John-in-KC

Pack212... I am talking at other times of the year as well! Heck, long long ago...(40+ years), on Den meeting days we routinely wore my "school Cub uniform" to school... blue jeans, scout belt, scout shirt. Mom was Den Mother; she had us save our official Cub pants (we all had them) for Pack meetings and outing trips.

At the risk of sounding like Bob White... (sigh)... The problem is that I'm going the CC job, but here's our last email to give you an idea of what I'm up against. I sent the CC and CM (Bill) this email: We had 5 new CubScouts show up last night. I didn't know anyone was coming... They had questions I couldn't answer. Do they need to fill out the adult application? What's the point of doing that? Is there an additional cost to do that? If the parents want to do things Scouting in support of the children in the Pack, they may indeed want to register as Scouters. They do not to have their youth in the program. The point of joining as a Scouter is the opportunity to serve the unit as a whole, be it as your assistant DL, as an Assistant Cubmaster, as a Day Camp Den Leader, or as a Committee member. The cost to register a Scouter is $10 a year for National dues and Scouter Magazine. I do not know what adult fees your Pack sets. I had one person who didn't get the book and another one that got the wrong book. How do we get that fixed? In my Pack, new members get to buy their first book... they get it at the Council Scout Shop, or one of the BSA distributors in the area. www.scoutstuff.org can help you find area Distributors. What do we do with the Kinders that will be Tigers next year? They let them sign up.... and said it was okay??? Yes, now is the time to get them signed up; they actually can be members the day the school year lets out. That way, they can go to DAYCAMP!!! Should they meet with the current Tigers? I'd be looking for a Den Leader to start organizing that ring of the circus That's a position a Pack tries to lock in before the end of the school year, so the TDL is ready to receive kids. Do we have the "new scout" orientation information put together that we talked about? This was the CC's Response to my email: Instead of three part question and answer have them call me. I address their needs and do my job as the committee chair. I understnd you trying to help, But just like we talked about on Saturday I need to step up and do my job. I do not mind you answer what question you have answers to. All I am asking is to be able to do the job of committee chair. Let them know of my working hours 3:00pm to 11:30pm, I will try to call them between those hours if not call me after 9am. If you have any other question call me I am here. Your CM needs to have that talk with the DE and commish. They need to have a talk with the COR. The fact (not previously exposed) that your CC works the 3-11 may mean the COR needs to encourage him to take a different leadership position, which fits with his job. He's doing the kids a disservice by not being available to run his own meeting (Committee) and to do the support things a CC does at the Pack meeting. This was my response to his email: I don't have contact information, maybe Bill does. I believe the Den Leaders got information, so you'll have to call them and see. My Den wasn't suppose to have a meeting on Monday I was there just to unlock doors, but ended up spending an hour trying to answer questions and not let these people think I didn't know what was going on. I passed out and emailed the Pack Roster several times. You can get the Den Leaders numbers. You can let them know your availability. I don't have the opportunity at work to use the phone all the time, so during the day email is the best way for me to communicate. Person to person at Pack Committee is the best mode of communication. Voice is second, because emotions and inflections come out in voice. Digits have the advantage of bulk, but the disadvantage of impersonality. BTW, there are two sides to every story. I'm reading yours. The challenge is how we turn this into a win/win situation. Your CC is trying to do the right thing and serve youth; perhaps there's a slot which supports his ability to serve a bit better. Finally, training, training, and training: Think of the various cub scout materials as a playbook. The role of training is to get you and your fellow leaders not only working in the playbook, but working on the same play of the playbook. The Pack goal should be every Scouter has: Youth Protection New Leader Essentials and as appropriate: Tiger DL, Den Leader, or Webelos DL specific Cubmaster specific Webelos Outdoor Leader BALOO Although Boy Scout specific, Troop Committee Challenge, taken by the whole Committee, can be an excellent teambuilding exercise. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Well I can delegate and coordinate at the Den meetings with different people, but I'm there to ask questions. Remember that your first responsibility is to the eight Cubs of your Den and their weekly meeting. You have more influence on them in that hour a week than with anyone other than their parents and teacher. (sometimes more than them). They must be your first concern. Your husband volunteered to be CM, let him be the heavy here. I'm already at Roundtable for the Troop, so two birds with one stone is okay. No, it's not okay. Roundtable is not simply a "pick up the mail from District." It's a resource, introducing the National program themes a month ahead of delivery to the youth. All direct contact leaders have a proper place in being at Roundtable! When you choose to volunteer to take on the responsibility, someone else gets left off the hook. The ideal Cub RT is a model Pack meeting, showing how the themes play out. It also allows sharing of best practices. Trust me... benefit for all to attend! The parents see me at the meetings I update them all the time and solicate help. I hope you mean your parents (your Den) see you at your meetings. Your Den deserves your full attention as its leader! Each DL in the Pack is a direct conduit for information to his/her youth's parents. At the Troop level, do I have to attend the boys meetings? No, but I am much better at it when I do. True... you can coordinate with your various chairs and coordinators informally. You get to chair Boards of Review. You get to stay out of the way of the PLC as the youth run the meeting under the supervision of the Scoutmaster. You get to set an example by being in the full BSA uniform Caution: The Methods and Purposes of Cub Scouting parallel, but are not identical to, Boy Scouting. They are age-appropriate for 7-11 year olds. Make sure you stay on track with each program.

