John-in-KC

Welcome to the Forums... It looks like, from here, you're doing the right things in trying to educate and coach. Granted, we only have your view of things. What you choose to do comes at two levels ... one for you, and one for your son: - Is he having fun and learning from Scouting in this Troop? If he is, the time is "not yet" to forego this Troop. If he is no longer having fun, then it's time to have him look for the transfer. - Have you decided that education of the new SM and the new CC isn't going to enable change to using the 8 Methods? If so, when you choose to move your son, get the transfer dealt with, then ask for a cup of coffee with the COR and the Unit Commissioner. Explain... quietly, rationally, logically, the challenges which brought you to a transfer. If possible, document each challenge. - Finally, when you get to your sons' new Troop, volunteer to be a Member of Committee until you're a known entity. Let your work gain a new reputation. If anyone confronts you about the old Troop, simply say: "Please consult the COR at Brand X Chartered Partner." Now, if you're not yet at the point of no return, keep plugging at educating the 8 Methods... take your new SM to Roundtable, get her in a conversation with a SM who you know runs a good shop. Let him help dissuade her.

At least it's a go-watch, instead of a "come and participate"... sigh We're worried about paintball, and yet things like this and sod-surfing (also from Georgia...) Can anyone tell me when common sense left the planet?

I still remember sitting down with my TG... "I think you understand John, this ticket is only the beginning..." Yep, he was right... The beads are a process, not an event...

anarchist, There is always the option of CC and SM visiting COR and/or IH, and explaining why they do not want to re-charter a Scouter. She can be told "Thank you for your service," and given a non-youth-contact position... or she can be told she will not be rechartered. Returning to the original conversation: The best way to cut this particular pie is to make sure the SM understands the POR system when he takes over, and works with his ASMs, SPLs, and the right committee members, over time, to make it happen. The Scribe, for just one example, collects attendance, mileage, service hour (whatever) info for meetings and campouts and forwards it to the membership/advancement person on the Committee. Committee person contacts SM and says "What a great job Jim is doing." SM gives feedback to the kid. OTOH, Committee person calls SM and asks "where's my info?" SM investigates, finds Jim the Scribe has it, but has no way to get it to the Committee person. Bottleneck resolved, kid has been doing his job. Still another, same as above, but kids hasn't been doing the work. Time for some coaching about expectations, and some SMkid goal-setting. The system can work, if we all do out parts. BUT!, IMO, if we adults don't do our part, don't counsel, don't mentor, don't set and give feedback on expectations, well, then we are approaching giving the Scouts social promotions. My thoughts.

One hard limit I've not seen here, and it's sort of stupid IMO, is driving. We let Venturers drive themselves and others to meetings and activities. We don't let Boy Scout youth program members drive themselves, let alone others, to anything. B, in turn, I have a question for you: I agree, I think our youth members could do most of the adult paperwork of a unit, including managing the records databases... Now, what is the law, both Federal and your local jurisdiction, on privacy, and minors being responsible for maintaining privacy? What's their exposure if their PC gets hacked into and the database is copied out? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I do like what wingnut said, though: The SM and the ASMs and the kids got to have the fun. A lot of my Scouting has been in front of PC, supporting their efforts, or running a business meeting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`` That leads to a broad question for the group: How much time exposure do we want to add to the Scouting experience by giving them increasing levels of the unit functions? With AP, dual credit, athletics, thespians, choir, bands, and clubs, what is the tipping point where the young man says "not fun?" I can do scut work because I see the rewards for the downline generation. Granted, that's an attitude we want to cultivate in the youth, but where should the line be drawn???

EagleSon was Star the first year he was eligible to staff district day camp. He worked as J-staff for 40 hours. He requested in advance and then reported 6 hours of that time to his Scoutmaster for service time. He had a Confirmation service obligation to his church of 30 hours. He claimed that too. The event: Yes, touched twice. The HOURS... only once. More than that, his service record continues strong. He'll serve his 3d season as Camp Staff this year. In general, I like to see lots more hours and lots more events than the minimum. When I talk to youth and parents alike I talk about building a lifelong habit of service to others.

ally, The additional information you've given us about leadership structure is a major relief. Thank you, we can only go on what we read here. I've worked as a program staffer both cooking and wood craft. In both cases, I built up a 5 year rotation of projects. The youth used the same techniques each year, but the product was different: - Wood: -- Stepstool -- Toolbox -- Birdhouse -- Windvane & "anemometer" (propeller indicated relative speed/force) -- Picture frame - Cooking -- Biscuit on a stick & Dutch Oven Dump Cake -- 'Smores and hot dogs from the grill (caution... sugar highs!!) -- Foil dinners -- Hobo stews (caution ... brown meat in advance)

I'd have the Troop OATR explain to the SM & the MBC concerned the tasks of the Ordeal, then crosswalk the WS MB requirement. I think the MB Counselor will find the right conclusion. For me, it's a no brainer, the Ordeal night out does not meet the requirement.

