Gunny2862

You sound right to me, in the majority anyway. You may lose the battle but it is my feeling that you need to hold the line. You may not want to take the line of "THIS IS WHAT THE BSA SAYS" but rather one along the lines of "This is what is best for the boys, this is how we show them that we follow the rules too. This is how we prepare them for life later in Scouts or as adults. Oh, and here is the reference about the rules." This can strengthen the group if they are in for the right reasons and/or reveal those who are in it just for the resume. Find your like minded Scouters and work out a plan and; as BobWhite might say "This is why we use the program and don't vote on how Scouting does things." If there is enough of you on each side then you might divide along those lines. But don't let the other parents put your child outside the program by doing things that are prohibited. Have a great day, good luck! Tell us how it goes...

Eagledad has it right again. Transparency so everyone knows what is going on helps. And it's great that you are looking ahead and looking out for the Scouts. Would your Troop policies (or can you create new ones for this situation) possibly allow Webelos II prospects to work your fund raisers and allow them to use 100% of their account if they join your Troop, take 50% of their accounts with them if they do join another Troop(with proof of joining and the money going to the new Troops treasurer of course) and a receipt for donation at 100% of their account to those who choose not to cross over at all?

First getting in a good overall strength workout is a great plan - it will help with overall fitness, don't forget the aerobics. Specificity is the part of the exercise plan that doing a lot of walking/hiking is geared toward - there isn't a better exercise to do than the one you are training for than doing that exercise. Everyone else has given good info - listen to them. Now as a retired Marine with interesting sounds issuing forth from both knees and a replaced ACL with autograft. If you are already having knee issues (earplugs please) GET THE DOCTOR RECCOMENDED KNEE SUPPORTS! (you may now remove earplugs ) You may even want to see your local sports medicine rehabilitation office and get a recommendation on the best brace for your situation and/or get specific exercise recommendations from them to condition the supporting muscles, ligaments and tendons. Sometimes a properly done rehab program can eliminate the symptoms by putting the strain on the correct loading paths for the knee structure. And save you a lot of pain later. I also highly endorse hiking poles, or even just a stick - they make a world of difference for me especially when totin' the pack. BSA scout store has a decent set for $20. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CAMPING&c3=CAMPEQUIP&c4=&lv=3&item=24028 I've been using them and they haven't failed me yet, other famous maker sets go for a lot more but these have been excellent so far.

True, so true... I have found elements of this in almost any organization I have been a part of, other leaders who judge your involvement by the amount of time they put in or by their results - even if they are working with a widely divergent set of circumstances or resources. I find that I have to take care of myself, guard my time, do things (i.e. break my own campsite) first so that I can be attentive to the other things I need to pay attention to - when I know my own house is in order I am a much better leader than when I'm trying to undo my own mess at the same time someone else needs my attention.

Not to your situation but to your question - I think a quality leader can become qualified, a qualified leader may simply have the certifications and not ever BE a leader but a quality leader will lead and will go get the training he needs. As to the situation, if the pack is still running, and you don't want the job; then don't go after it. Do a good job where you are and perhaps offer to assist the CM. If you are planning on staying with the Pack when your son crosses over then you may want to investigate getting the training so you can move up into the CM position later. Experience enters into the equation but don't let that stop you if you are committed to the program, the boys, and to doing a good job. My two cents....

Ditto Eagledad, Personal emphasis keys on his phrase, "If you cant replace you, it might be easier to find and train the SM." and your phrase "The current SM and myself have worked to change the troop in the past year from adult led to youth led, which was one of my main concerns when I accepted the CC position." If you can't find a CC to replace yourself who can provide at least 80% of the support you've been giving your SM - you will probably do the other 20% anyway, even if you try not to - then you may want to keep that hat and continue the search for a new SM who has the vision the Scouts and you have for the Troop. No one will have as much influence on continuing the Scouts move towards boy-led as the new SM. At least no one but the Scouts themselves. By taking this position as SM then you are in the best place to solidify their cultural shift and create customs and traditions that will keep them from being easily shifted back to adult-led. If this is important to you and you can find a trainable CC who will work with you this is a factor you may want to consider. Third point. Is the Troop in question more important to you than the three Troops you are UC'ing. Are you actually in a position to do more and have a bigger impact where you are? Finally, now that we have dealt with head issues, what does your heart say about where you should be? Think about Eagledad's posts and the questions above... you'll find it all shakes out.

