Stosh

I've done that before, too. How many times have you been married?

I know of no one that has the luxury of 4 or 5 Saturdays in a row that are free for such an activity in the summer time.

For the few dedicated scouts that's a pretty impressive level of involvement, but it would seem that the teamwork, group dynamic, patrol method doesn't seem to reflect enough boys to ad hoc even one patrol on a regular basis. Doing COPE with boys not in your patrol does okay for the individual but nothing for what COPE was designed to do, build relationships between members of a team. Yes a few individual boys might be excelling at the personal development processes of scouting but leadership actually by definition needs others to follow, therefore expecting some sort of group dynamic process, i.e. the patrol structure/method. By ad hoc patrols, one never really builds any team work, any bonding, any camaraderie, the glue kinda thing that holds a band of brothers together. 8 boys that all work together to get all 8 boys to Eagle is a powerful testimony to the patrol method. If one is constantly switching out the players, it somewhat defeats the purpose. If only half the boys are showing up on a regular basis that's really not defining a strong showing and if NSP dynamics are used, would really cripple the operation of the patrol. So if each patrol had 2 new boys in it and 4 didn't show up, it would hardly show any impact on the operation of the patrols. But if half the new boys didn't show up for the activities in the NSP it would make a noticeable and necessary focus of attention for the boys using the NSP and the patrol method. Hey, Guys! You weren't there for the outing, what's up, the patrol needs you for the competitions. vs. Where's the two new guys? I dunno. Well, we have competitions to do, we can get by without them. Yes I do a fair amount of drinking coffee at scout events, but I do the bulk of my work watching and listening to the interaction and interplay among the boys. Who's doing what? Why aren't boys coming to activities. Shouldn't the Venture Patrol be pushing themselves a bit more? Next year the older regular patrol might have to become a second Venture Patrol. NSP isn't really progressing this year, Anyone notice why? Has the TG or PL asked for help? Might want to keep an eye on that. These are the things that are constantly being processed by myself and my ASM. It's quite easy with only one patrol of young boys, but it was a real challenge when I had 4 patrols and trying to keep tabs on everything that is going on. Just this past weekend, with my new Webelos II boys going to come into the troop. Who's the leaders, who's going to need extra help, Are my second year boys capable to being an effective TG? What happens if the older scouts aren't selected as the PL? What suggestions are going to need to be brought out. How far should things struggle before some intervention will have to be done...if any. Yeah, I joke about the SM's coffee but I do tend to wander around observing the boys, watching and learning so that if asked for help I don't need a lot to get up to speed on the issues. I don't know as if all SM's are really doing all that much. But with all that I do along these lines, I really doing have a lot of time to worry about who's in what patrol, and who's the PL, etc. That's all written down and can be reviewed, but for the most part if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Because every adult knows that they can do it better, more efficiently and a lot quicker, I have to spend a lot of the time keeping them from trying to fix things that ain't broke. So are my older scouts teaching the younger scouts? Sure, but the younger scouts are teaching each other as well. I constantly hear this hype about older scouts teaching the younger boys when the younger boys do rather well teaching themselves. I had one of my quiet Webelos II boys who figured out the bowline that they had to learn and for 45 minutes he worked with the others in the Den until each one of them was proficient in tying the knot. No one asked him to teach, he just thought it was a good idea. Do I have a future Instructor here or a future PL? Probably both. How would I know any of this unless I stepped back out of the situation and learned by watching and listening?

Sorry to hear about this, but in this day and age the minority whiners are the winners. If the police didn't show up on your door step, I'm assuming it is a bogus charge. Someone will eventually spill the beans, but I don't know if there is any real recourse, at least I've never heard of any.

This is nothing more than socialism in disguise. Person A works 50-60 hours for a salary and benefits. Law changes Now Person A works 25-30 hours receives no benefits which he will need to pay for or get fined by the government. Now Welfare Person B works the other 25-30 hours, receives no benefits which he will need to pay for or get fined. He finds that his welfare check is more than the part-time job so he quits. Person C works for a temp agency and will come in and cover the 25-30 hours and get skills. They can stay temporary benefit-free forever if they want to. Now Person A needs the money so they take on a second part-time job that doesn't pay benefits, but now the cost of daycare is covered. Except for the loss of productivity on the part of the business, this will hurt only the employee(s). Basically they will lose their benefits and need to go to the government for increased retirement and medical assistance. That means the employee through payroll deduction will lose even more with an increase in "taxes" skimmed off by the government to pay for the extra cost of providing benefits. The biggest boon to the increase in minimum wage is the higher take the government gets on the deal. You make more money, you get bigger payroll deductions and pay higher taxes, either way the government wins. So how much more money is the government anticipating in getting at the increase income of time and a half increase in income per person? Another increase in payroll deductions and income tax revenues. The government is ecstatic

Hedge, in no way am I disputing your process, I only identify areas where we differ. My first troop was majorly adult led, troop method. It was the envy of other troops in the council. If one wanted to get into major high adventure scouting this was the unit to join. They had 40+ boys 10 miles out into the country and the next closest troop was in town and they were struggling to get the 5 boys needed to recharter each year. So adult led, troop method can and does work. No doubt about it. It's just not my cup of tea and it's not how I see BSA promoting it's program. It's a leadership program and this troop produced a lot of Eagles most of which were not leaders. Hedge, in no way am I disputing your process, I only identify areas where we differ.