Who will pay for the Commercial Driver's Licenses and their training? CDL's aren't cheap, and imo, this is not a burden the youth should absorb? Have you priced the insurance for a bus? It will come under the auspices of the Chartered Partner as the permanent entity (remember Scouting is licensed year to year). Who will pick up the tab for insurance? Again, the added cost of the burden is not something I would charge the youth membership when I was a COR. Missouri Highway Patrol has fairly rigorous inspections for busses in school service. I don't know about busses in private service. Worth asking Do you have a mechanic show willing to work on busses nearby? Bottom line: Lots of homework, lots of decisions about after-purchase operations/maintenance costs... and who will absorb them?

OK, new Wolves. Yes, indeed, 1:4 is the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE ratio. Depending on ages and stages of your charges, you may want a higher ratio. If Mikey needs 1/1 with parents to stay in line, do not be afraid to expect their help. Make sure your walking leaders understand they don't just work with their Billy, they help all 4 kids in their line of supervision! (I've seen Robby and Jack and Jimmy get left out more than once). Den Chiefs are indeed a great thing. Asking your Troop for extra Den Chiefs is a boon idea. You might consider feeding them (instead of them bringing their own brown-bags... makes the week special for them). Have all manner of active songs ready to keep them busy while staff is setting up... Head sHoulders knees and toes comes to mind, as does Froggy.

Some more comments: We're a 300 series Council (big but not biggest). Our Cub Overnight supports 250: 125 pair of Cubs and parents. Each of 4 campsites holds just over 30 tents or 60 folk. This year, we will run 13 sessions of this program across 7 weeks! Each weekend, staff reports Thurs 6PM for their workweek, sets up. Sessions run Friday 8AM - Saturday 5PM, then Sunday/Monday. 8-10AM is arrive, check-in, and settle into campsites. Each site has a commish (resident) and a youth staff host. 10-1045 is the opening flag ceremony and group photo. 1045-1230 is lunch and necessary group orientations. 1230-515 is program areas: Day 1: Water Park (one of the facilities I mentioned above, specifically built for 8-9 year olds, max water depth 18") Game/Activity 1 (We have an old castle, staff runs a game, helps Cubs make Trail Mix, and helps make concrete stepping stones). Game/Activity 2 (We have a stockade, there staff helps make a tool box and the Cubs learn how rope is made) BB Gun Range. 530-615 Supper 615-800 Unit activity time, water park is open, trading post is open, chaplain runs a program, ... 815-915 Campfire 10PM Lights out Day 2 Wakeup 7AM, Flag Ceremony 730AM, breakfast thereafter. Program areas begin at 830AM Activity/Game 1 "The Lost Mine" and leather work Activity/Game 2 "Indian Village"... game and other craft work. Water Park (hey it's summer, and the kids cannot get enough of it) Archery Range (we tried "action archery", but surveys called it a loser activity. 3 of 4 program hours to lunchtime noon lunch 1 PM last program hour 2-4PM Belt Loops programs 4-5 Closing ceremony HTH(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

SctDad, PM me, I will put you in touch with our Reservation Professional. Heart of America Council has had a very successful Bear Overnight Camp for several seasons. Part of our most recent facilities capital fund drive was to put in specific facilities in support of this camp at our Cub World. WOW is an understatement for our program.

As said by Fred, completely voluntary. There are some of us Christians who are rather upset about "mix and match" worship. My God tells me, in Law and Gospel, that He is a jealous God. I would talk with your Pastor as well as you plan and design this.

kahits, If you propose to have the .32-20 weapon anyplaceexcept your Council Scout Reservation, I'd ask the facility Rangers or landowners in advance. In my State, there is a difference between a true mock-up and a weapon. In certain State Parks, and in most County recreation areas, weapons other than those held by law enforcement are by statute/ordinance forbidden. You, your youth, and their families do not need the headaches of crossing the line. In my mind, a true non-firing mock-up would be better for this use.

ScoutNut, Two specific comments, from experience: "What levels of Scouts will you have? If you have Tigers thru Webelos, you will need to structure your program to have different age appropriate activities for all levels." If the activity can be tied off to the advancement programs for each age, and many can, there are few age-appropriate activities for a 10 year old that are not doable downwards to a 7 year old. This is all the more so for the new Tiger, since it should be a 1/1 adult-youth ratio for them! Will there be a trading post at each camp? You will need a Scout Shop employee, or council employee, to staff them. Our council does quite well with volunteers running the Day Camp trading post. The kicker is the lead volunteer and the staff Professional do 100% inventory of stuff as it arrives, and carefully monitor sales as the camp progresses. I agree with you, though, it feels from this remove that Daycampcord is being set up by her Council for failure.

SR540Beaver, I gotta agree with that! Parental buy-in is part of this. Yes, we're talking young men, but they're not even fully independent. I also like that you clearly define expectations. What your Troop does will help when a SM has to approach a Scout and ask tough questions

Cheffy, so we are clear, here is what Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 says: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if: - He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current). - He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons. - He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on). The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position. You must do what is right in your own heart, but remember the other part: If the Scout doesn't budge and says I completed the POR to the standards in our Troop, you have limited options: Among them is to refuse to sign off the SM Conference. If you do that, you're expected to inform the Scout of his rights within the Scouting Advancement system. If he or his parents exercise those rights, expect his advancement to be withdrawn from the unit. There are two real things you can do: - Resolve to set and routinely expect standards of performance from your Scouts in their PORs. - Hope this young man sees it your way. I wish you well, from where I sit you are in between a rock and a hard place.

