John-in-KC

Lord Knows I am not without sin!! When you look at Ed, Bob, CA, OGE, Beavah, Lisa, kb6jra, Gold Winger, Eamonn, Calico, LH, Trev, CNY, Acco, emb, Gern, heck even Merlyn, we're not talking about a bunch of yay-who's who just signed an adult leader app. We have Commish, RT staff, District Committee, Council, Regional National and direct contact leader experience. Some of us can pick up the phone and ask a question of a Professional friend in Irving. Certainly several of us email offlist. Some have had the friendship move from online to on-site Some of our discussions are full of arcane knowledge, and perhaps some Indian Lore to boot. B, I'll do my best, but I won't pledge. It's too bloody hard way to often to get a feel for the situation from a few paragraphs. Remember the Rasmussens? We invested a fair bit of energy sharing what we thought from our limited knowledge base. Then we got a name and a case, and thanks to your access, we found there were deeper challenges. I know, certainly for me, that I need to look at what I write "one more time" before I hit that "submit your message" key. YIS, John ETA: Apologies to any Scouter friend who I didn't mention in that laundry list... like FScouter and eisely... My mind isn't what it once was...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

gwd, That's a good-news/bad news report, especially the latter part. The former part is good news/good news! As those boys transfer in, I think SM/CC parent discussions are definitely in order. I think you said the old Troop is dying for want of adult support to outdoor program events. You as the Program Officer and your CC as the Support Manager need a sensing of how much two-deep leadership support and driving support you're going to gain. Your existing core Scouters do not need to be set up for failure by way of activity support burnout... All that said, it's so wonderful to read this ongoing success story

Bottom line then is this: Beavah's interpretation of the BSA licensing and use model is then what is actually happening on the ground. The license provides opportunity for training; training is not a condition of the license. We'll all do our best to encourage folks to learn, but high volume systemic use of the training products? Don't count on it anytime soon.

A friend of mine did his Commissioner College "doctorate" on Troop size. Once you get past 50 or so, opportunities for Scouts to complete rank advancement requirements, particularly POR service and tenure decrease on a per capita basis. A SM has to get very creative desigining a youth leadership structure... - Multiple ASPL slots (his thought was 1 per 3 patrols) - Multiple Quartermaster slots (again his thought was 1 per 25 Scouts or major fraction thereof). - Possibly multiple Scribes (volume of workload). Even then, opportunity may be a bill-payer for size. Now, if the Chartered Partner says "I want it" (this presumes an active, caring, and properly trained IH/COR), then get out the bootstrap... it'll be needed.

B, Gotcha. E and L, I'm not sure I want the BSA to overtly say "We're a religious organization" to the open public. You open a humongous can of worms with that statement... with everything from can Muslim youth be in the same unit as Jewish youth, to what about the Catholics and the Missouri Synod Lutherans? I think we'd see denominations in the US asking a lot of questions about faith doctrine of BSA. I know my church (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) actively discourages its membership from Promise Keepers. Might LC-MS withdraw support from BSA? Dunno... I really, really, really do not want to go down this rabbit hole...

gwd, Glad you have more than enough gear. That takes one point of stress off the table. I like what both Lisa and Gern suggested. Beyond that, I think I'd also schedule an "adults-only" feedback session about 90 days after all the joinings happen. Listening to the transfers (especially) comments will help you decide to stay your course or to aim-off a tad. One serious question: Can your Scout Camp accommodate a significant change upwards in numbers? That's a potential challenge come this summer.

Lisa said it far more eloquently than I. Her post applies to my own EagleSon not quite word for word... and that is despite the fact we live in different States.

I certainly have an idea. Having read closely both the New Unit App and the Annual Charter Agreement, I think it's time Scouting revise the contract... make training a condition of charter and recharter for the IH and COR. Further, make training a specified condition of volunteer service. This is no more and no less than what OGE says his home Council does. As I've stated earlier, though, reworking the entire outdoor curriculum, so that it allows the outdoor novice to accumulate outdoor experience away from youth is a big need imo.

Assuming my invite shows up, I will attend the National Lutheran Association of Scouters periodic gathering.

Bob, In a different thread, you stated: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=179058&p=2#id_179210 "The unit's leaders all sign BSA membership application forms in which by their signature they contract with the BSA (and I quote) "I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the rules and regulations, of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council." What you cited were program materials. Can you or can you not cite from the Charter and Bylaws and Rules and Regulations? I'll relieve you from the burden of local council rules. As we've seen from OGE and others, some local Councils do have training of volunteers as a condition of volunteer service. So, can you or can you not cite from the National Charter/Bylaws/Rules-Regulations?

