John-in-KC

Trev, Will you understand if instead of "know to be wrong", I say "I take on faith to be wrong?" Faith does indeed encompass the matters of the unseen after all

Trev, All I can say is I am delighted to say I once was from the San Fernando Valley.

This appears to be a Pack Family Camp. Each family should be responsible for its own tentage. You've not told us how you plan to cook and serve meals yet... common Pack, Dens, family units??? I'd assign each Den one or more program elements for the program day... depending on how long you'll be in camp. Remember, if you're going to swim, you need someone certified for Safe Swim Defense/Safety Afloat. It's probably best to rent the pool from the facility and have them provide lifeguards, otherwise you're getting into deep detail very fast.

OK, Merlyn, I'll accept that LAFD may decide to employ its own writer-editors and create a youth-serving curricula. I would hope BSA's attorneys closely scrub the products for copyright infringement. That goes ditto for Camp Fire, Boy's Clubs, Big Brothers, and GSUSA. Hey, it's the Angelenos tax dollars that will pay for materials development... One other point: My Council has a "BSA rate" to rent its facilities (camps, COPE/climbing towers, pools and such) and an "outside BSA" rate. LAFD is going to find that if they're not working with some youth-serving organization, they're going to pay more for properties use. More power to them. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Very true, Trev, But that's why families in other religious traditions do have monks and priests ... to help them help their youth discover the matters which are important. Even a family focusing on Scientology has some form of work to use in developing their children. Even Shinto, which has no sacred writings, has expository writings. Those can be used by a Scout to enhance his experience with the god-system in his family. Am I writing clearly and making sense?

5 - 7 times. Build up from a whisper to a cresendo, then back off again, as though Scouts are singing it as they pass by on the trail... Oh Be Prepared, Prepared, Prepared, The motto of a Boy Scout Be Prepared, Prepared, Prepared, The motto of a Scout Prepared, Prepared, The motto of a Boy Scout Prepared, Prepared, The motto of a Scout ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course, "Old Cornell" is always good good as an adapted Scout song... Old Missouri Old Missouri, fair Missouri! Dear Old Varsity, Ours are hearts that fondly love thee. Heres a health to thee! chorus: Proud art thou in classic beauty, Of thy noble past. With thy watchwords, honor, duty, Thy high fame shall last. http://mizzouwire.missouri.edu/stories/2007/mizzou-101/index.php (scroll through the first minute of video or so...) "The Crimson and the Blue" Far above the golden valley Glorious to view, Stands our noble Alma Mater, Towering toward the blue. CHORUS: Lift the chorus ever onward, Crimson and the blue Hail to thee, our Alma Mater Hail to old KU. http://www.ku.edu/about/traditions/songs/crimandblue.mp3 Here's on adaption at Theodore Naish Scout Reservation... High above the broad Kaw Valley Sits the camp we love Misty elms and tall oak branches With God's sky above. Here we say that on our Honor We will ever be Loyal Scouts and faithful always Dear Camp Naish to thee...

No, we are not here to convert. We ARE here to preserve the faith extant in their families, and to preserve our own faith. As I said, this will be a significant topic on my agenda when I go to the Lutheran conference at PTC this summer... God be with you.

Are you talking to your District Activities Operations Committee (within the District Committee) yet? Have you talked to your District Professionals to identify Scouters who are health care providers?

Ranger T said in part, " the overall belief in a supreme Creator of the universe who created the beauty of the wilderness we were all enjoying at the time." And that, Sir, is anathema. I invite you to say that to your Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam. I know what would happen to me if I said it to my Pastor. Matthew 18 (church discipline) would be invoked forthwith. We are charged with guiding and shaping our young charges. The Liberty of the PLC is not License to take matters of faith into their own hands. That's why the adult is the Chaplain, and the youth the Aide. We are to respect how each family worships. How do you do that when you let children mix and match? To all on the Forum: I appreciate your indulgence here. This is perhaps the most strident spot in my whole psyche, in part because I'm willing to see the limits imposed by Scouting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Fred, I think Sylvar just did it, see his post right above. BTW, when I was active in a Troop, our demographic was homogenously Christian. Made the issue moot, as we could worship with broad, agreeable elements. Sylvar, Yes, I could live with "Faith and Reverence, An Interfaith Discussion." Unit or activity chaplain touches on what matters, but the format includes time for individual reflection and prayer.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Sylvar, OK. My position is the individual worship experience should be the emphasis, not a group service. Scouts and Scouters should spend time with God during the weekend.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Here is a great resource: MedLine at the National Institutes of Health. Just one example, oriented to Cubs: Treating a cut... http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000043.htm Remember that for Venturing, the normal and general standard of training is the American Red Cross Standard First Aid course. That is somewhat of a higher bar than First Aid MB. I'd start cross-grouping themes (say injuries) but making each event in the theme area program and requirement-specific. That way Cubs are working on Achievements, Boy Scouts are learning to fulfill rank or FA MB requirements, and Venturers are learning to meet the tasks for ARC Standard First Aid. Does that help?

Like I said earlier... Share concerns with the Lodge Adviser. Then, find a LEC member who you think can connect the dots. From that point on, it needs to be up to the youth membership, if we care at all that the Order is youth-operated. ICS John who was last eligible to vote on OA issues in the summer of 1977...

