John-in-KC

It's Me, It may be weak, but it's mine. Since EagleSon aged out of the Boy Scouting youth program last spring, I have a tiny bit greater freedom in choosing where and how I will serve the Grand Game. When he's off to college next year, I have a lot more freedom! I can set my own terms on where and how I serve, within the broad limits of the Scouting road...

EagleSon had his ECOH with 5 others. (A sixth was scheduled, but didn't show). How the two young men design the ECOH is their own call The good news is you're not really adding time to the program. Our boys did: Flag, Oath and Law (from Scouts in their home Troop) Invocation (Distinguished Service Cross winner retired Colonel and Eagle Scout) Their once SM and current Crew Advisor was MC and handled introductions. One Eagle Scout/Scouter the boys knew well spoke about what an Eagle was. Another Eagle Scout/Scouter who was the Troops resident Grandpa (and Chieftain of the Tribe of Mic-o-Say) did the charge and gave them their Tribal Eagle Coups for their lanyard. Moms/Dads gave them their medals/neckerchiefs. Young men got up and gave their thank you speeches. Advisor gave the minute. We were done. All told, less than 90 minutes. One of the parents made the invitations on their own PC/printer, another made the program on PC/printer/office xerox. HTH.

Gern, Breathe in................. Exhale..................... Repeat!

Stosh, I'll absolutely agree. To my way of thinking, the adult area should be just far enough offset from the youth that we're not constantly watching them. That can be as little as 50 or as much as 200 yards apart, site dependent.

You might check with some of the Indian regalia firms... I've done well by Crazy Crow...

That's because it's not you and Merlyn doing the banter this time, Ed...

Calico, Thanks. Interesting. Curious, though: In our Council, we send our District Cub Day Camp Directors and PDs to National Camp School. When we set up and prep for camp, much of the Director's time is spent organizing his notebooks for the Camp Inspection, and the tabs in our books come from the pages of the National Camp Standards... Probably, as you said, it's that the Council is leveraging a product in place... Again, thanks.

BA, For reasons I discussed offlist with Eamonn, and will not do so here... Scouters can and should as a team when supporting Scouts on site, be it LT camp or a weekend. If adults start calling themselves Patrols, getting flags, doing cheers, then they are crossing the boundary of being support to the youth program members and are trying to vicariously participate in the YOUTH PROGRAM. I will not fight my way out of that accusation ever again. There is no way in Hell I will participate in a Troop where the adults pretend to be youth. I have my own private reasons for this. I trust I've made my position as clear as it will ever be.

E, Thanks. I think one challenge is here on this board, not to mention Scouts-L, we talk, a lot, about things which are broke. We forget the great, great number of units that are doing pretty well. Not perfectly, but well. Certainly young men and women are coming to adulthood understanding why we had them in Scouting. That's a really good thing.

mol Two other options for you... 1) Call your District or Council Advancement Chairman... see what guidance he/she has been given. 2) Call your Council; one of the Professionals is the Staff Adviser to the Council Advancement Chairman.

Here's my joy. I'm divorced. I get to claim the exemption every other year; this was to be my year. When it comes to his bed-down, though, she's the residential parent. The last time around the IRS based the child's rebate on who was the residential parent. I had to renegotiate the exemption schedule. Care to bet that is what will happen again? That means I get to re-negotiate the exemption schedule, again. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I'm not an attorney. My brother is (in Fairfax County, VA, in fact... but he's a contracts and acquisitions guy)... Beavah gave two good and true pieces of advice: 1) He gave us the US Dept of HHS child welfare website. Further, Scoutldr gave us a charitable operating under US DOJ grant. 2) If you have a question, a local attorney, currently licensed, will be glad to consult. I think you will find most of the 308 BSA Councils have access to one who is either retained or volunteers professional skills. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From me: 3) If you don't trust an attorney, and still have a question, consult your local child endangerment reporting agency! They'll be glad to educate. 4) Finally, since I believe every SE is a mandatory reporter, you can always ask them what their obligations are in their State or local jurisdiction. Come on folks, let's get some common sense going here. I don't always agree with Beavah, but connect the dots guys... he has easy access to US District Court filings... as though he was licensed to practice the profession. He tends at times to warn people he's not giving bottom line legal advice... as though he's a practicioner of the profession. I'm just a dumb old artilleryman, and I can connect the dots. Getting back to the topic at hand, I hope Cheffy does have that call with a certain Scouts' parents...