I see your premise nowhere on the New Unit Application or the Annual Charter Agreement. I'm looking at two BSA Forms online: http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf , the New Unit Application (NUA) and http://ozarktrailsbsa.org/downloads/annual_charter_agreement.pdf , a copy of the Annual Charter Agreemnt (ACA). The words are see are:the Chartered Organization "The executive officer of the chartered organization, by signature, certifies that the organization approves the charter application. The executive officer also certifies that the organization has approved all registering unit adults. The responsibility for approval of unit adults can also be given to the chartered organization representative" (NUA) and "(The chartered organization head or chartered organization representative must approve all leader applications before submitting them to the local council.)" (ACA) Here's another piece from the ACA: "Select a unit committee of parents and members of the chartered organization (minimum of three) who will screen and select unit leaders who meet the organization's standards as well as the leadership standards of the BSA. (The committee chairman must sign all leadership applications before submitting them to the chartered organization for approval.)" The Comitte may, as part of the process, be delegated a portion of the process. If delegated, the Chartered Organization has to define standards. At the end of the day, the burden is on the Chartered Partner, not the unit.

EagleSon is a tubist and goes to college this fall. I need my Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, Barry... CUBE matters right now.

Ok, it's time to play "Where's the Requirement?" I'm looking at two BSA Forms online: http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-402.pdf , the New Unit Application (NUA) and http://ozarktrailsbsa.org/downloads/annual_charter_agreement.pdf , a copy of the Annual Charter Agreemnt (ACA). I see in both cases, the Council "Provides training opportunities for your Scouting leaders" (NUA) and "agrees to" "Provide year-round training, service, and program resources to the organization and its unit(s)" (ACA). I also see, in both cases, the Chartered Organization "The executive officer of the chartered organization, by signature, certifies that the organization approves the charter application. The executive officer also certifies that the organization has approved all registering unit adults. The responsibility for approval of unit adults can also be given to the chartered organization representative" (NUA) and "(The chartered organization head or chartered organization representative must approve all leader applications before submitting them to the local council.)" (ACA) OK, I see this on the NUA: The chartered organization certifies that all registered adults: agree to abide by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law, the Declaration of Religious Principle, the policy of nondiscrimination, and the Charter and Bylaws and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America; agree to respect and obey the laws of the United States of America, and to meet age requirements as follows:" BUT I SEE THIS ON THE ACA: "The chartered organization agrees to: Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America. Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families." I've seen no requirement for training explicit to either form. So, will someone cite and quote me verbatim from the Charter and Bylaws and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (as used on the NUA) where the mandate for volunteers to be trained is? Edited to add: Training is good, right and proper. It equips people to do things. Tom Peters, one of the management gurus whom I respect greatly, says train and re-train constantly. The issue comes back to where on a continuum from "training is absolutely voluntary" to "training is mandatory without exception" BSA and the local Councils are. From everything I've seen to this point, BSA National Council has not made training a condition of volunteer service. Some local Councils have decided that volunteers need training as a condition of service.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

To me, when EagleSon was a youth member of the program (he's aged out now), letting someone else counsel him was a chance to leverage the Adult Association Method.

START PLANNING THOSE EQUIPMENT FUNDRAISERS!!! You're doing great!! Keep up the good work! John