My boys don't do any speechifying at all. As a matter of fact they normally don't say anything when it comes to leadership selection. They just get put into the job because the boys in the patrol recognize what the boy is already doing. They get put into PL positions and stay their as long as they function as one who takes care of the patrol. As long as that happens they are more than happy to follow him. Initially some of the boys get selected based on popularity, but that last only a week or two before they replaced by the scout who's really doing the job anyway. This applies to any and all POR's If you ain't doing the job, someone who will do it will replace you.

Okay, Eagle 94, I'll play Devil's Advocate for you too.

Seriously, Hedge, I see your point of view and as a UC, see it in many troops working quite well, but I also see a lot of boys dumping scouts after a couple of years because they never really get a chance to break out and do some really neat things unless they break up their patrols and ad hoc into high adventure contingents or going the Venturing route. They have to abandon their patrol method to do either of these things. Many years ago I was at a scout summer camp in a location far from my ingrown area of the world. There was a group of boys in the next site over that didn't do any MB's didn't do any activities, just sat around, went up to the mess hall, came back, sat around the fire, went for a meal, came back hung out.... etc. You get the picture. I got curious and went over and visited with them. It would seem that they were all Eagle Scouts, they had been buddies since Cub Scouts and this was their last hurrah summer camp before breaking up and going their individual ways in the world. It was that afternoon sitting with those Eagles that proved to me it is feasible, it is possible, it is the right thing to do and so I quit as ASM of an adult-dominated, troop-method program, found a struggling troop of 5 boys and went to work learning all I could on patrol method, servant leadership and functional adventures for the boys! As a boy I had a bad experience in scouting. I told myself I would never do to a boy what had been done to me. I didn't realize it, but that was exactly what I was doing. Not any more. My boys deserve the opportunity to have the adventure that BSA promises through the boy led, patrol method program. And that's what my boys get, the opportunity to be the best they can and want to be and that's how I see my job as SM.

Well, one of your boys learned something about the political system....

Once a month by a council committee....

Not abiding by the rules is not limited to just the units.....

Funny you should point that out @@King Ding Dong the only time my boys do things as a total group IS THE FLAGS, otherwise they are off doing their own patrol thingy. The irony of my situation is that with a new troop just starting out and the small numbers of boys, I miss the variety of different patrols all doing different things. I could always count on the older boys doing some challenging outings that I got to go on and the younger boys struggling to get themselves established as a patrol and seeing the excitement when it all starts to click. This kaleidoscope of activity was always fun to watch. As the numbers grow, we'll get there again.

And some councils will not accept an Eagle application without them even if they are not required.....

Maybe the inexperienced boys should be in a patrol of their own, take the Canoeing MB and develop their skills as a group rather than dumbing down the rest of the patrols. Oh? Someone has mixed the boys all up? Well in that case dumbing down is the only option. Older boys tired of same old same old gentle float down the river for the 4th time this season? Is it any wonder to see attendance falling off well before the summer's over, but hey, the new boys will be experienced so they can take over next year's new boys and repeat the pattern yet another year. So was it the adult's decision that a monthly campout should include the whole troop. If so why? Why can't the monthly outings be reflective of the patrol method? Or is the patrol method like the good china? It gets dragged out only on special occasions?

Welcome to the forum, we were just discussing how important it is to have a Scout's perspective on many of the issues we discuss. Wade in on anything that interests you.

@@desertrat77 But one forgets the secret weapon! Adults from 30-60 are the old foggies, the parents, the washed up clueless ones. Those 60+ somehow get exempt from that. I have noticed that within the last 5-10 years the kids are more receptive to the same ideals I lived by 30 years ago. I haven't changed, but the perception has. I'm thinking it's either the Santa Claus Syndrome or the Grandpa Syndrome working for me. Then again it might just be my charming personality.... or it might just be that I heavily promote and protect the boy-led, patrol-method operation of a Boy Scout troop. Or last, but not least, they realize I've been around the block enough that they aren't going to pull something new over my eyes. Take your pick, I'm thinking it might just be my charming personality..... I do spend a lot of time listening and watching and I'm thinking the boys realize this. I don't raise my voice and I don't react the way they think I should. I would really like to know more about the 2016 Scout youth of today. I know what's important to my boys, but I don't necessarily know what's on the minds of the boys in the small towns and big cities around the country.