OK. You are at risk of leader burnout. Let me be blunt about that. Your husband, as the Cubmaster, is the right guy to be talking to the DE. He is the Program Officer of your pack. He can lay his concerns, including a lack of support from the support side, on the table. That conversation should include that your Chartered Partner may not be filling their share of the burden. Google "Scouting" and "Charter Agreement." The license contract is out there, you need to know what the Partner is supposed to be doing. He'll be repeating his conversation, with your District Commissioner. Hopefully, there is a UC for your Pack. We do talk much theory here, what happens on the ground isn't always the same. From what you've told me, your Pack has three specific problems: - Leader recruitment. As GW said, too few people are doing too many jobs. A distributed burden means each person carries less of the load. - Leader training. Cubbing is a great program, but we work together better when we all understand the playbook. - Unit planning. The way you write, I perceive much is being done "by the seat of your pants." The elephant is much easier to eat if you do it one bite at a time. Enough people to share the job is part of the solution, enough time to do things outside "NEXT CRISIS!" is another part of the solution. More later.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The best recruiters are your own youth. Have a "wear your uniform to school day." Have a special, VERY FUN den meeting at the school!

Boy you've touched on all the areas of frustration. New group took over in January. There was training available on the weekend my husband and I were going skiing. Since then there has been no "new leader", BALOO, or specific leader training. Sept/Oct are the next dates on calendar. Call your District Executive. He/she is a paid Professional. Ask for contact info for your District Commissioner. Call him her. Ask for contact info for your Unit Commissioner. Contact him/her, state specific needs! A parent of a "Den Chief" asked if we had a "Unit Commissioner". I said I don't know I'll ask. We did, but I've never seen that person at any of our meetings. Now this Dad tells me he was appointed "Unit Commissioner" Council never told the CC or CubMaster. See the above. UC is not necessarily a trainer, but where your Pack is, you need training out of cycle. BTW a Den Chief is a Boy Scout who can provide support and assistance to a Den Leader. There is a training package available for Den Chiefs, done well (and with the Den Leaders), it helps forge them into a team to work the youth. I am YPT, CC fasttrack, Committee Fasttrack trained. I am the Committee Chair for my son's Troop also, which is a different unit. I'll be blunt. Many of the challenges you face are resolved by having more hands (to share the load), and by training those hands. There's a lot of material on the BSA website for Cubbing, folks need to read it. At the same time, you, working with your Commissioner, need to ask for out-of-cycle New Leader Essentials and position specific training. BTW, you, the CM, and the DLs (really, every Scouter in your Pack) can benefit from attending your District Roundtable. It gives you a months lead in the program, and helps cross-fertilize experienced Scouters with newbies. There are many good ideas you can take as "low hanging fruit." As for Charter Organization we only see them at Blue and Gold. Otherwise I don't think there's much contact. We don't meet at their facility. That phone call with your DE? I recommend you ask for a business visit with your Chartered Partner. Scouting licenses (charters) your CO to operate a unit in your area (that's you). There are expectations the Chartered Partner should meet. I hope by now you see that Scouting, on the adult side, is a team effort to help the youth learn and mature by having fun. The team doesn't work as well if one of the starters is sitting on the sidelines. Our Weblo Den was the only group to set up and take positions, but we are out next year. So there isn't anyone in charge of the different events, calendar, roster, etc. The biggest problem the parents had before, myself included, was lack of communication and direction. We found out about events at the last minute, therefore poor participation. I feel like I've really worked hard to get this problem solved and so many parents have praise the change, but now I'm being told "let me do my job as Committee Chair".... So do I pull out and let the chips fall, because it's the boys and parents that will suffer. What is your position again? Are you or are you not the Committee Chair? I'm confused; your last sounds like the are two chairpeople... More in about 4 hours, I need to have time with EagleSon.

