John-in-KC

OGE, I think it comes down to this: Beavah's approach to Scouting is what the majority of units and people take. They take it, imo, because there are lots of systemic problems above the direct contact leader. If I had to rank order the challenges "behind the scenes," they are: 1) Pressure on Professional Service to sell new Chartered Partners and units. 2) Chartered Partners who don't really care about what they signed and why they signed it. 3) A Commissioner Service which cannot attract and retain enough volunteers to meet the Scouting side of the contract (unit service) to the units in the field. 4) A long and hard look at the leader outdoor training curriculum, which works forward from an assumption of no outdoors experience. I do think the majority of Americans no longer know what the real outdoors is. 5) A weak Membership Agreement for Scouters which doesn't explicitly say "I commit to training myself for the tasks I will undertake."** 6) As a result of 1-5, the sad statistic that fewer than 1 in 3 Scouters has both the skills and the BSA specific methods to implement them. ** Please note: As an Army officer, much of my service was spent reading documents from on high. Quite often, many tasks were specified... clearly stated. We didn't spend much time analyzing the mission for these; rather, we spent huge amounts of energy divining the "implied tasks"... In other words: The order says we have to do THIS, but to get to THIS we have to do THAT and THAT and THAT. Scouting is not the Armed Forces. The fewer tasks are hidden, the better all will be. IMO, National needs to make the commitment to training an explicit condition of volunteering. Will it help? Dunno. Will it hurt? Probably not.

Ed, I think you and I are in pretty darn close agreement! John

The attitude that training matters has to start at the top of the ownership chain, and work its way down to the volunteers in direct contact. If the DE, District Chair, and District Commish (through the UCs) are not regularly encouraging the IH/COR of the Chartered Partners to support training in their units, then all the flagellation we do won't be worth diddly. Of course, that means that those who allegedly pride themselves on being Commissioners (that means you BW) need to admit they have ownership of a share of the problem. The problem is systemic and holistic; so the fixes must also be.

Back when WWLS was a little station (80s) I used to listen to it. I remember the OU folks whining about the Aggies. EagleSon came up with new words for Boomer Sooner, when the "Pride of Oklahoma" marching band plays it... This is the ...eeee Only FIGHT SONG That we knooo.. hoooooo How to Play....aaaaayyy!

Not the day to be selling stock. I've bought a couple of issues from the panickers. I know this much... I hold IRA positions in a couple of banking center banks. Those which have been part of the subprime mess are going to get a "Withhold all" vote for the boards of directors. Further, anything the directors recommend yes ... gets a no. Investor proposals? Those I reserve the right to vote what I think is the best interest of the firm. That means I may accept Director's recommendations.

Barry, MBO: Management by objective MBE: Management by exception OMM: One Minute Management BKD: Be-Know-Do Can you guess PIAPT? "... and a Partridge In A Pear Tree?" Have a great MIZ-ZOU day, Barry! Unlike KU, OU beat the Tigers, fair and square. John

I wasn't eligible for the second rebate, for some reason or other. I forget why. If we really want "fast" economic kick, prime the pump with some factory orders, Uncle...

Having spent my professional life in MBO, MBO, OMM, BKD, PIAPT We are talking about boys. Boys can, do, and will require a certain level of adult leadership. I like using the 4 quadrant model for skills/processes mastery. Anyone in Quadrants 1 and 2 will be high direction, anyone in quadrant 3 will be low direction, and anyone in quadrant 4 will be able to approach nearly no direction. Each time a Troop assembles a new leadership team, we will go through some phase of team-building dynamics again. I don't care if it's a Scout Troop, a Navy ship, an artillery battery, or a law firm... the person in charge's personality does and will influence the group dynamic... as will the personalities of the other folks on the leadership team. Look, we're all adults here; we all work in the real world. We all have bosses. When we put on the Scout uniform, our job is to help the kids by determining what the right level of guidance is, and then helping the youth master the skills of planning/coordinating/implementing/following up such that we can dial that level of guidance ever closer to hands off. My two cents.