Welcome to the Forums. Tiger Cubs is a 1/1 all the time program. 1 parent, 1 child. That's the inherent design of the program. BSA does not stand for "Baby Sitters of America." Mom, Dad, Grandma, or Grandpa need to be there. Period. If they're not going to be there, consider giving your regrets that they cannot come. The other side of the coin is using good positive behavior reinforcers This is the beginning of the trail. Proper praise, Big smiles and applause (attention) for the well-behaved are motivators! Have fun, let us know how it goes.

I've only taken WB21C, and have yet to staff. Lord willing, I will have the time and ability to serve staff in the next couple years. It'll help solidify the concepts, so I can serve myself, my units, and my greater good better. My faculty did a good job. Having seen what I've seen, I think they mix a few things from the old back into the new. We did have the weather rock, as one example. I'm not sure their definition of Diversity is what others would think of. Overall... I'm a better Scouter and a better Dad for having gone to the course. More importantly, my pool of resource people has opened wide! John

I just went out with a Venturing Crew yesterday, mini-golfing. One of the young men was 17, another was almost 17, another is days from 19. Young men want activities and interests which engage them. If your Troop is losing youth at 15, and they're coming back at 17 and 4 months, then it's time to look at what your program offers the 16 year old... - Many have mentioned real authority and responsibility for the Troop. Do you give that to these older youth, or are they made to do the basics one more time? - How many times have they camped in that campsite? What challenge would keep them going? - Finally, if you are offering age-appropriate program which they've bought into, and they're still not coming, maybe you don't renew their membership at recharter. Let them re-apply to come back. While conditions on advancement are not kosher, having a pre-joining SM conference and setting expectations before you accept their youth app to me is in the box.

B, In a good world, I think this could resolve itself ... this'd be month 4 or so of the young man's tenure, and the SM could hold a "coaching" SM conference ... and get the young man onto task. Perhaps, he could even come to a mutual agreement that the initial time was shooting completely off the target, and didn't count. We're 8 months downrange, in POR service, from that point. We here don't know if the young man has had signoff!!!???!!! If he has, who approved the POR time? We adults need to be consistent and operate off one sheet of music. I guess that's the lesson I hope gets taken away ... If we grownups want Eagle to be an Honor, we have to provide the training, provide the expectations, and provide the oversight. Hopefully, much of it can be done youth to youth, with the SPL being a gatekeeper, but there are skills that kids haven't learned, that an adult may need to teach. As far as setting the bar, no time is better than now. The SM concerned just has to understand in setting the bar after the fact, he may have it come back to haunt him, and he will have to deal with that too.

Cheffy, In my earlier post I assumed you were the Scoutmaster. You make no comment to your position in the Troop. The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper here. We spent weeks last year talking about training a young man to do his POR, then setting expectations of performance. If the Troop sets a standard of "time with the patch" counts, you get what you deserve. OTOH, if the Troop sets performance criteria, enforces it with the ASPLs, SPL, ASMs, (overseeing Committee folk), and SM, then there's grounds to say no. It's the SM's call to decide if standards start with the Scout, or if he/she learns the lesson the hard way and sets/enforces standards for the future. That's a hook or a rub: If units set standards, but do not enforce them, they're worse than useless. If units unevenly enforce standards, they're also worse than useless. Please understand: If the SM denies the Eagle SM conference or denies sign-off, this is the point in Scouting where the young man (or his parents) have explicitly stated rights. The duty when saying no is also to give the path to access those rights. I've said my piece, go and Scouter in peace.

You've been given a lot of pretty solid advice already. Like others, I agree on the rumor. Three items: - You need to procure and read the 2007 (or 08, if it's out) edition of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. If you and your SPL do not have a solid record of recording this Scouts' performance, saying it's not to standard, and coaching him to change, you will as stated almost certainly be overturned on appeal. Also, if you elect not to give the Scout an advancement Scoutmaster Conference, or you refuse to sign off on the Eagle application, you are obligated to inform the Scout of the appeal procedures. - You need to visit with your District Advancement Chair. Today. He needs to know what's coming down the pike. If he appeals, you can expect the entire matter to be taken from your hands. - Quality of performance in the POR is yours and the SPLs job. Take a look at yourself in the mirror, and resolve you will deal with Scouts throughout their tenures, and keep the kids on the good path.

Ed, You have as much as an hour a week after Scouting ?? What's your secret? John

Registrations rarely if ever cover salaries. They do cover: Facility rental. Trash contract (rarely included in the facility in my neck of the woods) Latrine contract (again rarely included in the facility rent around here). Insurance on the activity. AND program area operating costs. Fifty dollars is pushing the envelope, OTOH, fuel is driving up all costs across the board. A tour operator I know had to invoke his emergeny price increase clause for the first time ever, so his early payers could be billed the additional fuel surcharges. I'd ask your District Acvitivies Chairman or your DE how the costs actually broke down.