When I was ACM, I wore the BSA Field or Class A uniform: Pants, shirt, belt. Didn't wear a necker. When I was CC, I wore a business suit; I was coming straight from work, generally without time to change, and I if couldnt' be in uniform, I wanted to "make an effort." Encourage all your leaders to wear the BSA uniform, including the switchbacks (or culottes/skirt if desired and appropriate). Leaders set the example for the kids.

Followups: GW suggested another huge resource: The Unit Commissioner. He/she's a volunteer who provides resources and program support to a Pack, Troop, Team or Crew. Won't do the work for you, but will certainly help you learn to find the answers! Agree with infoscouter that the Committee Chair should attend Pack meetings. As the Cubmaster is the Program officer, helping the kids have fun and making sure each Den is moving forward, the CC has communication and coordination duties which include info sharing at Pack Events. BTW, the Committee Chair and the Cubmaster have pretty much joint responsibility for planning the Pack's year!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Welcome to the Forums. May I ask, how much training you've completed so far? I'm writing this answer rather much in the dark, and it'll help all of us focus better if you can provide that detail. GW is right. All unit serving Scouters are approved by the Chartered Organization Representative (COR). He or she oversees the interests of the Chartered Partner and ensures the unit executes program and support according to the Aims of Scouting and the Methods and Purposes of the Cub Scouting Program. http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/chorr.aspx May I ask: Who has taken Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, and position specific (Tiger Leader, Den Leader, Webelos Den Leader (as appropriate) or Cubmaster) training in your program and support sides? To answer your questions: So who is supposed to get the information about Scoutorama books to everyone? With a well-running Pack Committee, this should be a cross of the Pack Communications coordinator, the Cubmaster (as program officer), and the Den Leaders. Information can go out as flyers at Den meetings, in a monthly newsletter (handed out at Pack meetings), or as email. Who is at the Den Meetings to sign up new people and collect money? The Den Leader. He or she is the direct contact unit leader! He/she then gets both of the above to the unit Membership coordinator/treasurer. Who is supposed to handle all the parent questions? The Den Leaders. When there is a specific question they cannot answer, their resource net includes the Cubmaster, the various support side members of the Committee, and the Committee Chair. Is "Call so and so" really the best way to do thing? No. Cross-communication amongst the Scouters of a unit (program and support side) so that each direct contact leader has basic answers is the first best solution. This includes a solid Pack communications program, which gets info to parents. Here's a page which has a chart of the positions in a Pack and their various responsibilities: http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx From that: Here's what the Committee does: http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/pcomm.aspx Here's the Cubmaster: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/cmast.aspx And here are the different den leaders http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/tcden.aspx http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/csden.aspx http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/webdl.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-923.aspx Here's the Fast Start package. Note it's note part of MyScouting and the online training: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/videos/varsityleader.aspx Yes, we talked about it in Wood Badge. Yes, I think it has a brand identity problem. It uses the same fundamental member items as the Boy Scout program (Oath, Law, HB, advancement pattern). It also has membership overlap with Boy Scouting and Venturing (14-18). It has a couple different awards than Boy Scouting.. the letter and the Denali. If you look at the letter, it's kinda sorta designed to support Scouting within a HS or club team that already exists. It pings on the sports season as a program device... BTW, the letter still has an explicit attendance requirement! (What about that conversation, folks???)... Frankly, I'd be surprised if there are 10 Teams chartered outside LDS-specific units in my entire Council, and we are "not quite" a humongous council.