LH, Please allow me to clarify. Our Council does not use patrol cooking. That's a decision which dates back to when H Roe Bartle was the SE (mind you, he retired from BSA to be they Mayor of Kansas City in 1953). SFAICT that decision will not be revisited in the coming millenium. It is cast in titanium. For staffing at both our Scout reservations, our dining hall cooks are contracted out. The cooks are the long pole in the tent, as I understand Missouri and Kansas healt codes. We do have youth staff working from the trash cans through the dishwasher. They can handle trays from the warmers to the serving trays for the Scout table waiters passing through. To me, the challenge is that COOKING MB is not, and hasn't been for quite a few years, on the Eagle Required list. It was when I was a youth member. A Scout right now needs to cook a total of 10 meals (+/-) from TF to Eagle to meet his rank and Camping MB requirements. The weekend camping program pretty well satisfies that. Then again, I'm divorced, and using a stove, oven, and assorted kitchen tools keeps my costs down. I personally consider cooking in the essential life skills tent that Personal Management, Family Life, Swimming/Cycling/Hiking and First Aid are! But I could be wrong...

EagleSon is accepted at Mizzou next year. If it doesn't go there, it'll go to an anticipated trip to PTC. With Ob-Hil-hn Tho-gui-cai-ney out shilling the streets, I won't count on it before it's signed, sealed and delivered though... The 2008 Presidential Candidates: "...and they're all made out of tickytack, and they all look just the same..." John who is terribly cynical at the moment.

Fred, Cool enough. Crew21 Advisor Yeah, Be---Know---Do. There is, however, a difference in the goal of the Army and the goal of Scouting. Army doctrine for training the individual soldier, for collective training of units, is designed to take the individual and mold him to an element in a team. I remember one of my Brigade commanders, now MG (Ret) Fred Marty... who talked about SOLDIERIZATION... it's a blended word, but it means the work we do to socialize soldiers into complete team players in all instances. Yes, the Army values initiative and judgment, but we expect everybody to become a round peg which fits in a round hole. I have a problem with that when I try to develop 11 -14 year olds. There is great value in teamwork, there is also great value in the individual fruits of our labors. hotdesk, I think you need to read this, good Sir: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf That you may deviate in execution is one thing. That you can make identification level knowledge of the process is another.

OGE, Some units have wonderful chartered partners. Yours is an example. Some units have less than wonderful chartered partners. Lisa's is an example. There are a bunch of root causes. Some are in the province of the professional service; some in the hands of volunteers. - When was the last time your IH/COR got their annual sit-down with the DE? He's supposed to pay a service call on the chartered partner as part of the annual charter process? - How much pressure is on the DE's to find new chartered partners and establish new units each year? Anecdotally, a lot. Raises seem to matter not on quality of service, but on quantity of sales for the Professional Service. - How often does a UC pay a visit not only to his units, but also to the Chartered Partner? When was the last time, at Charter renewal, anyone challenged the chartered partner to live up to their side of the contract? BW has talked recently, lots about training. I've been a COR; I'm trained as a COR. I know more than a few CORs who are untrained. BW's rubric of training starts at the IH and the COR. That is not a function of the SM, CM, CCs or anyone else in direct contact positions; inculcating the example of "taking the right training" starts at the District Chairman encouraging the IH/COR to do the right thing. To me, it's harder to talk the talk of training for direct contact volunteers if the folks who are buying Scouting from the local council don't walk the walk. To close, OGE, BSA is a "corporate" democracy at the Council level. The Chartered Partners and the Members at large are the shareholders. They get one opportunity each year, and then the volunteers who are the corporate officers, working with the SE, have authority delegated to them.

Milwscout, Congratulations on being chief of your Lodge. May you have good times making great things happen for yourger Scouts who enter the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. I think, before I set up a Council Exec Board shirt, one question to the President: "Do you intend that I stay on the Council Exec Board after I step down as Lodge Chief?" If he says yes, get a shirt. If he says no, ask "would you mind if I wear my unit shirt for the year?" Since I don't know your Council, there's one other question: Does your Exec Board meet in uniform? In my Council, most exec Board members are coming from their day jobs, and meet in coat/tie.