Thanks for the reference on the old point system infoscouter! I now know that while I've been teaching fundamentals, I've not been given enough range time with any group or the correct targets to get the shooting points for anyone. Will work on correcting these issues.

I'm still new to Scouting as a whole and have even less knowledge of the CS side( I'm a SM on the BS side) but I'm learning that BSA publishes it's material so it can change portions all related to one part of an activity(like points) without doing revisions to the whole thing. First, my rangemaster course didn't cover it either. Second, I can't find it in the Webelos Handbook either. I think the answer may be in the "Cub Scout Academics and Sports Program Guide". Had you already checked there? If it's not there you can rest assured that it's in a reference the Council expects the Pack Leader to have availible. Have a great Scouting day!

Completely True. And thus the question. Although, a Scout who swears( or agrees to live in accordance with) the oath can also leave at any time. Something the enlisted person in the military doesn't have availible.

TheScout, Sure you did, if you enlisted, not became an officer,(they have a different oath one can read at the same link below) in the Armed Services of the United States of America. You pledged or affirmed to follow the orders of the President of the United States . You can read it here: http://www.military.com/Recruiting/Content/0,13898,rec_step08_swearing_in,,00.html So if you had enlisted were you saying you would follow orders given by the man or by the office? The common understanding is the office. I think I chose to swear the thing about 7 times.

As with all packs, understanding it's characteristics are a key point of utilizing them well. The ALICE does have it's quirks, but for Max loads, durability, and having space between pack and body, for cooling or additional storage, it actually is a fairly decent system - provided you know how to wear it - which unfortunately is more a breaking in(or strengthening) process on your body than a fitting of the pack. One quirk is that it does not transfer loads to the lower body well and relies heavily on a strong core and back. I DO NOT recommend it for everyone, but merely noted that I still use mine on occasion. What belayer_StLouis states about understanding capacities is true and an often missed point of pack comparisions, you must subtract your sleeping bags(and anything else you store inside an internal that will be stored outside of an external) c.i. from the c.i. of an internal when comparing them to externals.

For an external Frame pack I concur with the Kelty Super Tioga as a good choice for an adult pack, the lower range of adjustment supposedly goes down to a fit for a 5'10" height. So it's not appropriate for younger or shorter Scouts. I still have and enjoy my Medium ALICE pack with external military surplus frame on occasion and am currently alternating depending on what we're doing by toting a Jansport Internal frame.

From the third link in the first post "He said: "Someone should explain to Matthew McVeigh that religion has nothing to do with the pledge of allegiance to the Queen. "Catholic Scouts, like all other British Scouts, take this pledge because she is head of state." I think this point is somewhat interesting. The BSA oath from http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-503a.aspx is: On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. We in the States do not pledge to the head of State but to our Country, the Mother in Britain wants the same, also from the same article, "Tracy Anne wants the promise amended to: "I promise to do my duty to God and my country". How many Scouters would have a problem pledging to any of, say, the last 3 Presidents? Or would you see it as pledging to the Office rather than the man as people in our Armed Forces do? And would this flip-flop with Scouters rotating in and out of Scouting as President's and/or political parties change? IF, we had to pledge to the President then I would see it as loyalty to the office and would stay as a consistent member.

I'd have to see the write up also. But it doesn't appear to meet the standards. The donations are fundraising, the yard work and mowing are maintenance, the shipping regulations while complicated don't involve leadership. Cleaning and re-cementing steps might fit if he were leading a crew of people to do so but it seems awfully short on hours and other involved people to be led. And are the only "markable" portion. It was probably worthwhile and a good example of a Scout doing something "outside of Scouting" but I don't really see how it could be counted towards his Eagle rank other than as a display of Scout Spirit in conjunction with his trip.

