John-in-KC

One of three people (COR, CC, or Program Officer... in your case the CM) should invite Mom or Dad to a friendly cup of coffee. Find out what the real circumstances are. Then, between the Chartered Partner and the unit or the Council (ours has camperships available), do what you can to help. Next fall, make sure Billy is a big part of the unit fundraisers.

Sweet Mercy. BSA has thousands of volunteers who'd have been glad to do a final pre-production beta test on the new site implementation. Instead, the IT department rolls it out without seemingly even thinking about the folks who already use the site. Cue Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

Highcountry, That to me is pretty much the proper approach.

I'm with Lisa and Ed on this one as well. I draw the line at nudity. That means Playboy is the kick-in point. More urgent is softcore porn. More urgent still is hardcore porn. The most urgent of all, to me, is sexting. Young people do not realize they're bouncing, immediately, into high order Federal violations. A child porn offense ruins a life. It goes back to Scripture in my mind: All things are possible, not all are right.

Here are my thoughts: If Billy, who happens to be the PL of the Owls, calls his friends in the patrol and says "Let's go to LazerTag (or PaintBall Field) on Saturday," and they get a couple Dads to take them ... it's a bunch of kids who are friends, who share Scouting, who are doing it outside of Scouting. They're doing this on their own, and they/families are taking responsibility. OTOH... If the PLC says "Let's go to LaserTag instead of Troop meeting 2 weeks from now. Do not wear uniforms. We will not be doing any Troop business that night; it's "not a Troop meeting." ... then Mr Scoutmaster needs to kick in the Scout Law on Trustworthy, Loyal, and Obedient.

Dean, I tend to agree, and since the SM wasn't the winner of Top Communicator award with this one (feedback is a gift )... I'd have said something very similar, but it would have been: - To the SPL.. - In person if at all possible (going to his house and visiting with him/Mom/Dad as needed for appropriate 2-deep) - Let him craft the message (with a little help) - Have him send it to PLs and Troop officers - Only then would I have sent a follow-up to parents. There are ways to twist arms, hard such that the youth get the message. Sometimes left-handed choices are a viable option.

While I need a litte more info on what happened, would it be true to say that this particular parent pegged your "fun meter?" If that is true, and you are serving all the program functions for these kids (how many BTW?), then I absolutely agree with Eagle92: Have an offline cup of coffee with your Committee Chair. Tell him you are not a one-man show. If he cannot work the parents and the Chartered Partner to get folks to step up, your plan is to transfer yours/your families' membership and leave the Pack. At that point, Cub Scout Training tells us, the CC becomes the Program Officer as well. BTW, source for that last comment is: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/pcomm.aspx If the Cubmaster is unable to serve, assume active direction of the pack until a successor is recruited and registered.

The better solution is to open that new den as the 9th and 10 boys arrived. Then, when you're at 14, you've a den of 8, and a den of 6, which still has room to grow.

Lest any of us forget, Lisa's Council does not have its own Scout Reservation. I guess that means they cannot offer such program as NYLT... Sigh.

Ken, Where I was assigned is where PTC assigned me. No control over that. There's a difference between enthusiasm and being jerks. Many of the NAYLE participants had come in independent of PTC participation. They were jerks, thoughtless and downright rude.

Beavah and ScoutNut have it spot-on. I just cannot tell you whether a request for a late EBOR in conjunction with an appeal will even fly. I've never encountered that level of administrative running in the muck.

Neil, I'm actually rather down on NAYLE right now, after the sterling (not) example of the class held last summer during Relationships Week. On Friday night, as you know, PTC has its closing "campfire" and then folks scatter to bed for early departures Saturday. I was living in South Tent City. In comes NAYLE class at 930, marching in to cadence. Ok, it's not lights out and quiet hours yet. Well, 10PM and Taps does come, and the youth, now bedded down at the Buster Brown Building, wouldn't shut up. I had to go over after 1030 and ask for a youth leader or adult ... I had planned to be on the road by 7 (500 mile day 1 enroute home), and I wanted some sleep. Well, comes Saturday morning, and the children (term used malice aforethought) are up and shouting at 445 AM. Quiet hours in tent city are until 7 IIRC. If that's the example NAYLE youth participants, youth staff, and program staff have of their program, they can stay out at their camp until Saturday morning for all I care. A Scout is Courteous? Not them.

