Gunny2862

Kudu, really... I am open to persuasion but you are in danger of placing yourself as just a nut job if you continue to misrepresent Servant Leadership. It's clear you haven't read anything about it and are just using it as a buzzword. Go read a book and then come back and try some reasoned persuasion. I understand a lot about what you are Preaching about the Patrol method, but until I can get the boys to do the minimalist (according to your thinking) leadership activities of a "modern" Scout Troop they have no hope of doing what you are asking. But to just demand the change - it isn't going to happen especially in the metro areas. If you have a problem with Scouting as it exists now, fine, but disparaging other leaders isn't how you get them to change - maybe showing them advantages to GBB's and B-Ps program (as you see it) might work but if all you do is bust our chops do you really think we're going to listen?

Okay that's a likely scenario but unless he had a waiver from National to do so, what is he teaching his Scouts by moving the patch to an improper location? Character question that happens to conflate with a UP issue - I'm not normally associated with the UP, although I am working to get my Troop into better uniforming habits...

GW ? Argumentative or just being weird? If the two coincide then that's all well and good, if you are looking at the discussion that way. But Servant Leadership is as much about the motivation of the Leader as it is anything else. And by introducing this you are dragging Occam's razor into it by having to parse ends with means. This discussion, in my opinion, lends itself towards the means - including the Leaders motivations. Why complicate the issue, especially that way?

I am inclined to agree with you, that there isn't a hard and fast rule on this. Since the camp has designated the shirt and cap combination as the "camp uniform", in lieu of the "normal" uniform, then I think you would be safe in thinking of the Scouts as being in uniform and as such could salute. Someone else will almost always disagree, with just about anything on flag etiquette, but I think you have plenty of room for opinion on this one.

Ev, in relation to the golden rule... I could be wrong but my reading of the application would be that I would rather be led by someone who had my interests at heart rather than someone who was using me to build their empire. And that being the case, that I should lead others with their interests in mind first, rather than running it to benefit me, or to cause me the least discomfort in leadership.

Sorry. I found it here, http://tinyurl.com/6mea9n and just posted their link to the press release link rather than sending you to the third party site, after hearing it on the local shock jock radio station on the way to work.

I may be reading it wrong or you may have left something out, BUT it appears to me that your answer is in your question. Assuming it is okay for you to use a raffle. If none of the Scouts sells 50 tickets individually then you are off the hook for paying for any of their registrations. If, however, they each sell one ticket and you finish selling all of the rest, 500- x, where x equals the number of Scouts, then you will need to draw and send those 3 Scouts to day camp even though they only sold one ticket. It may seem wrong but is a consequence of the rules you have given above. For next year, maybe only those who have sold 50 tickets can earn a chance for the drawing for day camp? And instead of announcing it write it down.

John, It's called "indexing the finger" one places the finger along the frame where it can be quickly slid into position into the trigger guard. An excellent technique for avoiding that accidental discharge if one were to stumble and fall(or many other possible causes) with the firearm. Manyhats, I, in accordance with my Military AND BSA training teach that the First safety is the active brain of the shooter- especially having a full sense of situational awareness(who is where, what is behind the target,where is my muzzle, is it loaded and/or charged, is the safety on or off etc.), the Second safety is proper firearms handling - to include indexing and carry positions, and the Third safety is the mechanical safety on the firearm. Anyone who is teaching NOT to use the mechanical safety to Scouts is doing what I believe(and was taught from my BSA training source) to be improper instruction, however I also don't believe in RELYING on the mechanical safety, and prefer to think of teaching safety as a layered concept.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Apparently the same folks who are protesting at military funerals are choosing to express their free speech rights at the funerals of the Scouts who died at the Little Sioux Scout camp during it's recent storm. http://tinyurl.com/3vhfyh

hotfooteagle, I can see where it might have had value for a previously uninformed non-shooting parent who was stepping up but other than putting the book and a signed certificate in my hand, It was an extremely low value use of my gas and time to go to the course. The Instructor however was great, an NRA Rangemaster/ Rifle and Pistol Instructor and competitive shooter and hunter he sized us up and gave us all his minimums and gave more individualized time to the uninitiated folks.

