anarchist

Merlyn, merlyn, merlyn... "I posted because"...even your answer is dishonest...but then you have no reason to be honest do you?

But I wanna wear my "Duck" Tape patrol patch and my 'untrainable' arm patch!

LEO G, Uniforms can be found at many thrift stores and yard sales cheap! If you call around to troops/Scout Masters in your area or visit round table and let BOY SCOUTERERS know your plight, they will generally put out a call in their troops for old uniforms...and you may find this a great source of 'retired cub uniforms'. (Asking Packs doesn't work as well as asking Boy scouts) Some times CO's set up funding for the troop to help our 'needy' scout families some time units do...in our troop it is a group of scout parents who have taken the pledge that no scout in need will be left behind. good luck

Scout John, Time is short for this summer but here goes: First, Lets start positive, Many Camps, Councils and districts (and a few COs) have camperships available, the first order of business is find out what you have available. Second what kind of community are you in? Urban, suburban, Rural?... and what is the general economy like in your neck of the woods? I mention this stuff not to be nosey but to be able to offer suggestions... Suburban? kids can cut grass, deliver flyers, shovel snow, recycle (one kid I know talked his school into letting him put recycle cans in the lunch room and teachers lounge...he cleared ten dollars a week recycling aluminium!), dig flower beds...cultivate backyard gardens...dog sit, baby sit, watch houses and take in mail for vacationing neighbors, lots of stuff. But it is on their own. Troop can set up 'yard sales' where they 'procure' a large parking lot and 'rent' parking stalls to the public for a community wide yard sale (they can then offer to haul unsold junk to the landfill for a small fee), soda-popcorn sales at community events, sell donuts (and coffee?)in front of the local stores or at the ball fields weekend morningetc. In the country? paint fences and barns, clean stables, clear fence lines, feed horses when owners are on vacation, sell stuff at county fairs and town parades and festivals, find a VFW that wants to have flags put up along the towns main street for Vets Day or Memorial day or Fourth of July, car washes...use corners, gas stations, school parking lots church lots...or even go door to door... I know another energetic young man who convinced the Pastor of the church to allow him to skip church one Sunday inorder to wash cars of church members (particularly the older members), while they were in services! He sent flyers (about his need for camp funds and his plan to wash cars) around and had the folk park in a line behind the church and during services. He washed about twenty cars...and another five or six after church...then surprised the pastor by donating 25% to the church relief fund. In 'close in' suburbs boys can run errands and do small odd jobs for neighbors. Some communities encourage home owners to stencil address numbers (painted) on curb lines...little paint + few stencils = good project; service and funds! last...if you are thinking of this summer where time is short...and if camperships are available, perhaps the parents would agree to accepting the grants if the boy makes and pays what he can before camp and then continue to work after camp and repays (whoever) the balance...It could just work... In our troop we have a policy that all boys who want will go to camp and several of us 'find' work; gardening, weeding, raking whatever to suit the boy so he feels he earned his way to camp. good luck hope to hear how it is going

Merlyn boy, It must be terribly sad to have to spend your free time trying to stick pins in BSA dolls. The fact that you are not only a sore sport but a genuine horses puttoot must drive you nutz when you look in the mirror each morning. Keep up the good work though, we all need examples to show our kids just whatkind of people we don't want them to grow up to be! God Bless, and try not to suck on too many lemons today.

Tut, Tut, merlyn...your thin skin is showing laddie. I saw no where in Eds post a reference to you...though not being front and center probably gets your shorts in a bind. Ed's post followed Fuzzy Bear's which didn't even refer to you (again, must get your goat to be ignored)...so logically speaking Ed had to be refereing to the molester...right? so the only thing I can see backfiring is your subconscious (?) desire to be in the center of the spot light. Your mother loves ya boy!

