John-in-KC

The only registered positions a "transitional" Scouter (my term) (18-21) may hold are: - Assistant Scoutmaster - Merit Badge Counselor. ScoutNet should reject an app for an 18-20 YO person applying for a Committee slot

Twocubdad, Welcome to the real world As I stated earlier, in my Council, the youth is supplied the shells for his recommendations. His mission is to deliver the shells and a self-addressed stamped envelope to his references. They fill out the reference (or do a letter instead) and mail it to someone in the Troop or Crew concerned. Is it what National wants? No. Is it what our Council Advancement Committee mandates? Yes. Is it worth the battle with senior volunteers and Professionals alike to change? NO. Thus is the real world in one Council...

Webelos Camp is not necessarily 1:1 ratio. My Council can and has offered several of the standard trainings at Webelos Camp. A neighboring Council has for some years routinely offered at Boy Scout Camp: - YP - NLE - Scoutmaster specific - SSD/SA That's in addition to the program offering of BSA Lifeguard.

I did some trails in the Sierra Nevada as a youth. Californians in the day tended to take a pass on Philmont, we had our own HA in our backyard. Even so. For a 1 week, 50 mile trail, over the 6 months before it, our Troop did no fewer than 4 training hikes. Most were 8-10 miles out, overnight, then same distance back. Got us used to working with our gear and the type of food we'd use. Terrain was maybe 1000 feet vertical in the day. The last was a 15 mile out, 15 mile back overnight. Terrain was 2500 feet vertical change in the day. Whatever you do, a solid conditioning program is essential. Learning to share the loads is essential. Learning to minimize your own load is essential.

I tend to agree with emb021. My one thought pertains to the ethic of the Arrow: Cheerful Service. I see more than a few young women, Venturers, members of Crews, serving on staff at our Council Reservations or at our National HA bases. Many of these women, under 21, are doing orders of magnitude more to promote the ethic of Cheerful Service than many 12-16 year olds who take their Ordeal, maybe seal their membership, and are never seen by the Lodge again. I'd rather see many of the young women undertake the Ordeal than many of the "one pass, haul ###" boys. OTOH, young women are often more socially mature than young men ... and one of the things the Arrow does is provide expanded (scale, scope, and duration) leadership opportunities beyond the unit. Finally, I'm over 30 years past the age where my vote in the Order made a difference. So yes, I'm of two minds.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

A truism of leadership is 1 leaders span of control is 5-7 folk. BTW, that implies matured adults. For a 10 boy den, I strongly recommend both an Assistant Den Leader and a Den Chief, to help with span of control, and to allow focus on various activities. 2 helpers brings the ratio down to 3:1. BW is right, BTW, max size is supposed to be 8.

Ed, Not quite true. Read ACP&P #33088. The Scouts requirement is to furnish names. The Council and/or District Advancement Committee has the mission to actually contact the references and obtain information. Now, how many Councils actually push the form down to the Scout and have him give it and a self-addressed stamped envelope to the reference? More than a few, no matter what the book says. We've seen that time and again here. What gets me is the 3 month delay between paperwork and EBOR. That's bad management imnsho. It shouldn't take the Council Registrar more than a couple of days to process an Eagle app and cross-check data against ScoutNet. Most SM and unit advancement folk I know have back-up documentation ready if something is lacking. Two things I did as a unit advancement guy: As a Scout was approaching Eagle, I went to Council and asked for a copy of his ScoutNet advancement info. If there was a gap, I got an Advancement Report and closed that gap. Further, I extracted every critical event from the Scout's career and put it on a consolidated advancement report. That went with the SM when he or when I would drop off the Eagle app. The last stages of the Eagle Process, leading up to the Eagle SM conference and EBOR are bureaucratic in nature. It's the Scouter's job to be their blocker downfield, should the occasion arise, and should they have done their share of the work.

Hal, In my Council, if you staff a Scout Camp, you get a credit check. Youth staff, adult paid staff, adult commish staff, does not matter. Logic is Camp Director needs flexibility to reallocate duties as needed.

I cannot speak for any council but my own: If you staff a Scout Camp, you get a credit check. If you volunteer FOS, you get a credit check. If you go on the Finance Committee at District or Council, you get a credit check.

6 years ins't a long enough grandfathering?