Sylvar, Several bottom lines, and speaking for myself... - I'll take work done at a Camporee, but the Scout won't get very far if he gives me a District (or even Troop) level printed laundry list. That's a big red flag saying "Merit Badge Mill." - If the Scout has a "Do and discuss" requirement (visit a state capitol in Cit/Nation)... I'll ask two questions: When did you go? (I will not buy a visit from his cub scouting days, or if it was before he joined boy scouting), and what mattered to you during the trip? One kid answered about several architectural details... he'd never seen an Art Deco building before! I accepted it. I also served as advancement coordinator. I didn't worry a whole lot about policy; that was a program decision and within the purview of the SM. I made sure the data was accurately captured and accurately reported to Council (that's a different story/battle, getting ScoutNet and unit advancement records to conform at the award level). Have fun doing what you're going to do. It's not the most fun, but seeing the youth get awards at COHs is rewarding!

zzzz meaning: Snore. Source data: zzzz. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary, Third Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zzzz (accessed: April 30, 2008).

Ed, Chill. Relax, dude. From my read, Eagle90 was referring to the fact that his Council requires Tour Permits for ELSPs done offsite from the regular meeting place. I think he understands full well the purpose/function of the TP process Does that make sense? John

Sylvar, The targets scenario is a great example of a point I'm trying to make. You said, in your first post: "We were handed a list of the reqs the boys had completed at the camporee". I have never heard of a District Camporee which manages what individual Scouts really did and consolidates it into a database report for the SM. If you're telling me they did that, kudos to your District; they have more volunteer support than mine does. That's the level of effort I see at Scout Camps in the various lodges! What I've usually seen out of an event such as this is a xeroxed paper: Scouts at this camporee qualified for: Rifle MB, Requirement 2A ... a, b, c, d , k and l. As a Counselor, I do not have to accept a form letter from the District. I can ask the Scout to show me his targets for 2A k and l, or I can say "Why don't you and a buddy and a Dad/Mom meet me at the range on Saturday and we'll do some shooting?" As a MBC, I would hope a Scoutmaster short-stops this kind of laundry list from reaching me. So... is the list I'm talking about the list you were talking about? Have a wonderful Scouting Day This really is a great program.

MarkS, My opinion: This young man would have been better served if the SM and CC had taken Mom and Dad out for coffee months ago. The purpose of the visit would have been to explain that Scouting uses life in the outdoors as a cornerstone of its program. The Aims and the other Methods leverage outdoor life. If Mom and Dad refuse to accept that fundmental point of Boy Scouting, then we're the wrong youth serving activity for that young man. As I said earlier, be prepared to deal with 2d and 3d order consequences to the actions of the SM and CC; I do not think they will be pretty. How they deal with the next Scout saying "But you let Bobby...!!!???!!!" will be something the SM and CC must face for months to come. Lord willing, SM and CC will not have to face that question from the COR or the District Commissioner, who is fact-finding for the Council SE.

Of all your BSA training to date you've been in as a participant... What was the best single program? Why? I'll give my own answer someplace down the trail.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. First of all: Every Council I've encountered so far has an attorney somewhere on the Executive Board. He takes the post of General Counsel to the xxx BSA Council, Inc. Whether he takes it as a volunteer or a retainer is immaterial. He advises the SE, the Board, and volunteers on questions of law, including liability. In larger Councils, you may find a CPA amongst the Professional Staff, as the Comptroller. The ones I've encountered thus far have a working knowledge of BSA liability and the various insurances the Council procures. Even the smaller Council has access to resources: They can contact the BSA regional offices to help answer questions, they can also contact the National office. Certainly technical questions such as liability are also covered in an array of training packages... BUT!!! Training packages for a volunteer, presented by a volunteer, are no substitute for the advice and assistance of a qualified attorney. Beavah has also said it, as I recall. Certainly NLDScout has... Any question of law has to be answered in direct context of where you live. The law is not as uniform as we laypeople would like it to be. One of the reasons the US Supreme Court accepts cases is to settle differences in the law between two or more jurisdictions (most often Federal appeals courts). I've said enough. I'm glad I'm a tired old public policy guy and artilleryman, not a lawyer.