Our Council is diligently working to network Eagle Scouts (of age and beyond) across their day jobs... At least once a year there is an Eagle Scout Evening at one of the major hotel convention centers... complete with a very well equipped cash bar, I'm told.

http://www.scouting.org/media/relationships/chaplainrole.aspx From the text: Planning Worship Experiences Every troop going away for a weekend needs to plan to conduct or attend a service in keeping with the 12th point of the Scout Law. You may be invited to conduct the services or work out a program with the chaplain aide and other adult leaders. An overnight event should include worship experiences, either for the individual or for the troop. You may want to recommend scripture readings or devotional readings to be used at the close of the evening or as a morning meditation. Emphasis added... Peace be with you!

Sylvar, Let's go back to the explanation of the 12th point: "A Scout is reverent, he is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." (emphases added) Some of Eric Kelly's post describes how I feel... "they don't meet the spiritual obligations dictated by my faith." Before I go farther, when someone says "interfaith" to me, we're not talking a mix of Baptist/Lutheran/Catholic/Orthodox/Pentecostal. We're talking crossing the major faith community lines: Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu, Shinto, Islam (not in any special order...) Also, when we talk "interfaith," I think there is plenty of room for fellowship, service, and learning outside explicit worship. I went to UC Santa Barbara all those years ago. The University Religious Conference was a gathering place for all manner of campus ministries. Did Hillel and Lutheran Campus Ministry share a spaghetti dinner study hall night during Dead Week? Yeppers! Am I willing to learn about other faiths and worship traditions? Yes. The operative word is learn. Am I insistent that only Christian chapel be held? NO. Adamantly. The obligation of the 12th point is for each Scout/Scouter to support their brothers and sisters when they are worshipping ... as they are taught in their own faith communities. The young people in our charge are starting to form and mesh their lifelong values. We do not need to play mix and match with their Faith. They need clarity, not confusion. If you ask me to sit down across a cup of cocoa and we discuss each other's faith? Sure. Ask me to observe your worship? Probably. Ask me to worship in your way? NO. The interfaith service to me is the last of those 3. It's where I draw a bright line. To close, I'll look at Revelation 3:14-16. I know there's a similar verse in the OT: It's the First Commandment. I suspect there are similar verses in other holy writings: 14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarmneither hot nor coldI am about to spit you out of my mouth. Respecting the convictions of others does not equal worshipping after their fashion. It also does not mean trying to make "of the many, one." Have I made sense? Did I answer your question?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I like that last idea ... a lot.

OH BOY!!! THE MARKETERS ARE AT WORK!!! Sorry, my cynicism is kicking in. I've seen enough adults who are Eagle Scouts to know that to be Eagle is to be one for a lifetime. I'll withhold final judgment on whether this is hype or not, but it's going to take more than a little bit to convince me it's not hype.

SSSscout, ... and I will say it again, Sir: To me, as a Christian, what you model in your Scout's Own is anathema. I have said that about other "mix and match" services. I regret having to be bold in so saying. Peace be with you.

Most of what emb021 said. Are you a youth member or Adviser? If a youth member, I'd approach the Chief and Vice Chiefs and ask "why so many committees, are we really making progress, or are letting the adults run us?" Let the 3 of them discuss it offline with the Professional staff adviser and the Adviser. If an adult, I'd find some youth who can connect the dots and let him ask the same question... You don't tell us if the Lodge does NOAC, does Section conclave, leadership course, and all the other opportunities for fellowship which are built into the Order's program. Finally, meditate on the first fact that Arrowmen are first to serve their units, then the Lodge. Good hunting here...

Gruess Gott!!! All those years ago in Frankfurt and Darmstadt Military Communities... and you're up at USAREUR... I would keep it fairly simple: 10 bux for BSA national and 12 for Boy's Life have true pro-rata, and there are even schedules. Your DE for the Transatlantic Council should be able to get you a copy of those. Then, I'd split the year into two halves. Charge the full year rate from recharter to recharter +182, and the half year from recharter +182 to recharter. I recognize there's some long term continuity challenges, but you might ask a long serving DA Civilian in Heidelberg to be your Pack Treasurer. Perhaps over time, with some fiscal history, you can refine from half-year to quarter-year. I would say this: If a family expected to be there the whole year, but PCS's/ETS's before the half year, consider being gracious and remitting some portion of the unit's share. I know your chartered partner is not the MILCOM or the ASG anymore, so you might ask your CC to run these ideas by your COR. Does all this help?

At the end of the day, though, it's a family decision. Wonder what the current Cub Scout Leader Book says about the uniform method and Cubbing for Webelos? Ditto the Uniform Guide?

Thank you.

Bob, Thanks for that. Do you remember whether any of your youth were beyond basic Christendom (Islamic, Jewish etc), as opposed to the Catholic/multiple Protestant/Orthodox families within Christendom? TIA

Gern, We can, really easily, digress into the DRP debate yet again. From my perspective, BSA should be an enabler of Faith. Period. To Narraticong: I actually have an answer for the last: Council Relationships Committees should acively promote the Religious Emblems program. Catholic, Buddhist, Jew, protestant Christian, LDS, Muslim... I care not. Our Council's Catholic Committee actively trains and certifies Scouters to counsel its awards and programs. Several area churches in our Council sponsor the protestant programs, we train and certify counselors to handle the PRAY materials. In addition to letting Scouts do the program in their own churches, we offer opportunities for unchurched/underchurched kids to discover God leveraging on the PRAY curricula. (BTW, to keep denominational emphasis, especially at the God and Church program level, we're adamant that a Pastor sign off on understanding the statement of faith (lesson 3), the liturgy (lesson 5), and that a Pastor or lay leader sign off on parish organization (lesson 7). I look forward to picking Mark and Debbie's brains at PTC. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)