Thanks for that clarification scotteng! I thought maybe that was aimed at prior military also. I haven't yet had the experience of someone walking out on my range unbidden nor of anyone interfering with my range personnel. But that would cause thre shut down of the range until either of those were dealt with. By the way the Cub Scout leaders and parents were excellent last week on the range, I'm glad they do what they do for the Scouts.

GW, Absouletly however contextual usage doesn't keep the item from "being" a weapon. Ask the friendly officer who stops you to tell you how impressed he is with your driving when he sees your locked case on the seat on the way to your target match. Just another guy with an opinion on the issue.

fgoodwin, I certainly hope you aren't reading any criticism of anyone else' s range operating procedures into my posts. If you are, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I am not intending any offense on that or any other point.. I was merely iterating my thoughts: A) That regardless of any politically correct renaming, Range Officials are instructing and supervising the safe and proper use of "Weapons", even if those weapons are "just punching paper" and B) that it might seem weird to some of us who might already be overqualified to run a range that we would be required to go to a NRA course to become a Firearms Instructor to run a Pellet Rifle course for Boy Scouts. Again, sorry for any confusion. Edit, I forgot to add that I DID step up and run our Councils Cub Scout Day Camp range last week. Had a great time and had a lot of Cub Scouts perform well in all applicable aspects of BB gun handling. We ( my Scout son and I) also noted that we only had to pump the rifles for about 14 of about 175 of the Scouts due to their inability to safely do so.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

scotteng, not to revive an old discussion but what is more Mom friendly than pushing safety? The W word may be anathema in your view but not calling one a W doesn't make it not one and can easily lower a youths respect for the proper safe handling of them. Otherwise why is the what do you do if you find a gun part of the syllabus for the Scouts earning their belt loops or pins? The air guns power and projectile do make them dangerous at close range and although they don't have a military purpose they are still W's.

I don' t have any problem with any of the viewpoints expressed above and personally agree with most of them whether it's what our Troop does or not, BUT we have wandered far away from kahits original question. Anyone have any ideas for a shakedown ceremony?

Actually Joni, that's why we reimburse. To use fundraising money rather than place an additional burden on some of our parents who'll drive/camp but can't afford to donate the gas.

AhoyDave, If I misjudged the intent of your statements, I apologize. However, it appears that you are pointing out systemic and pervasive callous behaviour from Scouters towards Special needs Scouts and seemed to be using a wide brush to do so. In my, albeit limited, experience with Scouting I have consistently seen accomodation made as soon as the need was known. In my, limited expeience, the biggest issue is people who know about a condition with a Scout who don't share the info until after there is an incident. i.e. at last weeks Cub Scout day camp I was the Rangemaster for the BB range. A child with Aspergers was brought into the range with no warning to me. After a safety lecture and the pin/loop info this child wound up in an untenable position re: his BB Gun and another childs head. I still would have acted quickly but may not have been as loud or sharp. As it was I got called on the carpet by his walking leaders for upsetting him. Only one incident but after I knew I was able to work with him and get some BB's downrange- which was what the Scout was worried about. The other 10 or so Special needs Scouts were identifiedto me in advance by their leaders and got a little more help or supervision as needed. They all seemed pleased with their participation.

eagle90, I don't know about policy, but one of our council pro's was just onTV discussing the "safe" building at camp. YEAH, RIGHT. I'll be hunkering somewhere in a draw, thanks. firekat, Good call! Water does go to low ground. A ditch, draw or ravine is one thing a culvert or other enclosed structure where you can't get out as water rises or lay close to the edge is another.

Well, if Granny is doing the Troop a favor and driving the Suburban and little Sis has to come along for whatever reason then that would put you over the number of seatbelts in the Suburban. But I still don't see the case for reimbursing Granny at the same rate as the more efficient vehicle, especially if she is also hauling the trailer.