$100 to cover the cost of the certificate, pocket card, recognition item (lapel pin or necklace), and shadow frame for the certificate and 2 pictures (formal and informal). (shadow boxes for Eagle, etc cost $50). To quote Colonel Sherman T Potter: HORSEHOCKEY! Certificate: We charge nothing for an Eagle Scout to have his certificate processed by National now. Why charge for a Venturing certificate? Is the foil on the embossed seal of 24K gold? Pocket Card: We charge nothing for an Eagle Scout to have his certificate processed by National now. Why charge for a Venturing certificate? Shadow Frame: Ok, there's $50 from Supply Corporation at retail (I assume wholesale to retail is a keystone). Let's assume National price is $25. 2 pictures: With a digital camera around the Council office, that's a nil expense. Even printing digital photos is all but nil anymore. Recognition item: Again, assuming a keystone, Supply Corporation is making money on the deal. So, to me, it's a $100 app processing fee, of which $50 goes for actual merchandise, so $50 goes to a profit center. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My question still stands: What is National going to do with University admission officers and major potential employers that this recognition passes someone else's so what, who cares test? We're asking youth to invest more time and luchre into National's program, and we're also asking more from Council level volunteers (who else is going to do Trainer's Edge?)

$100 to process an application. Right. What's the added value? How is the National Council going to get the word out to colleges, such that Admisssions Officers will see this passing the so what, who cares test? Sorry, from where I sit this is the "GFI" fairy looking how to raise bucks for National.

Barry, ... and sometimes, when the leadership gives something as an option (as the SM in this case did), the youth are going to be someplace else. ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I look first to the SM here. The instructive element from the original poster is: "One Friday the current SM sent out an email asking about the time for Saturday, and then in the next line made the statement that neither is mandatory to attend." The day before the event, and a clear statement that the event is not a must-do. Hardly a BFO that the youth blew it off.

Verbatim, Safety Afloat: http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss02.aspx Safety Afloat Safety Afloat has been developed to promote boating and boating safety and to set standards for safe unit activity afloat. Before a BSA group may engage in an excursion, expedition, or trip on the water (canoe, raft, sailboat, motorboat, rowboat, floating in an inner tube, or other craft), adult leaders for such activity must complete Safety Afloat Training, No. 34159, have a commitment card, No. 34242, with them, and be dedicated to full compliance with all ninepoints of Safety Afloat. 1. Qualified Supervision All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each 10 people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older. All supervisors must complete BSA Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training and rescue training for the type of watercraft to be used in the activity, and at least one must be trained in CPR. It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat. For Cub Scouts: The ratio of adult supervisors to participants is one to five. 2. Physical Fitness All persons must present evidence of fitness by a complete health history from a physician, parent, or legal guardian. Adjust all supervision, discipline, and protection to anticipate any risks associated with individual health conditions. In the event of any significant health conditions, a medical evaluation by a physician should be required by the adult leader. 3. Swimming Ability A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult who is trained as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. In all other circumstances, the person must be a swimmer to participate in an activity afloat. Swimmers must pass this test: Jump feetfirst into water over your head. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes:�sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. This qualification test should be renewed annually. 4. Personal Flotation Equipment Properly fitted U.S. Coast Guard-approved personal flotation devices (PFDs) must be worn by all persons engaged in activity on the open water (rowing, canoeing, sailing, boardsailing, motorboating, waterskiing, rafting, tubing, kayaking, and surfboarding). Type II and III PFDs are recommended. 5. Buddy System All activity afloat necessitates using the buddy system. Not only must every individual have a buddy, but every craft should have a "buddy boat" when on the water. 6. Skill Proficiency All participants in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. (a) For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. (b) Powerboat operators must be able to meet requirements for the Motorboating merit badge or equivalent. © Except for whitewater and powerboat operation as noted above, either a minimum of three hours' training and supervised practice or meeting requirements for "basic handling tests" is required for all float trips or open-water excursions using unpowered craft. (d) Motorized personal watercraft, such as the Jet Ski and SeaDoo, are not authorized for use in Scouting aquatics, and their use should not be permitted in or near BSA program areas. For Cub Scouts:�Canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) are to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing and kayaking, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices. 7. Planning Float Plan Obtain current maps and information about the waterway to be traveled. Know exactly where the unit will "put in" and "pull out" and what course will be followed. Travel time should be estimated generously. Review the plan with others who have traveled the course recently. Local Rules Determine which state and local regulations are applicable, and follow them. Get written permission to use or cross private property. Notification File the float plan with parents or participants and a member of the unit committee. File the float plan with the local council office when traveling on running water. Check in with all those who should be notified when returning. Weather Check the weather forecast just before setting out, and keep an alert weather eye. Bring all craft ashore when rough weather threatens. Contingencies Planning must identify possible emergencies and other circumstances that could force a change of plans. Appropriate alternative plans must be developed for each. For Cub Scouts:�Cub Scout canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting do not include "trips" or "expeditions" and are not to be conducted on running water (i.e., rivers or streams); therefore, some procedures are inapplicable. Suitable weather requires clear skies, no appreciable wind, and warm air and water. 8. Equipment All equipment must be suited to the craft, to water conditions, and to the individual; must be in good repair; and must satisfy all state and federal requirements. Spare equipment or repair materials must be carried. Appropriate rescue equipment must be available for immediate use. 9. Discipline All participants should know, understand, and respect the rules and procedures for safe unit activity afloat. The applicable rules should be presented and learned prior to the outing, and should be reviewed for all participants at the water's edge just before the activity begins. When Scouts know and understand the reasons for the rules, they will observe them. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with the fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judgment, keep the fun from being interrupted by tragedy. Note: For cruising vessels (excluding rowboats, canoes, kayaks, and rafts, but including sailboats and powerboats greater than 20 feet long) used in adult-supervised unit activities by a chartered Venturing crew/ship specializing in watercraft operations, or used in adult-supervised program activity in connection with any high-adventure program or other activity under the direct sponsorship and control of the National Council, the standards and procedures in the Sea Scout Manual may be substituted for the Safety Afloat standards. Reference: Safety Afloat, No. 34368 and in the Online Learning Center ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Commentary: For Cubs going on the lake as a Pack activity, the Pack is obliged to fully implement Safety Afloat. That means physical exams (not a Class 1 parental signoff). That means BSA Swim Test. That means 1 adult for every 5 youth. That means proficiency by the craft operators at least equal to the current MB requirements. That means a thought through Float Plan as an element of your Tour Permit request. If you pass these bars, go for it. If not, contact your friendly Scout Troop to see what support they can give you so you can hurdle over the bars.

