John-in-KC

OGO, While it's a time to discuss expectations and standards, it's also a time to call in his peers and visit with his teachers. Hormones alone do not explain sudden and massive shifts in behaviors. SOMETHING is going on in this young man's life... something he won't share willingly. Quit worrying about the Eagle. The young man needs you and others like you. Eagle will take care of itself, one way or the other.

ps, There are some issues on which I believe there can be no compromise. We, as a society, should enshrine the sanctity of human life from conception forward. OTOH, we dismantled the support system for unwed mothers over 4 decades ago; they are on their own. You can't be pro-life without proposing a solution. No, just saying no isn't the universal answer. Ever since Adam and Eve, conception has happened. It's not wishable away. OTOH, how we determine the proper mix of road, rail, riverine, air, highway, and pipeline as transportation nodes is an area reasonable folk can find middle ground. The guiding principle should be how do we move the most goods with the least environmental damage? The American worker, in proper adult full-time employment, has a right to a living wage with benefits. "The laborer is worthy of his wages." This means appropriate education and training. I'd rather see additional subsidy for personal development than increases in the "minimum wage." Does that make sense?

Our personal salvation is a different matter from our national political life. The Framers wanted a government where religion was not an inherent function of the government. If you want more detail, go back and read the Federalist Papers. That said, it's also blindingly obvious the Framers expected all people to be exercising faith in their personal lives. Was there an a-theist Framer? I've not found him yet. The wall of separation dates to Wm O Douglas and 1947... within some of our lifetimes, and near many of our lifetimes. The real issue is does the politician use one or more moral/ethical cornerstones to anchor his professional life? Those cornerstones can be faith, the 10 commandments, the Scout Oath and LAw... but something that is absolute, not relative. When we unhinge morality from the absolute, we get the moral slop we now have. What I'm looking for in all candidates is: Is it blindingly obvious their faith is one of their moral cornerstones. I expect most people practicing a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition to want strong law covering civil order, to want strong law protecting the sanctity of all human life (from conception to death), and to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." So far, I've been singularly unimpressed with the field. Almost every candidate is pandering to a base. No one seems to have a strong, coherent vision for our Nation that looks at how we attack the myriad of issues facing us. America's challenges will not get well with the wave of a hand. They require mature, thoughtful, coherent compromise. Didn't someone once say politics is the art of the possible? Why these days do we have polemics as the art of the concrete? OK, enough diatribe. I now return you to figuring out if Mr Romney, because of his faith, is a suitable candidate. I've made that decision for me... but he's unsuitable for reasons other than his faith.

trev: Sorry. I'll let you read BOM and decide for yourself. My organizational church has enough problems on this earth. I don't need to take on their problems.

I'll go first. 1) Archeology. I can find historically ancient writings of both OT and NT works. I can find works which are not in the Scriptural canon, based on historic decisions of folks carefully praying for the will of the HS. Where are Joseph Smith's golden plates? 2) Scripture interprets Scripture. What I've read of Book of Mormon does not square with Jesus being one manifestation of God (in other words, God in the flesh). I do not find anything in OT/NT which will, upon my death, give me the power, dominion, and authority of God. I will be in Heaven, with God, worshipping Him. 3) This is really critical: EVERY ORGANIZATIONAL CHURCH ON EARTH HAS SOME FORM OF ERROR. You can see this just in the sheer number of organizations of the church. 4) Given 3, I have to remember that Christ tells me to take the log out of my eye before I can point out the splinter in someone elses' eye. I have enough faults of my own which He is working through me to change, thank you. I will simply pray He shows all of us our error, whatever it be, that we might repent and return to him. 5) So, where do I assess the LDS? It's an earthly organizational church which has human error introduced in it. Gee... just like the Roman Catholic church, the Episcopal church, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of the USA, ad infinitum. 6) God is the Judge, not I. My task as a single Christian is to proclaim Christ and His salvation through His life, death, and resurrection, by the power and ability of the Holy Spirit. His task is to judge. 7) "Render unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." Do I seek out His will for elected leaders of my Nation? Yes, emphatically. Come what may, I will vote. That said, there are other reasons than faith why Mr Romney is not high on my list of candidates. I will vote, for if I don't vote, I believe I do not have the right to complain about the decisions made!

I think it's time to say, no more posts from me in this thread. It's more fun, and more rewarding, to help a young Life Scout find his passion for an ELSP... a new Lodge Officer try to find buzz at an OA winter banquet, a new Day Camp PD find a way to fit activities to the Council theme for the year...

Jeff, The short version: Get your DE and/or a Commish involved. Ask them to sit down with both the Legion and the unit. LOOK AT THE OBLIGATIONS, together. If the Legion wants to do those, the next step is to talk to the PTA and the school itself. See if the PTA is willing to surrender its charter at the cycle time. In the meantime, evaluate what the school and PTA are providing in terms of the charter agreement. If you do choose to transfer the charter, you want to do this in friendship. As someone in another thread (and another part of the Scouter forums) discovered the hard way, burning bridges is almost never a good idea.

E, Any form of media then. Internet news, TV news (which is also going south), radio news, whatever will grab. If we are invisible, then we will be forgotten.