This is for Beavah, or someone like him, who has actually been on a Camp Visitation Team: BSA National Camp Standards apply to Council owned and operated camping programs, from District Day Camps to discrete camp programs on Scout Reservations (Boy Scout Camp, Webelos Camp, Venturing LT program and so on). Got that. Do NCS apply when a Council sponsored activity is on Scout property (such as NYLT or an OA induction weekend) but is not operating during the camping season? If not, what camp safety guidelines cover those operations? Thanks in advance.

E, Since you have a copy to hand, would you grab the piece, if any, which describes the relationship between the the Council, the Chartered Partner, and the unit itself? Thank you, in advance As to what you wrote, what I see is: 1) Commissioners are volunteers, not paid staff. 2) Commissioners, in each of their jobs, are the QA/QC mechanism for program delivery. Now, let's go back to what you and Beavah have both lamented in other threads here: We don't have enough volunteers doing the work of the Commissioner's Service. Let's also go back to that wonderful training module: What is a Commissioner? I've heard it enough times: Commish are guests in and friends of the unit, they provide description, not prescription. Another item my shop teacher Mr Dunlap taught me: Your machine works right only if it's designed correctly, all the parts are present, and all the parts are put together correctly.

I actually do not like "feeder" relationships. Parents know their boys and should be able to make the determination of what Troop works best for each kid. Long, long ago, my brother went to Troop 320, but when it was my turn, my parents put me in Troop 110. As others will note, I am a strong advocate of deploying Den Chiefs from Troops back to Packs throughout the Cub lifecycle. A good Den Chief is one of the best recuiting tools a Troop has. I'm also an advocate of having an ASM in each Troop have the specific mission of being Cub/Boy coordinator. He works with area Packs and their Dens, keeping his ears open. He keeps a weather eye on the Den Chiefs. Too Much Fun is Never Enough? Remember that? I really believe that when it comes to Cub-Boy transition, too much information is rarely enough.

I am not on the ground. I am working solely from the information you gave me. Let's make this real simple: Assuming the young man you mention is Trustworthy, the incident itself, as well as Scoutmaster Dad's behaviors with his own son and comments to the Troop, are potentially Youth Protection violations. I'd recommend four things: 1) EagleCandidate Mom/Dad make an immediate appointment with the Scout Executive. Police up the EagleCandidate and head for Council. 2) Parents of the Eagle Candidate, who claims he is the eyewitness and earwitness, need to inform the Chartered Organization Representative. Tell the COR that the parents are taking the boy to the local Scout Executive. I would do this whilst enroute, or while waiting for the appointment to begin. 3) THEN, the parents and the young man keep that appointment with the SE. 4) Young man and parents need to plan to find a new Troop. This level of incident approaches burning the bridges. Assuming the truthfulness, these are serious allegations, and need to be dealt with using appropriate agencies. I assume there has been two-deep leadership on outings which can back up what EagleCandidate says. I further assume there are other youth who will back up in all forthrightness what EagleCandidate says. Now, all that said: If you have any doubts of the truthfulness from EagleCandidate, then his Mom/Dad, as parents, need to have a long cup of coffee visit with the SM. I am assuming truthfulness of what I read here.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

MOL, On previous changes to Requirements #33215 National gave explicit guidance on implementing a requirement for a Scout already in the program. This time, it didn't happen. Further, either Requirements or Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 gives the broad-brush standing guidance on what a Scout does when the MB reqruirements shift whilst he's doing it (you're right though in describing what happens). There have been previous incremental changes to basic rank requirements. Until this change, as I said before, we got instructions; this time we didn't. To me, I infer that the requirement changed effective 1 January with no further transition. If you weren't S-T-2-1, then the requirement was an add-on to your task list. Period. We had an extensive discussion of this issue when the National Advancement Committee rolled out the changes. Has anyone out there received any other implementing guidance beyond my inference??? http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=174698

Stosh, The difference is fundamental. No one, from B-P forward, ever meant for Cubs to operate without direct leadership of adults. The Den Method is nothing like the BSA Patrol Method. Further, the Family Method demands direct adult involvement in the growth of the Cub: 2. The Den Boys like to belong to a group. The den is the place where boys learn new skills and develop interests in new things. They have fun in den meetings, during indoor and outdoor activities, and on field trips. As part of a small group of six to eight boys, they are able to learn sportsmanship and good citizenship. They learn how to get along with others. They learn how to do their best, not just for themselves but also for the den. 4. Family Involvement Family involvement is an essential part of Cub Scouting. When we speak of parents or families, we are not referring to any particular family structure. Some boys live with two parents, some live with one parent, some have foster parents, and some live with other relatives or guardians. Whoever a boy calls his family is his family in Cub Scouting. Source: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/pandm.html (Purposes and Methods of Cub Scouting) Contrast those with: The Patrol Method Patrols are the building blocks of a Boy Scout troop. A patrol is a small group of boys who are similar in age, development, and interests. Working together as a team, patrol members share the responsibility for the patrol's success. They gain confidence by serving in positions of patrol leadership. All patrol members enjoy the friendship, sense of belonging, and achievements of the patrol and of each of its members. Source: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/34307/patrol.html The cooperative aspect of the Patrol is orders of magnitude pumped up from the Den. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remember, you have 1 direct contact adult program person (minimum) for every 8 Cubs by Scouting plan... the DL. When you internet recharter, ScoutNet will scrub for the right number of program people, as well as the BSA minimum number of Committee people.