C-Team: Have them do a working rehearsal for you 1 week before first Ordeal weekend. Make sure the C-Team chairman praises what's done right, and excoriates anyone who has punted learning their lines. The object of the exercise is a ceremony that matters to the Candidates. It's hard to do that when Mateu is doing dabidadabida on the prayer. Same goes for the Brotherhood Ceremony. They must have it cold. Ask them this: Would they want to present their ceremony as is if the National Chief of OA and the Chief Scout Executive were going to attend the next ceremony? This is "very best" level of effort. Sorry, young Sir, but having been a youth Arrowman myself, lo, those years ago, this is an area I feel exceptionally passionately about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Area 2: Tap-Outs/Callouts/whatever they are this week. I've seen the modern call-out done at a district roundtable. It was wimpy. I was grabbed by my Scout belt and run down from a Camporee Campfire to the ring, and to a member of C-Team. Got a good thumping, 3 followed by 1 and 2. Yeah, I know your generation can't do it this way anymore, but make sure whatever you do to start the Candidate down the trail makes a difference for him. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3) Who's your Ordeal Master? Yeah, I know that's an obsolete term. He needs to make sure the Elangomats understand their first task is safety of the Candidates. One time the Candidates were weed-whacking wiht old-fashioned scythes... and no one was checking their bloodlines. It's really, really tough to do the Ordeal Ceremony for a Candidate in their hospital room while they're recovering from 20 stitches... Key point: Whoever is your Elangomat chairman needs to team up 18-20 year olds who will be responsible for the quality of the work and the safety of the work with the 13-14 year olds who are 1st time Elangomats. You can see in other threads where we talk about adults backing off. Let your adult Elangomats be reinforcement when the adult Candidate doesn't understand the youth member is in charge! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All this said... these are particulars from my own experience. May I more respectfully suggest you invite your Adviser and Associate Adviser to dinner, and ask them for input. They have a clear idea for what right looks like on your own home ground. Enjoy your service as Chief. ICS!

Just remember, if Unc says you're rich now,.... Hil-Oba-ohn will take more from you when he/she/it takes office.

Enjoy your year of service This would be one thing to put in your continuity notebook for the next Chief of the Lodge. More importantly than sitting the Executive Board, make sure your clearly state your vision and your standards to your LEC. Spend a lot of time with your Reservation Ranger, make sure the Ordeal and Brotherhood service projects are not make-work. ... Oh, and have someone with a radio or cellphone at each ceremony. The volunteers who are cooking Cracker Barrel in the dining hall really would like to be in the loop on TIMING! ICS

Call the General... General Steel... they make great buildings. Look, this isn't rocket science. The politicians in Philadelphia have an agenda. Scouting doesn't fit their agenda. Let's hope the local Council finds an appropriate new home, and to H### with Philadelphia. After all, as the song goes... It's Hot as H### in Philadelphia! Someone ought to open up a window!

Beavah wrote in part... Learning takes time and practice. Learning takes a small bit of "telling" and information "delivery", and a lot of coaching, and a lot of encouragement, and a lot of practice and developin' experience. Yeh know. What we do with kids every day, eh? YEA, VERILY!!! Ed... yes, but I think one of the vital points is right in Beavah's post. Too much "hand wave huzzah" and the new person is a trained leader. I've been at this for eight years now, and I will gladly admit there's a long, long way to go in my Scouting education I think back to when I retook BSA lifeguard a few years back. For 10 days, my program hours were spent at the pool, learning skills, practicing skills, and doing some book stuff... but the majority of my time was hands-on.

1) If a youth is highly motivated, a 13 year old Eagle is about the floor age. It takes a rock bottom 16 months from Star BOR to eligibility for the Eagle BOR. IMO, either the young man is a prodigy (and that is both possible and has happened) or the Eagle belongs to someone else. 2) 14 year old is probably the low end of the due course range. I've seen far more 15/16/17 year olds earn Eagle. It's not about the chronological age. It's about the young man, doing the work, learning the skills, discovering the processes. It can be a race, but the best Eagles I've seen have made it a journey. My thoughts.

What Beavah said, le Voyageur. John

My opinion... When adults model patrols, it should be a training environment away from the youth. By exception only should Scouts see us participating in the Grand Game. When we adults are in camp as Scouters to the youth, we should be far off to one side, far enough from the youth that they have freedom to do the Grand Game, and close enough that we can provide resources if asked. If we don't know how to cooperate, work nice, and honor the Scout Law in our daily (and Scouting) lives, we have no business being Scouters.

I'm with Eamonn. Please, explain...

The Buckeyes lost to LSU and are out of the picture. B, thanks for the name of the model. I've used it for 30 years (it was introduced way back in introduction to leadership in 3d year ROTC), but I never bothered to learn the name of it. The fourth quadrant of the model is low direction, low support. The subordinate is pretty fully trained and is performing. His leader really intervenes only with new tasks. Support (encouragement) is needed because men need encouragement, but even it can be dialed way, way back. In a perfect world, you get to the point where General Schwarzkopf was when he commanded his infantry brigade at Fort Lewis: His division CG said "These are the things I expect your command to do well. Beyond that, you don't need me telling you how to do your job." In simple English, the CG was.... HANDS OFF. J.