Gunny2862

F Scouter do you have a better rebuttal source than that? Okay, I really love that quote and hope I can still use it but I'm willing to see it as a folk wisdom thing. I am willing to see it as a colloquialism rather than an attributable statement but see that source as someone with an axe to grind rather than a good argument. I'm going to go look at snopes.

Aye, but with thine hook installed I must forsooth forestall the aforementioned playeth of mock combat.

uz2bnowl's comments on flexing the boot while polishing and the edge dressing are excellent points! And I have used the clear Kiwi neutral(clear) polish as a topcoat.

I like scotts answer.

Yes Bob, what did the new kid say and or do?

Continuing... CalicoPenn, and you are also right about what we think people know. The tent comment was spot on - I think to myself, "What could they have been thinking" even without the metal there is the possible electrical hazard if the tent material got wet from rain, and the combustibility of the tent material if the wire is warm or falls, and the fact that you are under a wire - even if it is a permanent install, and not an expo install, it could still fall on the tent. That was just crazy. And I love your last paragraph, no really, notice no sarcasm warning. "We need more than just skills training. We need training in "common sense" (which becomes common when we are exposed to it over and over and over again), we need to make sure we aren't glossing over what we think is obvious (so what if they've heard it 50 times before, a 51st time won't hurt), and maybe some training on humbleness (is that a word?) - we all need to be humble enough to be able to take suggestions from others who probably know a little something something about things that we just aren't aware of." Scotteng, I would love to be a trainer, and before my SM made a decision recently, was the Committee post I was looking into - realizing of course that I was still short on a) having been even exposed to the BSA way and b) being trained for my primary position as an ASM. Both things I am trying to rectify. And think that part of my job with the boys is, to train when they a) want help, b) are trying to kill themselves and NEED help, and c) can't see the Scouting trail and need a little guidance. Gern, no arguments, 1 question. Are consultations with a local expert on weather and water and mapping multiple water options prior to setting out, not as good as having the expert along but, reasonable precautions to your first two scenarios. orennoah, but is your first aid current, do you know how to operate an AED if you are lucky enough to be near one when you need it? Or is brought in to you? If you are operating off of your prior knowledge and not staying current then you MAY be part of the problem -probably not. But your point of the time commitment is valid and does go back to an earlier question of mine, Is it sufficient to have one qualified leader on a trip? Or at lest two, because what happens if I'm the one who gets hurt? Assuming I'm wilderness certified "Whatever that means as a standard". And goes to Gerns last paragraph in the above posting. And again John-in-KC makes an excellent point in his last para in the posting of Friday, 7/27/2007: 9:25:58 AM Thanks for your posts!

Okay, thanks for the feed back, like John-in-KC often says, its a gift - that in this case lets me rethink and evaluate my position. 1)It was a knee jerk response to an article - a long knee jerk but still. 2) John, thanks! 3) Beavah, a)not all military style camping is the kind you are thinking about. There is plenty of military camping that takes place with 12 or fewer people, packing in and packing out, never making a fire, packing in and packing out EVERY SINGLE THING(I knew the cat hole soup thing 18 years ago) and where the entire goal is to not ever let anyone know you were there. b)yes, mission focus is primary in the military - but leadership/character(development) training is ongoing also and another focus of effort. How can I say that my focus is on the mission if I haven't trained my subordinates (often two levels down) and know my superiors job one level up? And in that, is included that they have the character to implement the plan. Usually, the character development plan is guided by trying to emulate the 14 traits of a USMC leader and being a good leader can often be defined in adherence to the 11 USMC leadership principles of the Marine Corp. see link http://www.usmc1.us/marine_leadership_trait.html c) true I won't encourage or show a Scout how to FAST rope, SPIE rig or even rappel Aussie style, because they don't need those skills and they are more dangerous than the sport version of those activities that have sport counterparts. Brent, I am in no way stating that I know every thing, read para 2 of the rant and the first section following the Sarcasm warning. And I can't wait to get to go to WB. But I'm being told to put it off (locally) for at least a year if not two. I'm sure that you are putting in the hours ensuring that what you are going to cover in WB will be of real value to your students, and thank you for doing so. CalicoPenn, absolutely you are correct, Common sense is an uncommon virtue(to borrow a phrase). will continue...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

You are all making sense here, and note that I mentioned in the rant that I still would ensure that I had qualified instruction for the HA(climbing, Scuba , etc.) trips. The BSA Safety afloat, Safe Swim Defence, etc., are MANAGEMENT courses, not how to do the activity courses.

LongHaul writes "Gunny look at your numbers again para. 4 referrs to events occuring in 2004, 2005, 2006 where do you get 10 years? (My Reply in parentheses(From her use of the word decade in the paragraph mentioned)) And how do the numbers justify lack of training requirements." (That last statement is just disingenuous. In what way did I advocate for lower standards/ training requirements?)

I've seen SSScouts method work really well also.