Good morning. I don't have an answer, but I know about people in your District who should know (or be able to quickly get) an answer. I'd suggest asking your District Advancement Committee chairman to research this for you. He should be present at your District Roundtable each month. Alternately, ask your CM to have your COR take this question to District Committee meeting, or ask him to ask your Unit Commissioner. The advantages of this are you get the information, but you also start finding out who are the people who help you in your local area

May I ask we all take a step back, and a deep breath? To my fellow regulars, please remember how much we lose in the use of a keyboard vice sound and facial expression? None of us have been perfect Scouters in our time on the boards, certainly not I... Even so, trying to help a Mom and DL make a tough call isn't always easy. To Amy, you can see there are two schools of thought on this challenge. At the end of the day, it's your Den, and your call. All we can do is each give our best thoughts. Let us know how you approach your SM on this.

The proper term for Cubs Camping is Cub Family Camping. I trust that's what you are doing. I also trust someone is a BALOO trained leader. I'd recommend Pack level consolidated kitchen. The more experienced leaders can teach other adults and youth alike. Consolidated kitchen leads to buying by the Pack, and families paying a food fee.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

What scoutldr said!

What Hal said is true. We rarely give yes's or no's. In fact, more than occasionally we don't answer on the first pass, but rather ask for more information. We'll point you to training resources, other Scouting resources on the web (including the National website, which gets better at providing resources all the time), and encourage you on the trail. Like Hal said, though... enjoy the time. It's amazing how fast they grow up!!!

First, I see Ms. Amy, who with her ADL is handling 8 young boys and delivering the promise. Her read of herself and her ADL is 8 is the right max number for them. As Eamonn, Packsaddle and nldscout said before me: Bravo, Ms Amy. Keep delivering the program to these 8. If anything, I'd ask your CM for more resources, such as finding you a Den Chief from a local Troop! There's a reason B-P chose 8 for both the Patrol and the Den: A leader can work directly with a finite number of led folk. Current leadership theory actually has that number at 5-7, but 8 was the going empirical number from B-Ps service in the British Cavalry. As far as growth goes, the Committee Chair and the Cubmaster have responsibilities to the Pack as a whole, to plan for, recruit for, train for, and develop growth. Managing growth by simply assigning new members to the existing structure is not a plan to succeed. It's simply failure to plan, and thus planning for failure. Now, might it be reasonable this fall for your Den and an expansion Webelos Den to meet together several times, so the new DL/ADL/Den Chief team can see some of what "right looks like?" Sure. You do get to establish ground rules, though, even there. BTW, if your CM finds someone who says they can take (12, 14, 16) kids in the Den and asks you to step aside, ask for a Pack Committee assignment, and graciously yield ... and I'll bet even money now you'll be asked for help soon enough.

Welcome to the Forum, Candidate. Bring exactly the list of items furnished you by the Secretary of the Lodge. If you have not received a letter from him, contact your OA Troop Representative yet this Memorial Day weekend. When you get to the campground, do exactly what you are told to do, when you are told to do it.

Just to be clear... Boating for cubs is limited to District/Council events on flat water ...

Here's the G2SS chapter: http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx First, your overall event supervisor needs to take Safe Swim Defense. That's a MyScouting e-learning online course. Second, and this depends on your Council, most aquatics events automatically require you to request a local Tour Permit, and plan your event. Third, if you staff by hiring a commercial pool (neighborhood association/private pool/city park pool) for the event, they provide the support and your responsibility is overall supervision. Fourth, if, however, your unit staffs the event, then we start talking about folks who have taken BSA Lifeguard (a course generally taken at a residential Boy Scout Camp). We're also talking about fully implementing buddy system, ability groups (and appropriate areas of the water), and on and on. Best bet? Rent the pool and staff for the evening.