BadenP, of course it can't be tolerated...thats why BSA has been working on 'two deep', 'child protection', videos, literature and training! It's why troops and districts and councils try to have 'checks' on progress and programs...BSA will never be perfect unlike M-Leroy we are human with all the bagage that goes with it. but that is not Merlyn boys intent...his goal is to hurt, harm, distroy... all because he can't get us to do 'it' his misguided way. love ya boy, just keep stir'n things up it keeps us on our toes! And it gives folks like you, with no good purpose, something to do.

Once again, (for the third time I think) Dug and now Eagle Dad...what is the purpose of a BoR? what does a Scout run BoR give any of the boys? As to the examples scary or not-they were reasons for the program as BSA outlines, and your (Eagledad's) backhand slap at our (my?)'great' programs of older boys is unappreciated and unkind and I will not dignify with further comment. Your position of boys not trusting strange adults is not founded in reality or practice...ask police phycologists who deal with battered and abused children...they the kids certainly are going to talk to a strange adult (who by the way in this case is an adult who is not strange but a regular figure ...committe member-remember) before talking to the abuser or in the abusers presence... You have taken away (from the CO and the troop committee)a formal method for the troop committee to check on the health safety and progress of the program. nuff said. good scouting

AH, Merlyn_LeRoy, God Bless you me boy...never a good day without a dark cloud or two! BSA isn't perfect...like you, but then you knew that all along.

Gosh UncleG, if I stepped on your toes I didn't mean it...sorry! What I tried to do, was draw a point that the many "don't add -don't subtract requirements crowd" are constantly driving home...if a boy gets his ticket punched you can't stop him from being an Eagle even if it means he was a Paper Eagle. And sorry but I do not buy the statement that the young lad can't scam his way to the eagle...I see boys, every day, manipulate adults left and right...its part of growing up in America (ask the advertizing council or wall street) and remember...frankly its not my job to add or subtract...or to object if I think he is a 'paper eagle'...nor do I share any guilt...if there is any guilt to share..Remember too, if the boy goes through the motions and gets his ticket punched (NO WHERE, IN ANY REQUIREMENT DOES IT SAY HE HAS TO BE DOING IT FOR THE "RIGHT REASONS") look it up and tell me I am wrong. WE HOPE and pray that he learns along the way what the right reasons are...but for now "cause dad wants me to" or it looks good on my Naval Academy application work as well as any for REAL reasons/motivation (note:not necessarily true reasons)... And finally Uncle, I took KS's original post as remarking on a phenomena he was seeing in his troop and I was replying based on my experience in my troop and district...as to what I saw and what I would prefer in our(-MY) program...I was not commenting on your Eagle effort- frankly, none of my business...In the end, I would love to see Eagles stay 'til they age out (preferably in very old age, in a rocking chair...sipping camp coffee...) nuff said.