Thanks

Okay, risk assessment time. If the above article is authoritative then over the last decade(para.4) and more than a dozen incidents(para.4) 24 persons have been involved in situations requiring rescues(12) or have died(12). Now from the BSA annual reports in 2002 there were in December: >1,000,000 scouts actively scouting; 2003 997,398; 2004 988,995; 2005 943,426; and in 2006 879,789. Now with a minimum of 10 camping nights, I think we can agree that the majority of us can say we get a lot more than that but we'll stick with 10 so that we underestimate. We get a total of 4,809,608 scouts over a five year period and with the previously mentioned 10 nights we get 48,096,080 camping nights in the five year period - now to make it a worst case scenario we will assume that all of the incidents mentioned in the article occurred in the five years (1/2 the time they actually occurred in). So 48,096,080 divided by 24 equals, a ratio of 1 in 2,004,003. So for every 2 million nights one camps out with the BSA; one can expect to be lost and requiring rescue, or die, once. I think Ill take those odds. See also From the Outward Bound 2004 report http://www.outwardbound.org/pdf/annualreport_OBUSA.pdf Outward Bound influenced the lives of more than 70,000 students and teachers - less than 10 % of the 2004 BSA figure for Boy Scouts not counting BSA Leaders. Taking the same 1 in 2 million number they can only have one person requiring a rescue or die every 2.86 years From: Effective Leadership in Adventure Programming By Simon Priest, Michael A. Gass http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=axRaiRhQ2CwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=%22Priest%22+%22Effective+Leadership+In+Adventure+Programming%22+&ots=QuY-3WBcLE&sig=my43AxyNbGo_dCI1XP2nxZPbmVA#PPA92,M1 Risk management in outdoor experiences is quite similar to other industries (e.g. airline and automobile industries). Regardless of the field, professionals design experiences and products based on a variety of factors, one of which is the level of actual risk. In fact, adventure experiences are typically less risky than most commonly accepted human activities. For example, Cooley (2000) found wilderness adventure experiences were about 18 times less likely to result in injury than high school football practices or cheerleading and were half as responsible for deaths resulting from motor vehicle accidents for 15-19 year olds. So lets drive to Football practice instead of going Scouting. Again, I DON"T THINK SO, although I 'm going to be more careful driving the boy to practice tonight.

Okay, I get it, Apparently I'm a backward non-scientist and I will probably be disclosed as a buffoon in the field of logic too. At least in this thread. But where is this fallacy of incredulity coming from? In my limited experience the great fallacies are: Ad Ignorantiam(from Ignorance)(hasn't been proved true, or proved false - then claiming the other) Ad Verecundiam (False Authority)(Subject matter expert in a different field) Ad Hominem (Against the Person)( argument is directed against the person vice the argument) Ad Populum (to the People)(forget the evidence if I can distract the crowd and win them over) Ad Misericordian (a pitying heart)(altruism) Ad Pabulum (to the stick) (appeal to force)(veiled or indirect threat) and Colorations Elenchi(mistaken proof) (proving the wrong point - misapplied, or over generalization) So is the fallacy you are using really a fallacy or were you trying to apply one of the one's above? If so, which one?

And another to claim that anything other than natural light just contributes to the acceleration of Global Warming. So don't replace it anyway.

I agree that there are those of us who probably do not have all of the training that we could. But as a volunteer organization that relies on fairly heavy time commitments by the uniformed front line leaders - SM's and ASM's, 1)what is a reasonable level of wilderness experience to require - 2)and if it requires training outside of BSA then how is it going to be paid for - is it another part of the opportunity to volunteer, 3)and if so does only one adult(per outing) need the training or does every adult who goes have to have the full training continuum? To include any parents who come along to ensure YPT? I, for one, agree that you should never be done qualifying, requalifying or adding to your skills - even if you reach the point where adding to your skills is reading about others mishaps. To date, with-in BSA, I have completed:, YPT, Fast Start: Boy Scouting, Troop Committee Challenge, Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Trek Safely, Climb On Safely, New Leader Essentials, and Scoutmaster Specific. In the same period I obtained American Red Cross certifications in: Standard First Aid; CPR/AED Adult and Child with CPR Infant. And attended one of three scheduled Roundtables - (one canceled, one work conflict) Have I mentioned I have only begun working on training as Scouter since May 1st this year? *** Caution Sarcasm follows*** Can I take the boys for a hike yet? Not necessarily High Adventure - I am only a PADI Advanced Open water diver - with deep dive and night certifications. (>100 dives) I've only spent two years climbing (free, lead and top rope) in Joshua Tree. But no Instructor certifications in either. And no I wouldn't take them without the services of a qualified instructor and the requisite training for the boys. Oh did I mention, 21 years of service to our country where believe it or not they taught us a little bit about getting along in the woods and in saving our fellow service members lives (Basic training)(First Aid Training)(Combat Lifesaver certification) a little bit of leadership instruction was thrown in on the side (Basic again)(NCO school - local) (Formal NCO school) (Formal Staff-NCO Academy) with essentially 19 to 21 years of laboratory work(depending on when you think being a leader started) doing it every single day. Too many deployments to austere third world environments, with and with out outside logistical support, to list. Can I take the boys out yet? Or must I complete BSA Intro to Outdoor Skills first? Oh, and Woodbadge? Oh, and Wilderness First Aid - with Delayed Response? Oh there's more? Well when you finalize the list, let me know and I'll see if I can get all of that to be fully trained up and still stay current and available to go on those hikes. In the meantime someone less qualified will just have to fill-in. Oh and does Outward Bound have a perfect safety record? I seem to remember lots of negative press about that organization when I was in High School, have they come along way, sure. But do they use volunteer leaders? I'm not sure but I doubt it. Does any one know? Or maybe we just need to retreat behind our little suburbanite fences and just let the boys suffer. I DON"T THINK SO.