I'd get a PR guy who understand the news cycle into every Council. I'd have him look for every Scouting For Food day, Eagle Project day, camporee and OA induction possible. Invite the newsies to youth making a difference. Invite a fit newsie to share a Philmont trek with a troop. We don't do the best job of publicizing ourselves in our daily lives. There are lots of things which can and should make the local section of the paper. Then spend on TV, radio, internet,...

I've not tried this before, but maybe, if a young man has a vision to articulate, give him the floor after the Oath and Law and let him run with it. THEN, see where you need to probe... Anyone try that technique along the way? How were your results?

Things to look for: Troop Meeting... Is the SPL running the meeting, or are the adults? Are youth doing the training, or are the adults? Are youth looking either happy or at least task oriented, or are they bored? PLC: Is the SPL leading it, or the SM? Is there input and cross talk from the PLs and the Troop warrant officers (QM, Scribe, etc), or is it one talk, all listen? Campouts: Do patrols have their own areas, set their own tentage, and cook for themselves, or is it a common kitchen? Are the Scouts generally doing something that looks either like an activity, a game, or work, or is there a lot of grab-A## going on? COmmittee: Is it businesslike, with reports and cross-talk, getting done and getting gone, or is there a lot of "Why isn't Johnny...?" Is the SM given appropriate deference as the principal program officer, or are folks playing "stump the chump" with him? BONUS POINTS: Does the SPL report on activities of the program? Finally, do the youth say they are having fun, or do they say "I need to be Eagle by my 13th birthday so I can ..." In general, more front end of a question you answer yes to, the more likely the Troop is operating well. The more you answered yes to the back part of a question, the more likely the Troop is probably not where I'd send my boy, were I doing this over again.

Has anyone else noticed how Mr Rasmussen made his single drive-by post and never came back?

I would look at your Chartered Partner's guidelines on fiscal operations. Whatever they say do, DO. They are, after all, the licensee of record for the Scouting program.

He's prepping answers, imo. Give him a hard question from an unexpected corner: You have lots of moral/ethical/political/resource challenges in California, get creative EagleSon's EBOR was people he knew well, but 1 was Council Exec Bd, 1 was a District Commish, and 1 was an RT Commish. They were able to make him think

One note to what FScouter said: The insignia guide online specifically says it's an adaptation of the printed matter, and a real copy is a necessary reference. This is unlike BSA Requirements #33215 which is fully online.

This is an absolute mess. I'll let folks down in Florida deal with it. Now, that said... for those Arrowmen who wander in here, my thoughts: 1) If you even think you have a serious special needs case (and to me, wheelchair bound is a serious special need), it's time to ask the SE for the volunteer they "go-to" as staff Surgeon. Medical consultation is legitimate. 2) The Professional Staff Adviser to the Lodge needs to be in on the conversation as well, along with the Scout Camp Ranger. There is probably gainful employment for a wheelchair-bound, but there are other admin and support issues to work. A wheelchair-bound may have a 2:1 Elangomat to Candidate ratio. 3) The normal Ordeal weekend may not be the appropriate venue for induction. Our Council has an annual "special needs" camp: The Lodge goes out to it and runs an induction as part of the program. I know there are generally restrictions about Ordealing away from the home Lodge, but IIRC there are exceptions... and certainly the SE can contact the Regional Office for assistance, if not the Home Office in Irving. 4) As others have said, though, a lawsuit is rarely a good idea for friendly relationships between both sides of a disagreement. As Beavah pointed out, the SE has responsibilities to protect his professionals and his volunteers acting in good faith. "Never burn your bridges... you may need to cross them again someday." Good advice.

k0jsy, To answer your question, I had never heard of your denomination before you mentioned it. I had to google it, and found there are two CONGREGATIONS in the Kansas City metro. We are a 1M + Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area, so your local presence is pretty darn small. SFAIK, neither of these congregations charter units. If you want me to check, I will next week. As far as the square knot itself is concerned, I would go by whatever BSA Relationships Division and the Uniform Guide say more than any Pack/Troop/Crew website. Recognition of a youth religious award is a "lifetime" matter: The Scout can bridge that award into adulthood, as he can AOL, Eagle, Venturing Silver, or a West Fellowship. I would not give a youth member that knot lightly. Packsaddle, in the BSA/UUA conundrum, I tend to agree that BSA is the one not necesarily playing nice. Still, I would think it right for both sides to be able to accept each others core value sets. I have not read this organizations, nor do I think I need to, since I do not plan to leave the Lutheran church anytime soon. Does that make sense?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Wintertime in the American West can be exciting. A winter storm can do all kinds of fun with plans. Let's start with something simple. You're going to Tahoe, to Heavenly. That's grand. Let's have you visit the local Council Office in Reno: http://www.scouter.org/ That's the Nevada Area Council. With some luck, you might be able to hit a District Roundtable or other event! This last September, I was out visiting my folks in the Carson Valley below Tahoe and went to the RT in Gardnerville. If you don't know how to drive in snow/ice, please, don't make a vacation to America an experimental road trip. Not good to recover from the ditch after skidding off black ice. Staying on the West Coast, many Pacific shore councils have camps off the snow line; some are in year-round use. Safe and fun travel!!