Scoutldr, ANY person can take their app directly to the Scout office and give it to the Registrar if there are concerns about who along the way handles the SSN. It would mean the new volunteer would have to coordinate with the CC and the COR to get their signatures along the way. That is the stock line our Registrar uses when talking to anyone who is dealing with apps... be they unit serving Scouters, Commish, or Professionals.

OK, what I've been told by my Professionals... This year is the end of Grandfathering in my Council; they're doing background checks on the rest of us. It's becoming an absolute condition of membership Second, a person can give their app (particularly the COR) directly to the Council Registrar. Third, since we are talking a COR, it's time to have the DE/SE have a friendly cup of coffee sales/service call. DE is the RIGHT person to deal with issues of the Chartered Partner. Commish is Plan B for this. Your Plan B: Move the Scout.

My Ordeal and Brotherhood Lodge was merged out of existence over 35 years ago. I still wear its flap on my Venturing uniform. Those who are the patch police can have a nice life.

This is another of the "Beavah" styled threads. Be friendly, but be honest with us... Does your Council or District Advancement Committee have expectations when a Life Scout shows up with his Eagle Leadership Service Project, seeking District Advancement Committee approval to go forward? Thanks to His Honor nldscout (the Judge) and his 5000 hour threshold for the thread idea (even if it's blindingly obvious that was said in full jest)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

All of the above are good reasons why a Scoutmaster should get to know the District Advancement Chair. It's far easier for Joe to quietly ask "Jack, what's going on with Smith's project? He's had 3 meetings with Bob Johnson and Smith still hasn't been able to get sign-off?" When you have a relationship over a cup of coffee, tough questions tend to be answered "Let me find out and give you a call." That said, knowing how your District actually implements ACP&P #33088 and Requirements #33215 can save a Life Scout a lot of heartache in the development process... Should there be local interpretations? No, it's pretty clear in ACP&P that the standard is supposed to be uniform Nationwide. Are there local interpretations? Only a fool would say Never; the questions we get here are living proof of that.(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)

Cite me in the National literature where a CUB SCOUT has a requirement to swim with clothes on... We're not talking BOY SCOUTS 11-18 here, we're talking 7-11 year old CUB SCOUTS.

SctDad, Some of that comes from a failure on the part of Professional Staff and Council Committee Chairs to hammer home a key point: CUSTOMER SERVICE IS WHAT SCOUTER TRAINING SUPPORT IS ALL ABOUT It's rather hard to serve the youth if the training isn't available. Our District offers NLE, YPT, MB Counselor every RT Sept - June. Every single one. Position specific is offered at least twice a year for each of the programs. If there is demand (such as a new LDS Stake President asking for help in training his leaders), our training committee will do something out of cycle to get it done. I'd start with a friendly cup of coffee with your District Chairman. Most of the training you described should be local within your District.

No, I want the Exec Board to do its job: Give broad guidance to the COO, the Commissioner, and the District Chairs, so they can manage the resources (VOLUNTEERS). VOLUNTEER man-hours offset a huge amount of funds that would be spent in a Council, in both professions and trades. Managing to minimize double/triple-booking of volunteers is a good thing.

I think most every Council struggles with this. Unlike BW, though, I think there's an agency which should be setting policy on activities scheduling: The Executive Board. The Council President should be giving guidance, on behalf of the Board, to the COO of the Council (the SE), as well as the chief program volunteer (the Council Commissioner). They in turn can have talks with the Professionals. Springtime, though, is the busy season for a Council: It's time to get camps ready for the season. One of the big missions of a Council, by the Charter Agreement with the Chartered Partners, is to provide program activities (this means day camps and LT camps). There is much to be done, and managing the resources available (partuclarly the volunteers available to do things) isn't the easiest chore in the world. Now, please understand, there is virtually no way on earth once you have Councils' part of the calendar down, not to have conflict when you lay Districts' calendar down. It's just gonna be busy. My best suggestion for the moment? Have a friendly cup of coffee with your District Chairman. Share your concerns. Be ready to be part of the solution, though... you may be asked .