And one more to argue the energy efficiency of LEDs' over light bulbs. And another to argue that the LED production methodology off sets any savings they have while in use.

There are many methods and practices that work. This is my most often used and easiest to use. 1st - if new boots then ensure that you have removed any protective coatings. Then apply some leather dye. - if old boots, especially if there is dirt in the old layers of polish, then I would try to start fresh by removing the old polish. Clean and working the polish into the pores of the leather is the goal! 2nd - the leather should be as smooth as possible before polish is applied, bumps, cuts, and uneven leather won't look as good with a spit shine. 3rd - just put a nice coat of polish on (if your end goal is a real spit shine look ensure you use new polish)- apply and buff until you see a good buff shine, repeat application and buffing if necessary. 4th - you may find that if you don't need a spit shine that you don't need to go further 5th - I like to use a clean white t-shirt cut length wise into +/- 4 inch(10 cm) strips, I like to use water and sometimes an extremely very, tiny, minute, small amount of an oil that is compatible with the polish I am using. Wrap two layers of cloth around your first two fingers, with some pressure, then continue up the hand and to the wrist to secure the strip of cloth. Take a small, little dab of polish onto the cloth, dip in the water, rub in small 3 cm (inch and a 1/4) overlapping circles with a fair amount of pressure , spreading the polish very very thinly over a fairly small area. Repeat until done. Note: When actually doing the spit shine portion it will take some judgment to see if you are using enough polish or too little, or enough pressure or too much. In my experience you cannot use too much water but if you add any oil you can use too much very very easily and may need to strip all the way back down and start over. The oil I usually don't add unless I'm only setting them up for a one day event and am going to strip them again soon or if I am forced to use old dried out polish. A very light mineral oil is what I have used the most but check it on a piece of old leather with your polish of choice if you decide to use the oil trick. I know some people heat the polish prior to application - this is usually just loosening some of the oil in the polish so that it is available on the surface, it will dry out the remaining polish in the can but can be a good technique if you don't care about using all of the polish in your can. Good luck!

Lisabob, I don't completely disagree with your point of view on this, sometimes the coordination and approval process is more work than the actual project. But coordination and approval are not Leadership processes they are Management processes. Even if it does take some Leadership to convince those whom one is coordinating with to agree on certain points and to give their approval.

Some restaurants will work with you so that if you will do the advertising and provide scouts to buss tables and greet customers, they will donate a percentage of the customers checks between the agreed upon hours of the night of the event. Some will also let you put out a tip jar, others will let you do all of the above but you only get what is in the tip jar. It gets you some local exposure, lets the non-scouting public see your scouts cheerfully working (don't forget the smiles)and you get a fundraising activity where people are only paying what they otherwise would for the product. I forgot, its state fair time, but any event that requires parking on unpainted lots or where the event organizer wants the lots filled from front to back will often let you direct the vehicles to their spaces and keep a portion of the parking fee. Additionally you can sometimes get the use of a nearby lot(sometimes closer than the official lot) donated and you can keep the whole parking fee.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

One of my favorite quotes deals with the TQM methodology changing all of the time... note the date of the quote: "We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we formed up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing: and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization." - Petronius Arbiter, 210 B.C. I like quality management for the end result when it is in place long enough for everyone to understand whats going on - i.e you no longer hear "This is "John" our Lean Six guy" because everyone is actually involved in delivering whatever TQM methodology is being used. Otherwise the above quote is understated in its condemnation.

MaCraven, I seem to be apologizing a lot in these forums, if I offended you in any way I was not trying to and am sorry to have done so. By leadership, remember that the committee members are also registered leaders and I may not have been clear about where I was pointing.

Double post, sorry!(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Facial reconstruction! Look alike contest!!! Ouch! LOL! ROTFL! stop it, stop it, yer killin' me!!!

a_sly_fox, Is that the Sonic Night Orientation Ranging and Interdiction by Noxious stimuli Guardian system? ...and I'm a member too.

Did the ASPL stay and do the SFF(Scouting for Food)? Did the PL's step up and have a leadership opportunity, or was everyone just focused on the SPL's absence? Conflicting calendars? These things happen?