Barry, First of all, there is no money. There are two ways to make this rebate: Advance it against Tax Year 2008 filings, or add it to the deficit. Frankly, neither of those appeal to me. (Edit to add: I dislike the advance more, though). I'm a conservative (gee, isn't that a BFFO). I know we need to find our way out of the subprime mess, and we need to restore confidence in our markets, but an advance isn't the way to do it.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Our C-Teams over the past few years have made more than they have bought. It lowers costs, teaches Arrowmen of youth and advisor age arts/crafts skills, and inspires youth to care for the gear. My two cents. ICS

Anecdote on refusing Webelos: There were two Web II dens in our Pack in Y2K. Same DL/ADL, but dens met different days (supporting kids school schedules). Kids had been together since Tigers, parents were supportive, attrition had been nil. The 16 kids wanted to go into a Troop together, and grow up together. 4 different area Troops said "we cannot accommodate that much growth. We'll take 3 or you can go somewhere else." That didn't sit at all with the group parents. Those units lost the kids altogether. The WDL, an Eagle Scout from his own youth, found an Chartered Partner and formed a new Troop. Had he not, those kids would have been lost to Boy Scouting. A second order consequence... two of those Troops, deprived of their normal gain lifeblood, had operational troubles 3 years later when their kids of leadership age were not in the pipeline. In fact, in our area, we've since had 3 of the 4 troops close shop. Rejecting Webelos may help DE's make their tasks of building units, but other folks need to look at area demographics and see if adding "that next troop" makes sense.

I just wrote my Congresscritters... simple message: Dear Senator/Representative (sent to Bond, McCaskill/Graves, individualized) As your Constituent, How we fix the mess caused by US banking center banks overextending themselves in the subprime mortgage market matters to me. I have an IRA position in several banking center banks. I've seen the hit to my retirement accounts. I've seen the questions of confidence in the US markets rendered by market pricings these past few days. How you, as one of my two Senators, decide to intervene and stimulate the national economy matters to me. While Republican and conservative, income redistribution feels, if you will "hokey." Aiding folks who are losing employment as a result of this mess feels helpful. Priming the production lines where the US Government can feels helpful. Allow me to be very plain: If you expect my vote in your next election cycle, do not support making the "economic stimulus" an advance of my 2008 Tax Year refund. Make it a one time reduction of Tax Year 2007 tax rates, or find another means. THIS IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO ME THAT IS A VOTING CRITERION FOR YOU. Please pass along to the Negotiators and Appropriators: Have you considered a stimulus of additional Food Stamps to those entitled (and who need it), or surging DOD orders to factories for equipment wearing out in the Global War On Terrorism? Thank you, John ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, I know the newsies have reported pumping up Food Stamps is off the table.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

If we're talking policy... From what I've seen, there is no transition period. If the Scout was not BOR on 31 December, the new requirement is part of the matrix. If we're talking what you submit to Council... Advancement Reports are reports of attained rank. If a SM/CC/Adv Coord chooses to deviate from policy, they need to look to themselves and the Scout Oath and Law. Even so, Council will record what you submit, either on Internet Advancement or in hardcopy.

First Aid MB Pamphlet from Boy Scouts... Boy Scout Handbook Fieldbook Look at the CS First Aid tasks, and leverage these. Further, the NIH Medline website has information, and is a "link of links" http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/firstaid.html One of the sites the NIH points to is kidshealth.org... http://kidshealth.org/kid/watch/

I'll do a Troop D model... We did as few Eagle Required MBs in-house as we possibly could. We sent folks outward, so they learned how to make appointments, how to keep appointments, how to work outside their comfort zone. Bob, that's the issue. My son and I, even younger, interacted daily. He knows how to push my buttons, and I his. Having the chance to work with others is the opportunity I wanted for him!