LH, Because of State Health Codes where I serve, our Council contracts out foodservice. At one camp, the manager of the contract is, herself, a Vigil Honor OA member and the mom of an Eagle. She's able to attract some pretty good school cafeteria cooks as well as two CIA trained shift leaders. At the other camp, it's an annual struggle to find folks with current TB tine tests, let alone be qualified food handlers. The area is a major recreation area, and lots of restaurants open "for the season"... they pay more, bluntly. BTW, again because of health codes, under 18s cannot be part of food preparation in the DH kitchens... reservation staff does the major cleanup.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Beavah, I have a Scouter friend. He's a Wood Badger, and in his current incarnation, is the Reservation Director for a neighboring Council's Scout Camp. He runs Scout Camp, Webelos Camp, and Council NYLT during his summers. As his major ticket item, he implemented JLT in his Troop, and offered the experience to other area Troops which didn't have the resources to do the job well. His program runs so well that his District training committee leverages the weekend and does IOLS right alongside the youth. In his former day job, he was chief educational psychologist for an area school district. When TLT rolled out, I asked him his professional evaluation of it as compared to the Unit JLT package. He made short work of slicing and dicing TLT. He said "If you can find a copy of Unit JLT and maintain it, do so. It is educationally and psychologically better for youth than TLT." No, I didn't ask for the "whys." I asked for his evaluation. He gave it to me.

As a Scout, I did unit level cooking during LT camp experiences. As a first year Scout (1968), the first year kids went to Scout Camp, the older ones onto the trail. We drew foods from the Commissary, we cooked. As a second-fourth year Scout, I was out on a backpacking trail. We not only cooked,we carried our food. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As an adult, my Council runs dining hall camps. Period. I'm not sure I like it, but I also have a prejuidice against Cooking MB not being in the Eagle Required list as it was in my era! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here's my question: - Fewer cooks (only a small cookstaff for the staff). - Fewer facilities (Benches, tables, do require repair. Silverware wears out. Even melamine eventually becomes brittle and breaks). - Units provide own cook gear in unit cooking camps, or rent it. Why would dining hall be lower cost per person than unit cooking?

HFE said: "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball or dye) at any individual is unauthorized." Indirect fire (including mortar fire and Howitzers) is perfectly acceptable. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek.) Have you seen the latest online version of G2SS? Cannons ands Large-Bore Artillery Units are not authorized, under any circumstances, to use a cannon or any other large-bore artillery device. Boldface denotes policy. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss08.html

Trev, It's also important to close out the relationship with the current Chartered Partner on an up-note. Chartered Partners are the owners of record of the property and the accounts of the unit. You can have a situation where the people shift, but not the STUFF. Not knowing the particulars of your community, I would recommend talking to the American Legion and the VFW. Both have National level mandates to pick up Scouting charters where other partners want to drop them. Look for opportunities to make the relationship a win/win over time. Let us know how this turns out my friend John

OGE wrote, in part: I think it might be time to require the CO's to be present at the Annual Meeting. I mean, every 365 days or so, a representative of the CO has to show up to see who is running the program from the Council level. Is that too much to ask? So much power is in the hands of the CO's and I am not sure all that many realize or care to exercise it. OGE, I think that is a superb idea. Contract, in the Charter, that the IH/COR attends the annual business meeting. Of course, it's only a start, but any start is a good start.

dScouter15, I'm not a medical person, but have friends who are Scout Reservation physicians and nurse in my Council. I would contact the Council Surgeon (many Councils have a volunteer physician on the health and safety committee), and ask to spend some time with him, walking through the Council's medical protocols. I would also ask the Reservation Ranger or the Reservation Director for a copy of the National Camp Standards as they pertain to medical lodge operations. You have to know and accept... - What the National Camp Standards are. - What implementing protocols your Council has. - How the protocols define your job as a health officer. BTW, welcome to the Forums. Let us know how you decide.

To all, Believe it or not, this thread has helped me set my vision for further service in Scouting. I like FScouter's road metaphor. Roads have engineering criteria... At one viewpoint, we have BW's interpretation. At a different viewpoint, we have B's interpretation. My vision and interpretation are settling closer to B's than to BW's, but not identical. I'm off to Scout Camp. Workday's tomorrow, and there is ice storm damage to clean up, and cots to repair for the season. It's time for me to remember that the youth we enroll are the reason all of us come together Outta here.

Dream, Dream, Dream, Dream... All I want to do... is dreaaaaaaammmm, dream dream dream... Any is a pretty broad restriction. I think it covers laser tag, sadly. Barry, what does your Council's H&S guy/gal say?