Dug, The point seems to be missed... One of the greatest reasons for a committee (or even a parent) operated BoR is to check troop progress and uncover potential problems... Example one: Tenderfoot candidate is being bullied by a star scout...is he going to say something with that Star scout on his rank board??? Example two: Second Class candidate feels the Scout Master (or an Assistant) has been unfair and is slowing his progress down...He wants to be the youngest (yuck) Eagle in the council and the Scoutmasters son is sitting the board...again will the boy speak freely...? Example three: Boys running the show are not giving the youngest boys the attention and support the feel they need or deserve and the SM is in the "High Adventure" mode where all the older boys are having a great time and the committee sees lots of 16-year-old 'smiley faces' but the younger scouts feel lost...are the individual Committee Members going to get the complete picture of the program by watching an activity...or even three activities???? The Scout Master is reporting lots of canoe trips and 15 mile hikes so all is well???? Example four: PLC is the planning board for the activities. A strong SPL plans lots of activities he wants and lets the younger patrol 'eat scraps' will the committee know this???? Example five: Patrol leader is brother of SPL. He is completely unfair in selecting duty roster jobs on boy always in getting K-P, clean-up, wood collection or latrine duty... He wants fair treatment but the SPL ignors him and the Scout Master is indifferent...isn't the BoR his best chance to be listened too? Rather than having to appoach an adult on the side at an activity, in the BoR he has 3 or 4 adults who are not from the 'program side' and who are there primarily to hear his take on the troops 'health' and his satisfaction with the program...Honestly, which is the better way? Example six: Three scouts on BoR hear a brave young lad tell them they are bullies, or lack even minimal skills in teaching or are simply boring jerks running an unfair program...are they going to address the scouts concern to the commitee??? Dug, lets be real here, ok. Example seven: God Help us a boy is being abused by a Scouter... he is not outgoing, his parents 'can't communicate' with him and he goes into a BoR and the Scouters son is on the board...or he seeks out another Scouter (individually-remember your previous reply?) The Scouter doesn't believe him...It happens you know? and the abuse is not reported...with three or four adults on the board He is more likely to at least get a hearing...don't you agree? enough said, I do not think you are a 'rogue' unit, though you seem to take some pride in being mistaken for one. Unfortunately, I see your group as being stuck in a wrong course and too proud or (?) to really look deep at what you think you are accomplishing...sitting BoRs has little pactical value for the scouts sitting the board and it takes practical value away from the young men needing experience interacting with adults in a semi formal setting (read helps them in dealing with us strange (weird?) merit badge councilors who may not be members of the troop... I wish you well and I hope the chip eventually falls off... Yours in Scouting (YIS) anarchist

again partial 'factoids and mis-quotes' as well as fear tactics and histrionocs... the observations are there (here?) Check them out, and make your own decision...We make (made) ours... still, I have not heard from Kelty...and I already used my son's CD player and back pack for a proto type...now where is his cell phone?????

Sounds great to me Sir Scoutalot (love the name) We are going out of council again this year and the discounted cost is $230 per boy! And this dad counts that as a bargain. Last resident soccer camp number one son attended cost us $650 plus spending money.... This is the one feature in BSA that is truely a bargain as well as a blessing! (whew, being nice to BSA is really hard on my system)

relax wingnut...was a typo...some times my slow fingers (both of them) out pace my even slower mind... should have read: "the son of that leader...." sorry for the fuss...

Dug, you didn't answer my questions on your troops reasons for BoRs (the scouts on the boards and all) Scouts were 'taken' off the BoRs (in the long ago past)in part, due to massive nation wide complaints of perceived bias, variable levels/difficulty of 'skills' testing (fairness)and other unseemly complaints... The BSA position (as my feeble mind comprehends) is that BoRs should be a give and take between the Adults supporting the Troop operations and the Scouts standing for rank. It is a mutual exchange to determine just where the scout is in his scouting career, both achievement wise and mentally. It is NOT a retesting of skills, (although, those who have followed my posts on this subject know I like to test scout skills and would like to do so in BoRs). Note here that SMs and ASMs are not permitted by BSA to sit on the boards and in many if not most lower rank BoRs are not to be in the room during the boards. This is to allow the free flow of information from the scout as to how he feels about the program and the people running it both scouts and scouters (see any problems with either scouts or SMs/ASMs serving now?) Dug, the perceived benefit to the scouts sitting on the BoRs seems to me to be vastly outweighed by the possible loss of open communication and possibly the loss of a young scouts basic right to be heard. Recently, I asked on of my favorite BoR questions to a second class candidate, "if you could change one thing about this troop's operation, what would it be? Many boys are totally stumped by this question...but this boy without missing a beat said he would like the instructors to do more interactive teaching (read hands on teaching )...where each boy got plenty of time actually doing the skill rather than being lectured. Dug, this is a very minor 'issue' but I can't help wondering if a scout who had taught this youngster had been sitting the BoR, would this very young scout have been 'brave enough' to speak his mind? If the issue had been really, 'powerful', (say violence, abuse... you can fill in the blank) what would the boy do with one of the perpetrators sitting across the table? I wonder, don't you? More significantly, Dug, your troop committee misses a great oportunity to assess the quality and the direction of the program...not filtered by the SM/ASM reports but through the eyes of the real 'customers/consumers'. Dug, Think on it a while...we are not being confrontational or 'by the book' here... nor are we threatened by your 'difference' we simply think your troop is missing out on some great interactions... My username should tell you what I think about arbitrary rules and regs...but this part of BoRs I think BSA got right... I would still like to test the heck out of the little buggers!