Remember to do a report for yourself as you go of things that went wrong, how you can avoid them next time, ideas for next time you do this theme that come to you during the event(they will). And then redo it at the end of your project, you'll be amazed how much it helps next time.

I happened to have a great experience and was highly impressed with the job the other volunteers did running the other areas at our Cub Scout Day Camp last week. We had a possible weather event requiring shut down and evacuation to a nearby building(which they had previously made severe weather plans with) and a failed attempt to forcibly remove a child by a non-custodial parent and they handled both situations better than I have seen at some professional day care providers. No toddlers were seen by me - I was at the far end of the site, but one sister did come along for the ride but didn't participate in the program areas. I was drafted (kindly asked) to run the BB Range on the Thursday prior to the Saturday on which the Rangemaster Training was propitiously offered(in another city >50 miles away) on the weekend prior to Day Camp starting on Wednesday for three days. Set up on day one (to my standards)(including verifying that one could hit where one aimed and doing sight adjustments) took every single second prior to the camp start time. So some volunteers may not have had a lot of prep time, this one would go back to the Camp Director. I don't KNOW what the costs for the campers involved were, but they did pay me and 13 yr old Scout son(acting as a second pair of eyes to keep other groups from coming on the range while I focused on the Shooters) with a Staff T-shirt a piece and with lunches on all three days. I am fairly certain that we delivered good value for our compensation. But I hope the parent's didn't focus on WHAT the Scouts brought home, it was a leather stamp totem with dyed feathers attached signifying that they had hit each program area and I remember a pine birdhouse and a target from our area(that may or may not have had a hit on it which was largely determined by whether or not they paid attention to the "class" portion, but rather whether the Scouts learned anything at their camps program areas.

As a BSA Cub Scout Shooting Sports Rangemaster on the BB side, you can also earn those loops/pins without firing a shot. But it does make for good leverage to get them to listen to the presentation and safety brief, "If it looks like you aren't paying attention... I Don't even have to let you shoot." Within our Council I can setup a range at any time or place of my choosing in which I can safely operate said range. What I think is ridiculous (in the humorous kind of way but, yes, still slightly annoying) is that after 20+ years of service during which I served as the Safety Officer for firing military weapons from Pistols' to M16's to Shotguns to Machine Guns and Automatic Grenade Launchers on military ranges for up to 120 shooters at a time, having served as a Range Coach, and acting w/o certification as a Primary Marksmanship Instructor(but under orders and with supervision) that I had to go get certified to run a BB gun range for Cub Scouts and have to go get NRA Instructor certified if I want to run a Pellet gun range for Boy Scouts. I would still think it was crazy but would find it easier to go along with if they said I had to go for .22 caliber or Black powder but for pellets? That said, there isn't any incentive to get trained for any thing in BSA except to do an informed job of delivering the program to the boy's. Which is why I go for all of the training I can.

From my watching and reading various news sources it appears that the ravine, draws, ditches were the best places to be. From what I caught it seems that all of the deaths and the majority of the injuries were those who sought shelter in the wood frame buildings, including the Camp Ranger whose house has apparently been destroyed. Well, Fox just clarified with a picture, the Rangers house was scrubbed of structure leaving a pile of furniture and personal belongings. They definitely need to look into the awards picture for these Scouts - it would seem that a number of meritorious events took place.

FScouter, in the situation you posit I would ask why you were taking two vehicles. We always load up the Suburban to capacity it it goes, and any other accompanying car/trucks before adding more vehicles to the trip.

Okay, since we pretty much allow anything at summer camp that isn't prohibited by the camp or GSS, they can bring anything that fits in their footlocker and one bag, preferably a Backpack. Of course it's all at their own risk. We aren't going to replace their Ipod or Laptop or cell phone if they choose to bring them. Of course we prefer that they not bring the electronics at all, but we don't prohibit it. I don't know of an appropriate ceremony for this other than making a list of required items and having them "bag" each of them by the numbers,and then loading in their personal choice items, but for most Scouts I don't think that would come off as a positive event.