Title it something like "From the Scout perspective" "Boy Led" or something to catch the eye of the younger crowd. All topics must be originated by Scouts under 18 and the adults have to majorly behave themselves if they post in it. Like @@desertrat77 says, something that doesn't make it feel like the kid's table.

Seriously? If Scouts of any age want insight into what goes on in the minds of the adults running their show, what better place than to be lurking on this forum? We've had a couple introduce themselves and post a bit, but I would like to see more youth participation on THIS forum. I know it's a stretch with the name SCOUTER.COM, but I'm all for maybe opening a category that caters to the under 18 group! I for one would like to hear their concerns!

Having done 50-milers afloat many times, I can assure everyone that pinballing down the river is a great incentive to learn to do it right. Toss in a few rocks to hang up on with a heavy canoe load and the boys will figure it out on their own. I have gone to the "rescue" of many canoeists out there and they might ask for a bump or pull here or there, but if someone has to get out and haul a canoe off a log, they will all agree that if they got themselves into the mess they'll get themselves out. I used to get out and steer traffic through some of the rougher rapids, but now the older boys do it. They didn't get any lessons on it, but if I had to shove their canoe off a rock or two, they knew what to do the next year and eventually I worked myself out of a job. Same for backpacking..... "Where's your mess kit Mr. Stosh?" "I don't carry one." I have a cup and a spoon for the occasional "meal" otherwise I carry trail mix and jerky. How many calories in a cup of trail mix? Now you know how much to take along. So we leave the inexperienced ones at home. That means they will still be inexperienced next year, too. Now there's a great long-term plan. How many people haven't had a bit of pain breaking in new hiking boots? So why is it any different with breaking in new scouts?

Nope, but I'll put it on my "to read" list. I have found that by being a CA, it has done wonders with building leadership in the troop as well. It's a bit easier to trust the decisions of Venturing youth than it is Boy Scout youth, but over the years I have loosened the reins in the troop and what I was finding in leadership in the crew was naturally developing in the troop then as well. With starting a new troop it is extremely important to develop leadership to boys as young as 11 years of age. That's kinda dangerous, but if one gets over their own fears and lets the boys go, it's quite an enjoyable adventure to see it can be done. It was kinda funny this past weekend with the AOL pre-cross-over Webelos boys. One of the boys is on meds! He interrupts, he's loud, he knows no social boundaries, he's perpetually moving, he gets up at 5:30 am and wants to start breakfast. The adults were sitting around watching the boys pack up the camp on Sunday morning and it would seem that he consensus of them all wanted their boy to be more like this kid. After all at any given time, there's at least one if not two other scouts in his wake. If anyone wishes to know who's going to be the next natural leader for the troop, just sit back and watch. I had one Venturing boy that refused to accept any leadership in the crew. Never ran for office, always turned it down if elected, fought me tooth and nail, even toe-to-toe. Yet he begrudgingly wore the NCO rank of the crew and even took on a lieutenant position at a national event. Went on to be squad leader in his ROTC group in college and is now a deputy with the county Sheriff's Department. One of the reasons after 45+ years I haven't burned out is because I am constantly renewed by people like this. Shut up, sit back, watch and learn, these kids have taught me more than any BSA SM handbook ever could. Too much leadership? Yep, probably!

Yeah, what @@CNYScouter said. Adults need training on this as well!. If one is using this as a prep for Boy Scout cross-over, one might want to consider having the DC move with the troop into the TG position of the NSP in the new troop so that that bonding will help the new guys get adjusted to Boy Scout life. They will come into the troop with someone they already know and look up to. Any DC bringing in his Den to my troop was given this option if he wanted it.

And if the boys aren't quite ready, they'll struggle a bit, maybe not enjoy it quite as much, but they will learn a lot more than if the adults do it all for them. Then they will learn nothing. And if the boys aren't ready? In the description above, it's the adult's fault. In my case, it'll be the boys fault. I can live with that. They either win or they learn.

There is DC Training that can be done on-line. That's a good start for the boy. Then the Pack and Den should do an orientation for the boy to make sure he is aware of all the expectations of responsibility he will need to do to help out in that specific den. No DL should assume that a DC is going to walk in and perform miracles for his den. It take a bit of time to get everyone on the same page and this is where training will really help out. Even if the Pack doesn't have specific training, some sort of expectation orientation from the DL would be very helpful for the DC. I don't know if it is still true or not, but there use to be different training for Cub Scout DC's and Webelos DC's. Whatever effort one puts into getting the DC up and running is worth it. Even with a couple of bumpy starts, all my DC's have done a really nice job for their Dens and often stay with the job for 2 and 3 years.