1) To overcome GW's objection, leverage your HS age Life and Eagle Scouts. Ask them to help design program, help find resources (people and gear) and help make it happen! 2) Yes, invite-a-friend by S-T-2 kids should be the direct focus. Find high-speed, low-drag S-L-E kids to be area heads and keep things going. 3) Lock-in doesn't need to be in a building. It can be any manageable environment, including a camp site. The challenge of going outdoors is helping the non-Scouts be warm. You may have to borrow quality sleeping bags and have current Scouts show their friends how they make a warm winters' ground bed. That said, there's an appeal to indoor challenges as well. Lisa, how strong is your local OA chapter? This might be a great project for them to assist you with. I'll be interested in hearing if you decide to go forward, and how.

I just love random shot ad hominem attacks... One of the nice things about discretion is we get to define the word. Yes, the requirement is "participate in a Scoutmaster Conference." If the SM sees the Scout is just not ready, he can decide the conference needs continuing. Boys do have short attention span brain freezes. Boys do "wink out." If the SM determines he needs more time working directly with a Scout (it IS part of Adult Association, after all), so be it. As for MB programs, here's the lesson I've learned: Year 1, send just a couple experienced Scouts. Ask for their impressions of the operation and of the teaching. Since you're sending a couple boys, 2-deep leadership is in order. Let the adults also soak up impressions. If the program is a mill, never return. I've found that 15-16 year old HS students who are Life or Eagle Scouts can wave the baloney flag pretty darn well. They've seen good teachers and bad in their day jobs at the local HS!

I mod a forum at a completely different hobby website. My Creative Director is an Upstate New York Scouter. He unconditionally recommends Curtis A Read Scout Reservation. It has 6 campsites supporting patrol cooking, and 19 campsites supported by dining hall operations. It also has a HA operation. Here's the website http://wpcbsa.org/Read/

I do not live in the San Francisco Bay Area. I no longer live in California. I am still a Scouter. I will let the criminal justice system work its ways with Mr Evans. I will cry for the young people abused by this man, assuming he's found guilty. As Beavah said, there are moments where I'd love to have two minutes... just me and my weapon, with him. In the meantime, I'll serve the youth I can, follow two-deep and no 1/1 environments rules, and make a difference where I can. In a way, Merlyn's digging up the mud is useful: We can never be complacent about serving our youth well. B, thanks for the PM conversation. It applies here as readily as it did in discussing WB. YIS.

hotdesk, Not every Troop does, not every program offered does. Almost three years ago, we took the Troop to the SAC Museum up west of Omaha. Great place! Everything from very early aircraft to a B-1. The KC-97 Stratofreighter, which I saw flying into and out of Van Nuys Airport (ANG base there) as a kid, was on display! They had a "overnight MB program." It was excrement. MB MILL. The "talk with a professional (whatever the requirement is)?" 150 kids in the theater. I don't know about other places, but overnighter MB wonders? Exciting learning about something new becomes a checkblock, and the MB is no more than a bauble. This is but one anecdotal example. I'm certain others can give their own horror stories, of FCFY programs at Scout Camp which insist on signing off Scout Books, to MB mills, to... To me, it comes back to how a Chartered Partner chooses to employ its license of Scouting in its youth serving program. If garbage is desired, garbage is received. If doing it right is demanded, getting it done right happens.

Some resources to help: 1) Your National Organization Youth Division, whatever it's actually called, is a key player. They are also a player in that the lay leader or ministry professional in charge will be the proper initial contact with the Relationships Division of the Boy Scouts of America. 2) This is a vital step: Your denomination must accept the various BSA positions on issues, including the Declaration of Religious Principle. If this doesn't happen, it's time to cease work, or you will be tilting at windmills. Search through the archives for the Unitarian Universalists and the conundrum surrounding them and religious award recognition. 3) Assuming your National Organization and the National Council can "play nice", then we get down to the work of developing a curriculum, awards, getting the stuff MADE, and getting an inventory provider: The expert on all this is Mark Hazelwood of PRAY (Programs for Religious Activities for Youth), www.praypub.org, in St Louis. He not only writes the Protestant curriculum, he is the clearinghouse in support of many denominational activities. He can help develop medals and get them minted. As others have said, chartering 25 units is a threshold, but the other threshold is your denomination buys into the Boy Scouts of America and what they stand for.

Following up on Lisa'Bob's comment, and then retiring from this field, I will simply say Tom Peters management principle of "train and retrain constantly" applies to Scouting as much as it does to any hard or soft skillset. There are always new people to meet, new ideas to get, and new ways to get it (whatever it be) done. I've noticed, in my life, a fair bit of mis-information was once accurate, but has over time been supplanted by newer information. Yes, I plan to re-visit the continuum of training, from Cubbing through Venturing, in the coming many years... more than once. If only for the people I meet, I've never found a day of training not worth the effort. To answer Gern's question, yes, if there is a structural, fundamental change in WB, I'll opt to re-take it down the road. I'd better be in my grave when there are no longer new things to learn in this life.