Let's start with Safe Swim Defense Point Two: Physical Fitness Require evidence of fitness for swimming activity with a complete health history from physician, parent, or legal guardian. Point Three: Safe Area When swimming in areas not regularly maintained and used for swimming activity, have lifeguards and swimmers systematically examine the bottom of the swimming area to determine varying depths, currents, deep holes, rocks, and stumps. Mark off the area for three groups: not more than 3 1/2 feet deep for nonswimmers; from shallow water to just over the head for beginners; deep water not over 12 feet for swimmers. Ability Groups Divide into three ability groups: Nonswimmers, beginners, and swimmers. Keep each group in its own area. From the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety: Unit Fund-raisers Include these safety considerations when planning a unit fund-raiser: Money-earning projects should be suited to the ages and abilities of youth participants. 12. Permits and Notices. BSA tour permits, council office registration, government or landowner authorization, and any similar formalities are the supervisor's responsibility when such are required. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah, if I were the SE, I'd have my H&S lead volunteer come in, then I think I'd call the Chartered Partner in for a long talk. This, simply put, was grandstanding. There were other things the CM, CC, and DLs could do to support Mr Durant.

I think the Council H&S folk and the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner need a serious business conversation (vice a friendly cup of coffee). Who was there to temper the youths' enthusiasm with a modicum of maturity? Cub Scouts is not youth led, it's adult led ... with a reason. We don't ascribe to Cubs the ability to make fully reasoned decisions; at least the last time I read the Cubbing Methods we didn't...

Contact the folks at PTC. There was a guy in my week (2008 Relationships) who had a portable Scouting museum. Lots of technical uniforming... I mean, he could talk about not only design changes, but when National Supply dropped purchase orders. He's down in Texas is the one thing I remember. He wasn't in my course, and I didn't grab one of his business cards. I'm hoping the permanent staff at PTC can connect the dots.

speeglevillemom... Practical questions to ask both your DE and your predeccesor PD and Director: - Where's the paperwork you guys had last year? Much of camp standards is gathering paperwork, much of the paperwork changes with a date from year to year. - Mr DE, how important is this to you? The week before camp and the week fo camp, your DE should be joined with you and your director at the hip. If not, there's a priorities issue out there, and you need that resolved. - Do you and your Director have a registrar, who might even have served last year? That's the business side, vice the program side, but... - What was the budget last year for program? What materials were bought in bulk and and stored in someone's garage or stroage unit? Something is out there. - Have you had a Tot Lot in the past (for kids of staff, as well as non-Scouting sibs of participants (age or gender)? Who will staff that this year? - Since you've talked about promotion, how is your Director going to help you in promoting Day Camp? (Let me give you a hint, meet with the District Commissioner and the District Activities Chair and slough some of this burden off on them!) Keeping taking single bites of the elephant ... BTW, when you're done, the people you want to have a heart-to-heart business conversation with are the Chairpeople of the: - Council Camping Committee - Council Activities Committee When you do that, though, make sure you've spent time with your District Chairman, Commish, and DE ... so they know what you're going to say and can have your back!

I will speak to one of those other programs: Simply put, OA does not provide every member significant adult association. 98% of all teens need lots of hands on active mentorship in developing their personal mores and ethics. There is a single ethical value emphasized in the Order: Cheerful Service. More than a few of the early Scout Executives, who were encouraged by Mr West to experiment, decided other values (God, Country, even Mom) were just as signficant to a young mans' development. There is also the small matter of $,$$$,$$$. Yes, millions of dollars. Some of these other honor camper organizations can tap into adult loyalty even beyond the Scouting years. That translates into additional funds and a lowered reliance on the United Way as a source of funding. Yes, I love the Order. I was tapped out at 13 (yes, and old fashioned KAWHUMP grab by my belt, a war yell from my guide, and 3 resounding KAWHUMP taps by the C-team guy at the center of the fire. I've also seen, in adulthood, hands on, some of the other organizations. They work. They usually work together. OK? OK.

shortridge and BadenP, Yes, like you I laud speeglevillemom for wanting to step up to the plate. I think you've hit on her biggest immediate challenge: Recruiting quality adults and Scouts to be her program staff. She needs to touch base with the District Commissioner like... yesterday, especially to tap into Boy Scouts for J-staff. One hint: Boy Scouts like food. Feed them lunch, give them a couple staff shirts, and you'll have loyalty til the cows come home. BTW: Gotta love the "Mary Poppins Council." As Emperor Zurg in Buzz Lightyear of Star Command says: File that away for future use.