Thanks for the update! It's good to read the end story of a thread especially when it has a positive outcome for the poster. YiS

Thanks for the resource OGE! Well, maybe I do need to do more reading Bob, but if the no use of Power Tools is they way the Council teaches it(and they do), and that every Local Scout Leader I talk to reinforces it, then I don't really get a correction until I expose my ignorance here. Which while it's part of the reason I come doesn't mean I appreciate the smackdown every time you call me on something. So back to the discussion at hand... "BW, You said,"You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly?" and in answer I re-present what I wrote that prompted our question - especially the last sentence of it.. And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is(italics added) representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally(italics added) doing so on their behalf."

FYI nessmuk, if I'm cooking it's either for me and the other adult or because we have more adults along. Scouts cook for Scouts. By patrols if possible. We can't get to public campable land in 7 miles. Takes about 25 miles to get to the first spot. Yeah, I wish we lived in the Fred MacMurray movie too, "Come Along Boys", but a trailer or truck or backpack camping are our only options and any all of them require transportation for a weekend outing unless you REALLY want Parlor Scouts and we go out in someones CITY backyard. You're taking what you've seen from one trailer troop and applying it to everyone. Some of us are working what we've got. Our Quartermaster(a Scout, not the Adult position - guess who is wearing that hat also - see discussion below) is responsible for the items in the trailer - issuing, receiving, cleanliness of the trailer and it's inventory you can't tell me that's not good training in warehousing processes, rotating stock, dealing with bad customers or good ones put in bad situations. And yes, we still set up when we arrive with Scouts doing all of the things you describe "The truck drives and parks, gear is unloaded and hauled to the camp site by Scouts + Instills- teamwork - strength training - leadership - organization - communication .. Rain and night - creates more good challenges." Which with our necessary travels we almost always encounter the night on one end or the other. As to the crack about guarding the trailer, the tongue has a shoe lock and the Scouts have keys - no guarding necessary, at least not any more than Uncle "whats his name" does with his truck. I'm just not going to argue B-P or Green Bar Bill with you. I think their programs were great but they also didn't work with the strictures we do. I'd love to camp in a city park just like B-P, but we'd have to set up security and have a roving patrol IF it were even possible that the city would let us do it - which they won't. In that scenario, the Scouts could get by without ANY carriage - just like B-P carrying everything they needed on their backs, but it just ain't going to happen. So why detract from the situation at hand and argue with(and put down) Scouters who are doing the best they can with what they do have? As far as the Camping and Transportation chairs, you're talking to him... I'm working my CC for a Full Committee but people have to be willing to step up... Wish I only wore the one hat... One bite at at time, one bite at a time...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)Edit to include nessmuks quote and the Uncle "what's his name comment)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

What John said, Ditto. BW, You said,"You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly?" and in answer I re-present what I wrote that prompted our question - especially the last sentence of it.. And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is(italics added) representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally(italics added) doing so on their behalf. Excuse me BobWhite, but does that mean he gets to use power tools too? Since he's exempted from YPT I guess that means he doesn't have to follow the GSS as he's doing it either? Or set those GSS boundaries for any Scouts who do help him with their labor. I may be wrong but I think our DAC and SE would have an issue with either of those interpretations - especially if the Scout wants it to count for his advancement or puts other "off the clock" Scouts at risk while working his project. I know as a parent I'd have an issue with the freedom from the rules approach you "in this instance" are advocating. And if the helping Scouts are truly off-the-clock why do they get to use those hours of service for THEIR advancement. If it's outside of Scouting the way YOU are describing it it would seem apparent that they wouldn't be able to drag those service hours back into Scouting either. Point of order, ALL of my comments on this thread are centered on a Scout who is trying to utilize the results of his project for his advancement to Eagle. To flip back and forth as you SEEM to be doing is disingenuous and below the level of the quality postings you usually provide(even if I disagree they are still usually excellent posts).

Rick, phonetically, Chon-man-e Mal-sum-im-ni-da. (You're Welcome) Have a Great day.

