good Lord my DD, Sr DE and DE are all good people. Of course, in our neck of the woods, school days for Scouting are long gone, too. The best recruiter is still boy-boy, the best recruiting aid is still great program.

gwd, You have a right to be apprehensive in an era where all manner of bad folk are going after our children. Your DE had an obligation as well... to provide you LEGIBLE input. I would do three things in this circumstance: 1) Do the research needed to get full names tied off to phone numbers. anywho is a pretty good resource there. 2) Some people will not be publicly listed in the criss-cross. I''d dump those back on your DE and say "please find me enough data to call these kids." 3) I''d get my PLC together for a call party at wherever you meet. Let them do the calling work, (it approaches being Scout-run then), and let them have the glory of recruiting kids. Also... let them have pizza!

Very cool, hope things are going well in freshman year. Depending on when the app gets given to your Scout office, and when they mail it to Irving, you should have your certificate and your "credit card" in as few as 10 days.

Welcome to the Forums. As CM, you have access to your Chartered Organization Representative. You need to get your Chartered Partners position on these funds, pronto. Talk to your COR. As the Program Officer of the Pack, I''d recommend a simple instruction to the Den Leaders: - Go through the Committee Chair and Treasurer for funding needs. If the money was not raised under a Council-approved fundraiser (and Council generally only approves ONE fundraiser per Pack per year, I''d call on the Den to do the right thing and remit the funds to the donors.

LH, I agree with your last paragraph in toto. John

LH, Some ideas are fantastic... need no comment from the leader, and run. Some ideas are good ... the leader stays quiet, but he sees where the tweaks can be. Some ideas are not good ... the leader has to decide if there is merit in allowing failure and then drawing the lessons. Some ideas are out and out toxic and deserve a quick death. Formal evals of youth leaders by folks not well trained in how to evaluate people is a toxic idea, from all my professional experience. The risk of inappropriate failure outweighs any possible benefit.

I was a youth program member 1968 to 1974 or so. 11 to college. Back then, I remember learning a lot of skills, but JLT? No. Brownsea? No. It was all about the outdoors. I was a PL to get to Star, an instructor and Scribe to get to Life, and SPL at some point after Life. Now, it''s still about the outdoors, but we''ve been pushing more training on adults, and more formalization of methods and implementations on the youth. We have lots of folks saying Scout Run now... we want to emphasize the Patrol Method, we talk lots of leadership development and adult association. Over the years, beyond Scouting, leadership pscyh has appeared in my army schools time and again. I got it in ROTC, again before I went to my first assignment, and regularly thereafter. It was also part of training in my units, both on active duty and after I reverted reserve. Without regard to BSA current policy, I think our job is raise up young men, using "the game with a purpose." I want them to make good judgment calls, to get things done, to learn that teamwork pays off. I want them to learn to enjoy the outdoors... the computer will always still "be there." From my experience, maybe 10 per cent of all the youth we touch will be self-starters on Scouting tasks inside PORs. They''ll already have a fundamental interest. Most, perhaps 70%, will learn quickly (Quadrant 1 (High Direction, Low Support) of the leadership quadrant model) and finish their terms in Quadrant 2 (High Direction, Low Support). Another 15% will never get out of Quadrant 1. They''ll get it done, but the SPL, ASPL, or adults will have to nag them throughout their tenure. The last 5% are the tough cases. They cannot or will not perform. They will occupy an inordinate amount of leader time. Some we will get through, by sheer brute energy, but the last two per cent or so are the ones who just may fail, no matter what we do. We''re never going to have perfection. The Models are there for a reason, they are exemplars to us, so we can help the youth. I''ve been fortunate along the trail, a couple of youth who I thought were in the 80-95 range got into the 10-80 range, and there was more encouragement. I''ve told, in the thread I spun this off, of the one young man we had to send home. That was a sadness... it was his last time in Scouting. He has since been in Juvenile Hall and recently encountered the adult courts. We''re here to make a difference, and each of us has to decide for himself how to make best use of the 3 aims and the 8 methods. I''ve learned, the hard way, that at the unit level, we constantly have to balance the Methods to get the most out of each young man. YIS