Michelle, I've seen a lot of Scouts now in various middle and high school classes. At the middle school level, you may or may not get them into anything Scouting related at school. Scouting's a little bit to the dorky side, and there is huge peer pressure to conform. At High School, though, there seems to be a difference. They will wear their Class A uniforms, briefly, if there's a true need. More importantly, though, they'll gladly wear staff T-shirts, OA T-shirts, Mic-o-Say T-Shirts (the honor society local to Kansas City, eastern Kansas, and Western Missouri), and all manner of polos ... generic Boy Scouting or Venturing, unit, Eagle, OA, MOS, and camp staff. True story: 4 autumns ago, one of the first Freshmen Mentors EagleSon encountered at his 9th grade HS registration day was wearing a Mic-o-Say Firebuilder T-shirt. Another was wearing a H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation camp staff T-shirt with the specific camp big and bold on the back of the shirt. One of these mentors was also co-captain of the track team; the other was President of Debate Club and eventually Salutorian of his class. Most HS Scouts will talk with quiet pride about being part of Scouting. It's become embedded in their character.

Welcome back Rooster

Line 'em up like the British Navy did for their daily ration of Lime Juice (ok, limeade). After all, that's why the Brits were LIMEYs...

Rooster, welcome back!!! KH, I have to agree with Beavah. Changing the culture of a Troop needs to be done with some care... unless you are prepared either to be asked to leave Troop leadership, to take over the Troop, or worst of all, to see your son take hits for your actions. Yes, I want Scouts to experience BORs which are not retests. The question is how do you get there from where you are now? Hopefully, at some point, your friendly unit commissioner will see a BOR in action and quietly comment back to the SM/CC...

Congratulations to him Kittle!

I'm not sure about Karen's suggestion, I don't want kids when they get back home making others "walk the plank." That could go somewhere really ugly. Can you imagine kids playing that one, one drowning, and at a Coroner's Inquest, Johnny (who is established he can tell the truth in chambers) says "I got the idea at Scout Camp... THEY did it!!" Ok. How about making a treasure chest, and placing it on the Reservation? Each day, staff helps campers hunt for it? It gets found Wednesday or so of camp week. Then on Friday, you get to say... "Argggh, ye mateys, now you get to help me place treasure for the next crew of scurvy scalawags who come to my beach!"

MarkS said in part, and I'm not sure we answered him... "I want to do the right thing for the boy without having to refuse to sit in on another BOR where he has not completed his camping requirements while keeping him active in the program." My opinion here. The right thing is for the SM and the CC to be Trustworthy and Loyal back to the Scout in question. They need to tell him they crossed an integrity line in allowing advancement. The SM and CC need to own up to their mistake and accept the consequence of a loss of confidence in their integrity by the Scout in question (and probably his parents). Then, SM and CC need to ask the young man to revisit, in his heart, the issue of whether or not he has earned, truly earned, his new rank. There's a risk: Scout may well say yes. SM and CC are done then; they are the ones who went out of bounds from Scouting policy. MarkS, I hope that actually answers your question. There is no good answer, this to me is one of the lesser bad answers.

How well does your Council attract and retain its staffers for the various Scout Camp programs? Our Council does pretty fair by itself. Depending on the camp, starting salary is from $35 a week to $80 a week. Room, board and laundry are provided (at one camp free machines, at the other Reservation, where we have 3 500 man camps, we have an adult staffer whose only job is bulk laundry). Senior staff gets raises. We authorize each staffer to buy Class A uniform parts at the Scout shop for 25% off retail, tax-free. First issue of T-shirts are free, additional shirts are for $5 a pop. Our biggest retention tool as kids arrive at college years is the staff scholarship program. If a staffer is going to college/vo-tech and successfully fulfills the season, our scholarship endowment guarantees no less than $500 for a junior college/vo-tech and $1000 for a university. The staff is still not in it for the money, but the package helps us keep folks who otherwise could pull $500 a week or more at a host of jobs away from summer camp positions. What does your Council do?