Horizon, yes, inflection doesn't come off clearly on the net, so to be clear read me as speaking in a conciliatory tone on this... MY misunderstanding may primarily stem from your use of the phrase, "If a Scout is regularly NOT prepared, we will discuss that at the SMC and I am sure that the BOR will discuss it as well." This phrase(in context) is in relation to the being prepared in question being, not having his bag at Troop meetings which tells me that you regard NOT having the bag as not being prepared and as such, it SEEMS to me that you are adding to the requirements. Others may have read it the same way. I still agree that a "go-bag" of this type is a great idea, even the current Scout Handbook has a picture of a bookbag like you describe to carry the ten essentials on the page discussing them. And I think encouraging Scouts to have them regularly is good too. But by discussing the presence or absence of the bag at SMC's and BOR's it kind of places it as a requirement item, even if it's informally. I don't think anyone is on your back about the kit or being prepared or encouraging the Scout's to Be Prepared but some of us are touchy about the adding requirements bit and this tripped our triggers, certainly mine. I certainly meant no offense and apologize for any offense you feel from me. YiS

True simpler IS usually better. And as one who remembers fine points of successfully sleeping in the Canvas shelter half - pairing up with a buddy if you had an even number of folks out, and pitching it as a lean-to if you were the odd man out(hey, I'm still that sometimes) and trenching it in with (oh) memories. They weren't all they were cracked up to be. Sure they worked, but I'll pass for now. Not that I'm averse to lean-to's, shelter half's, tarp tents or just about anything else but IF I'm going to carry it, AND it's not an object lesson for the Scout's I'm just not going backwards(and heavier) for backwards sake. I can understand why you might do it, and for nostalgias sake might sleep in one but just don't see it on a regular basis, for me. Well, I'll be in a Canvas tent all week next week but I won't have carried it anywhere either. As to primitive weapons, why not a sling style slingshot, or a spear, or for a real challenge track and stalk that deer with a flint knife. Personally I'll stick to good old modern weaponry. The old stuff is fun to play with but if I'm going hunting I'm trying to kill it not mess it up with outdated technology and the flaws that called for the advancement to modern arms. A non-fatal wound due to the inherent flaws of an old technology is just as painful to the animal as a sloppy shot from a poor marksman using todays gear. After all, the hunt is in the stalk if the stalk has been well performed, the kill is anticlimactic. But all opinions are welcomed. (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Welcome, we were just down in Steele Creek on the Buffalo last month. You guys have some great areas to work with!

ScoutingAgain, True. My closer to home, Committee, likes to see the Scouts in uniform (Field or Activity) when out doing these projects also. The District and Council as groups haven't said anything about it that I know of but I know certain District Advancement members who like it that way also. And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally doing so on their behalf.

And a supplementary supply drop for the cook kit or a LAPES for a trailer and prime mover.... But we'd really have to be careful of the pinning ceremonies, YPT, you know. But THAT would be an awesome version of a Scout Trailer.

Also, you can adapt this basic verse for marching it can go on and on as you make a verse for each Scout Rank and Scout POR and for each Scouter position: (Disclaimer - fairly clean military version as the source document) Old King Cole was a merry old soul and a merry ol' soul was he, He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl and he called for his privates three, uh huh. Beer! Beer! Beer! cried the private. Brave men are we There's none so fair as they can compare to the airborne infantry, uh huh. for instance: Old King Cole was a merry old soul and a merry ol' soul was he, He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl and he called for his Tenderfoot Scouts, Knots! Knots! Knots! cried the Tenderfoot. How to tie them? There's none so fair as to compare to the New Scout Patrol. All you need to make up for each succeeding verse is the section from "and he called for his Tenderfoot Scouts, Knots! Knots! Knots! cried the Tenderfoot. How to tie them? There's none so fair as to compare to the New Scout Patrol." just change the rank, skill, and Patrol... have fun. I'd give you more but often times it's more fun to make up your own... Make sure you get at least one verse that diggs on the Scout Leaders - but be nice to the MOMs! (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)