John-in-KC

Eagle92, Two problems: - What do you do about special needs Scouts who are not medically cleared to backpack? - Backpacking isn't cheap anymore. The cheapest adult pack I saw just now at REI is 179. That doesn't count a fartsack good good for 30F. How do you support affordability? I'm not saying your proposal is a bad idea; on the contrary, I think it should be added to the option layer for life physical activities group ... swimming or bicycling or hiking or backpacking. I just think that even with a Scout being Thrifty, this is a harder badge to earn from just basic economics.

A couple thoughts here: - We have folks who are members of the Far East Council, the TransAtlantic Council, and the International Council (those troops which are for ex-pats in the major capital cities around the world). SHAME ON THEM if those youth do not earn Citizenship in the World as part of their Scouting experience. I can see part of Scout Camp being set aside for an interntational cultural event, or an offsite trip to a significant museum, monument, government facility, or religious shrine. - We do have camps which are relatively near State capitals, and where the predominant youth population come from rural areas. Which is going to get the kid more interested in Citizenship in the Nation? A trip to the local Ag Department field office, or a day trip from Scout Camp to the State Capital, dressed up in their full Class A uniforms? What about if an Air Force Base or an Army Post is close by? I'm not saying teach the merit badge soup to nuts by any means, but one of our core values is to develop citizenship. Look for activities out of the box.

Rick (as in ghermmano), I think part of it is we've not decided the type of outdoor experience we want our youth to have. There's a huge part of our population which participates in the Whelen/Angier (On Your Own in the Wilderness) school of the outdoors: Heavy camping, with cars and trailers substituting for pack animals. OTOH, there are folks in Scouting who insist on the Colin Fletcher (The Complete Walker) school of the outdoors: Exceptionally light camping and backpacking. These two schools aren't necessarily incompatible, but we really need to come together and hammer out the outdoorsman skillsets needed for T-E. Are we doing the right things? Do we emphasize LNT? Do we need a certain amount of discretion to account for region-unique safety rules (remember when National Council published the special rules on fires about 4 years ago, when just about all of the US south of Nebraska was under a burn ban?)? As a training manager, I grew up in the "Systems Approach to Training" development ... the military version of "Instructional Systems Development." The entire topology starts with a single concept: What do you want the learner to have learned, at wgat level of fusion, when he successfully completes the program? When we can clearly talk to that, we can eat the rest of the elephant, one bite at a time. YIS John

Eagle92, As policy, my COUNCIL is mandating SMs/ASMs be fully trained to re-charter for 2010. I don't know what that will mean if a unit doesn't comply.

Rick, And you, Sir, have not been doing ad hominem attacks against Mr Mazzuca, Mr Williams and other National staffers these past eighteen months or so? I submit your responsory is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. When you post using your expertise, you're one tremendous resource. When you diatribe, which in the past year and a half has been about 85% of the time, you're at best a distractor, and at worst a breaker of the Scout Law (Cheeful, Friendly, Courteous). Help all of us. Post with your expertise, not with diatribes.

Best path to a response is a friendly cup of coffee with your Council Commissioner and your Council Advancement Chair. They have the heft to move the draft to Region and to National. Depending on the size of your Council, your SE may also have some heft.

My definition of Very Soon: When Supply Corporation is down to less than one pallet of books in the warehouse.

First of all, Takeaway is not an NPR production. It's a production of PRI, Public Radio International. If you listen to their stuff at all, they are 4-5 notches further to the liberal side than mainline NPR. I used to listen to PRI stuff, I don't anymore. I'm listening to this story right now. I think the opening was just off the wall. I think part of what I heard was that "outdoors people are pro-firearm people." Cabelas, Bass Pro types. My local NPR stations do not use this show, and I am glad they do not.

krb, Can you give us an update, please?

Generally, participation in a work day is more than the 1 hour for Second Class service hours. I have no problem with the project counting both.

Oh, I'll be honest. I still want to see 3 x 5 mile hikes (1959/1965 HBs) for 2d class.

I agree.

I had a post to respond to Rick, but I dumped it. He won't listen.

Wingnut, true... but at the same time, you cannot move them forward, and google does not archive information on the wayback, so you have to know what you're looking for (to some degree) first. It also depends on if your page hit a snapshot window with the wayback.

Not necessarily. Remember, one of the purposes of a Committee is to furnish feedback (it's a gift!! ) to the SM. There's an awful lot of ground for a SM to cover in the final SM conference before advancement. Focus on that which matters most ... the youth member himself.