DARN! DARN! DARN! this is for 5570xr2 and starwolfmom: the pack doesn't have to do anything...IF you are willing to do it. Why wait on the slow pokes? Den Leaders can use the helps and run a stellar program...in many cases other Dens will start to follow! That said...not every Den Leader needs the helps. My eldest son (now teetering on the edge of a being a 'death-bed eagle), MANY years ago had a den leader who seemed like he could bearly (sorry) read...He was a construction worker who was very uncomfortable around people who thought they were his "betters'. He never knew what a 'program help' was. BUT THIS MAN WAS GREAT...they did arts, crafts, built things, took bikes apart (cost me a new bike),rocketry, took trips and went camping. Almost all of HIS boys got ARROW of Light, and they maxed out on Webelos activity pins. Three of the six boys have made EAGLE and a forth (I hope) will soon follow them! So the helps are not the answer...just helps! examples...Teach your boys a skit...REALLY TEACH THEM! You are Clint Eastwood looking for a gold statue here! Drill them, tell them they are gonna knock everyones eyes out IF THEY WORK HARD TO GET IT RIGHT...They need to be HAMS, to act it up! then at the next pack meeting (get there a little early) inform, (don't ask- assume!) the CM that your guys have a skit and where in the program would he like to give you a few minutes. (THIS IS WHY the guys have got to do it right!) If they can 'DO IT RIGHT' and everyone hears and understands and enjoys... it should only take a couple of meetings of this before other dens want equal time... Or bring in some boys scouts from the local troop to do a few skits to show how it is done... - do some theme work, set up a table at the next Pack meeting (again early) right next to the meeting room door so every parent sees what your kids are doing. -announce to the pack during awards time, just what YOUR guys are gonna be doing in the next month...watch the eyes start moving around the room as they ask themselves, do they even know what they are doing next week(!). bet if your guys have fun others will follow! finally, I got sucked into this "movement" when my younger son joined and I saw he was not getting anything my older boy had gotten...It wasn't right and by Baden Powell, I could do something about it! I used some helps and discarded others...I am sure I did not do as good a job as my friend did, but it wasn't half bad either...now, I still help with the Pack and have been on the troop committee for eight years...be open, be creative, be fun! good scouting!

they should have covered those kind of things...In fast start, Basic and YP! Leaders are not supposed to be ALONE with boys other than their own children. TWO deep is for events so that there is never a question of a single adult being alone with a boy... It would be nearly impossible to drive troops anywhere if you needed two adults for every vehicle. JUST NOT ONE SCOUT IN A CAR WITH ONE ADULT LEADER unless the scout is a son of one of the leaders... glad you got your answer!

Heck Eamonn, It's not even a matter of improving the program...though that would be nice! Its a matter of National using its size and status to ADVERTIZE Scouting... Nationally, to bring in more 'customers' and income and sponsors etc...Saturday Morning TV PSAs would be a great place to start... Program impovements require guts, particularly if they are dramatic changes...They probably have way too many Attorneys on staff to do anything creative toward impovement... But I am almost sure that if the National office would support more positive advertizing the units out there (twits like me and all) could deliver... As to growth...my area is growing like a fast cancer and Scouting is fairly healthy...many of us would love to grow more UNITS...but guess what, if you ask council for a 'sales package' for say a potential CHARTER ORGANIZATION... THEY GOT NOTHING! AN application and pamphlet with 10 minute tape for the COR. We should at Least have a SLICK color glossy package to give to churches, community groups, Fire Hall, rescue squads, clubs, VFWs, Lodges, and more...Good gosh...is any one out there in Pro Scouting Land really thinking about real growth??? rant over(This message has been edited by anarchist)