Pappy, welcome, great story.

Bob, Your missive identified the meat of the issue: "I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the rules and regulations, of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council. Yet... As you note, and as others note, our Commissioner service is understaffed (we can't find enough volunteers) to meet its tasks. What Commissioner service we have is not always willing to execute its mandated tasks. The ADC supporting my Chartered Partner told my IH "I have no UCs to support you and I can visit each of your units only once this coming year." Beavah hit it square: It comes down to trust. The issue I have is at what point do we say "You've earned trust." I come from the military; trust isn't free... it's earned, and it can be lost. B, that's perhaps the one exception I take with your portion of this colloquy. BW, if I understand what you wrote correctly, your premise is "I volunteer to have absolutely comply." That's different from "I volunteer, will use the materials in the most appropriate way for my circumstances, but reserve the right to deviate left and right of the centerline when my circumstances necessitate it." From observation, I think the last is what actually happens in the field. Lisabob, in her membership thread, discussed where a Council deviated on enrolling an underage youth to a particular program, and did so willingly. I post in the OA forum a fair bit about how my Council and a neighboring one use the Tribe of Mic-o-Say as a Scouting Honor Society (and in one Council, not even having an OA Lodge). That's a thought-through and decided-upon deviation from the centerline. So, I will keep muddling along in my unit-serving position and my District position. I will keep learning, both in Scouting training packages and in other ways, to improve myself, the units I serve, and the greater good. ... and I will accept that units will do their best to implement the Aims, but may not necessarily fully implement all the Methods of their Scouting program.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

No, Bob, NOT SELECTION OF QUALITY PEOPLE. That was an implied task. Systemic shorfall: NEW VOLUNTEERS AGREEING TO TAKE TRAINING TO AN IDENTIFIABLE PROFICIENCY LEVEL FOR THEIR PROGRAM. We don't contract, if you will, with the new volunteers. Training is not a condition of adult membership. As far as the how... 1) Add a basic duty to the Commissioner Service: Collaterally serve as instructor pool for the District Training Committee. National mandates, as a CONDITION OF CHARTERING THE LOCAL COUNCIL, that all UC and ADC slots be filled with Commissioner Key/Arrowhead Honor completed Commissioners. Further mandate 1 Commissioner in training for every 5 commissioners in service. See this form http://www.scouting.org/forms/34169/63.pdf 2) National/Council adds instructional material presentation competency a condition of earning Commissioner's Key/Arrowhead Honor (radically increase pool of available instructors). National/Council requires each Commissioner to be subject matter competent in at least two leader specific training modules. This will add tasks to earning the Commissioner's key/Arrowhead honor. 3) Create both Braille/sound and "book only" versions of all classroom content for special needs Scouters. 4) Move Cub and Boy YP to online and special needs only. Scouters without PCs can go to the local school or library. 5) Move Fast Start for all 3 programs to online and special needs only. 6) Make NLE available virtually on demand. New Leader Essentials becomes available online. National mandates each Council to present NLE monthly as a portion of District RT in all Districts. 7) All Cub Scout leader specific modules available at least monthly in each district of each council (our SE mandates each district present CS LS modules weekly during the fall recruiting season). All Cub Scout leader specific modules (except BALOO) made available online as well. 8) National revises entire outdoor skills acquisition and outdoor leader training curriculum. Develop products which first certify outdoor competency of volunteers at age appropriate leader level, then and only then integrates use of the patrol method in presenting outdoor skills to youth. My estimate here is Councils will need to offer more than 1 outdoor education experience each non-holiday weekend of the year. 9) All Boy Scout leader specific training modules available at least quarterly in each district of each council. All classroom based Boy Scout leader specific modules made available online as a training supplement/reinforcement. 10) As I said, SUSTAIN the District RT. 11) Make Venturing leader specific training an "on-request" course. The ratio I see of new Crews to new Troops to New Packs does not seem to justify scheduled events yet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From where we are now, what does this represent? 6) This is at least a four-fold increase for most districts that I've observed. 7) This is a three-fold increase in training frequency for most districts I've observed. 9) This is a doubling in training frequency for most districts I've observed. Can existing District training operating committees handle the load? Heck, no. That's why I posit the Commssioner service gain an additional duty of being an instructor pool.