We're closer than we think. I think rather than semaphore, in this day of aviation based lost person searches, we need to teach all of us standard ground - air emergency rescue procedures, from a fire to the big symbols.

For kenk, Please, can you find out exactly which module of ScoutNet your Council office is using to generate these pre-filled apps? I've talked with my District Director and the Council Advancement Professional (collateral duty of one of the Professionals) and they've both not heard of this... TIA

prairie, If I knew what would work, I'd be entrepeneurial, writing a training package and selling it on consultancy. Instead, I'm as confuzzled as everyone else. So, I'm here helping to brainstorm. I was a kid as we transitioned backcountry operations from the Townsend Whelen and Bradford Angier models (anyone else read "On Your Own in the Wilderness" here?), which emphasized horse packs and full outfit camps, to Colin Fletcher's "The Complete Walker", which emphasized a "house on your back." Both models of camp are still out there: We somewhat derisively call the Whelen/Angier model "car camping" now, but the Fletcher model is what we aspire to. We also have fewer and fewer folk learning fieldcraft from the military. From 1975 to 1995 or so, our Army ran at 788,000 folk. Since 1995, it's been around 500,000. Believe it or not, that's pretty close to historic norms for our "small Army" model... very close to 1/10 of 1%. That's not a lot of folk learning how to live well in the backcountry. So ... the one thing I absolutely concur with here, is we have a need for outdoor education and training of adults. ETA: Scoutldr, disagree. Browse beds? Hello. They were part of 1965 Scoutcraft (that's the book I was T-L under). Trench fires? Cutting saplings? Morse/Semaphore as practical languages? (again giving due recognition to Stosh). 1965 book is a starting point, but the Scoutcraft does need critical evaluation, line by line.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

We still open District Roundtable and Commish every month with Flag, Oath, and Law. Commish we add prayer. No, eghiglie, you're spot on. Memorization is one of the tools which helps keep thoughts fresh.

Our Lodge now does call-outs by Chapter, ahead of our annual 1st induction weekend. I for one still prefer the old-fashioned TAPOUT. Ka-WUMPH! by the Mighty Chief, after having had a runner come up behind you, grab you (you didn't know you were a Candidate until that instant, and run you down to the mighty Chief screaming in your ear all the way. If it was good enough for me 40 years ago, it's good enough for Candidates today.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

This year, HOAC's other Reservation, Theodore Naish, did not have OA inductions during its Boy Scout camping sessions. That was a decision of the former staff professional for the camp. In a few weeks, we'll know what this years Reservation Director is planning for next year. I like Naish every bit as much as I like Bartle. HOAC is truly blessed to have two complete Scout Reservations, and to be able to get as many youth members as we do to Boy Scout Camp. Assuming Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies again become part of Scout Camp at Naish, I'd have no problem recommending them to you, since that was part of your criteria. As a Scout Camp, I have no problem recommending Naish as well as Bartle. Of course, I'm also delighted at our Webelos Camp and Bear Family Resident Camp operations.

It's called the Board of Review. If every BOR asked the Scouts: "If you were one of us, what is the one thing you would not change about our Troop?" AND "If you were one of us, what is the one thing you would change about our Troop?" Then, over time, you will get a good sensing about where the youth think the Troop should be going. There are some young people who should be called in for non-advancement BORs, to get a sensing of how they think the Troop is doing. Those people are the youth leadership. Ask them what they see. BTW, the best time for some of these sessions: At a campout, at the Friday campfire, over a cup of cocoa and a S'maco (s'mores in the Dutch using a flour tortilla instead of a graham cracker). Don't do paperwork. Paperwork is boring.

prairie, Gern actually nailed it. There are many, many folks out there who neither understand, respect, nor enjoy the outdoors. Look at the suburbanites who invade the ski slopes for a few hours each winters day, then retreat to the lodges ... or never even get out of the lodges. The mindset of my father's generation (the greatest generation), where so many American men spent time in the outdoors because they had to, but discovered they loved it... is almost gone.

JASM SPL Why are you the one calling out "every boy has a job?" Sounds to me like the Adult-Run Method. Isn't that your SPL's job? An alternative is to have them plan somewhat independent activities of the troop, using a venture patrol ... and they are up, fed, and out of camp early on. Their example of getting it done will inspire the younger members.

Gern, Only one problem: Restricts training to the summer months, or Christmas vacation. State mandated K-12 attendance laws ... you aren't going to get past them. BTW, since we've debate WFA for quite a while here, "First Aid for the Leader", covering all the essential skills to include CPR.