ahh the problems of young eagles... Love the term deathbed eagles! would rather have active, 17 year old 'death bed' heading scouts in our program tah watch the 'ticket puncher', 'paper eagle' blow through the program and leave at 141/2... the question to ask a boy when he starts really working on Eagle, is Why he wants to be an Eagle...look him in the eyes when you do it...I usually see panic (think deer in the headlights) or wheels turning (think- "now, what does this guy want me to say") rarely do I hear, "its something I've had my sites set on for a while now and I think the effort will make me a better scout and a better person..." Those that get it a go...were/are only thinking of themselves and the immediate future. Rarely is a young eagle mature enough to realty appreciate the "why" of doing something the rest of us hold in such high esteem.... Eagles out there! Go to a mirror and look for the boy who earned that eagle... What was on his mind at 14, 15, 16, 17 towards the thought of 'giving back'? Think hard and honest...at those ages, we usually think in the short term...finish something and move on...perhaps thats what most young Eagles still think... Perhaps in the future Scouting will rise up and smack him in the face (the usual wake up call is having a Cub Scout aged boy in the family)Perhaps not...our job is to do our best...more more no less. thats why I'd rather have the death bed Eagles (LOVE THAT TERM)than the younger lads.... BUT I think the entire "Life to Eagle" process needs to be rethought in terms of retention (theres that "R" word again!)

MEKANIC13, welcome aboard! questions: Where are you? How much do you have to spend? (as Eamonn indicated wood can be had free if you look, ask, and work for it! 'course it depends on how much and what sizes on material you want and can handle.)

Badgerface, 1.Why do you never incorporate monthly outings into meetings? 2.who sets theme and plans for the meetings? 3.what is the form of each meeting, section by section? 3.how are your skill classes taught? 4.how large and how long is each class? 5.remembering the "old days", what is being done differently? answer these questions and you will be on the way to your goal.

Dug, I am still wondering why they sit on boards? In your troop what do you think the boards duties are??? Hint: Boards are not a test...(another hint: ? why do SMs and ASMs not sit boards?)...Just guessing here ...you motives are good, your purpose is different...

If you are going to use the first class first year program you have to understand that what you will be doing is running a parallel program to the troop program...You need to milk each troop activity for its possible program sign offs...and have fun. Nearly all your boys need to go to summercamp and participate in the brownsea programs. Pass the swim test earn the swimming merit badge as well as a few more... and have fun...You need to take extra time at meetings to frame its activities towards sign off opportunities...and have fun... As EagleInKy says, have the boys set their goals...show them what you have to offer, make it available and talk to each boy see what he wants to do...them each moth do a scoutmaster conference and update the progress toward the boys goal...with him as the guide... (seems like I've heard this before?????must be the old head injury acting up) PM me with and email address and I'll see if the Asm in charge of our NSPs can send me some of his stuff. We start off with a bang during a shakedown campout two weeks after the NSPs are set up...the boys work towards sign offs in about half of their tenderfoot requirements. No older scouts except the instructors and Troop Guides... anarchist

Excuse me!????! Has anyone asked the troop??? Even if the boy(s) was truely ready for the AoL in NOVEMBER is the troop ready for the boy??? Our New Scout Patrol (NSP) system and our troop calendar simply does not anticipate NSPs until March...we are still working on the last crop of NSPs and have not selected the next group of guides... and the Webelos who showed up on the 'door step' would not fit in with the existing NSPs who are 'now' roughly 70% second class and 20 % first class...and running there own show (shakily perhaps) but still operating as a 'less-guided' patrol with PLs of their own and quite a bit of camping under their belts. It seems you are in quite the hurry, but is it right for all and does the troop have the flexibility to accomodate you? I know ours wouldn't...

lets see... why should anyone see that as threatening? and whats the point of having boys sit BoRs??? and last (just a little salt rub here), if you didn't toss it in everyones face... who in this forum would give a hoot? yawn...get'n late