Gunny2862

While there is plenty of interest here, This is what I find second to the center of this article, "The suit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Seattle, pits the National Center for Lesbian Rights, a San Francisco group backing the men, against the North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance, which prides itself on barring discrimination based on sexual orientation." italics added.

Don't have access to the WSJ but found the brief: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/files/08-1371.pdf

We have begun doing our own tests for our own purposes - including an opportunity for in-pool related advancement. But the Camp we tend to go to has a 100% test policy - every camper to include BSAL © campers either test at site or no water activities for you. I have to say that it does eat a portion of check-in day but I do like that the camp is taking the boys safety seriously by ensuring that they can swim ( at least a little).

While this is under the link posted above, it may also more directly apply to a possibly unstated portion of your question, what is required for each position/ http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/UmbrellaTrainingJan2009.pdf Renew periods vary with the Training, some are one and done, others are yearly, most are every three years - and may change as the courses are re-developed.

We work with a pack that we have no formal association with. We do however have two of the CM's sons, are looking for the third and except for the first six months of my tenure as SM have had DC's in place. If they have a need for a DC in another Den that we can't provide then why shouldn't they be able to BE (insert appropriate Scout law word here) and help out. Ultimately, why we do hope to get some Scouts from them every year - they aren't our Scouts and should go to the Troop that best fits what the Scouts want. Alternately we have also placed DC's in Packs that were looking for DC's and couldn't get them from their traditionally friendly Troop. It was amazing how fast they found volunteers and put DC's back in place. It's not about "stealing" any kids it's about doing good turns for folks that need them - and if we re-established a relationship between a Pack and a Troop, then YEA!

Good discussion. But, I see probation as the Criminal side of it but as it works around here(without the paid part of the supervision). IF an event warranted some kind of response either including or just short of suspension, then probation or being "on notice" that one's leeway has just evaporated and the next incident will result in a stronger response, may be just the ticket. I.E. the Scout who is a first year, has impulse control problems, and didn't actually strike anyone but only by the grace of God and a(not normally intimidating) Eagle who halted the interaction. What to do? Suspend him when he didn't complete an action? Kick him out as a danger to others? Or notify him and his parents that no matter what else he gets away with at home or elsewhere that as a Scout there is a higher level of self-control required and that on the next occurrence he WILL, be suspended or removed from the Troop depending on the offense. That maybe for the first couple of meetings/outings a Parent will be required and then we'll graduate down from that but he won't have regained the leeway yet? That a couple of meetings/outings later with demonstrable improvement he will be back on solid ground. I wouldn't suspend or recommend suspension of credit for activities or advancement for more than a month based on a Probation, I would on a probably the full term of a Suspension. Prison is about Punishment and Correction, Probation is supposed to be about Correction and Re-integration.

OGE, I also spend a significant amount of time on a University campus, the flip-flop sandal thing is not the occasional student but on certain days rises to nearly 30% on at least one campus. That said, I've never seen anyone but students, whom I happen to know are Muslim, wash their feet in a sink. Take walk through the fountains, sure, rub their feet after getting out, perhaps, but I'v e not ever seen anyone but a known Muslim use a sink to wash their feet.

Remember that while there really isn't a substitute for the face to face interaction between the DL and the DC in the training process and for clarifying expectations, DC training IS available online - just because the DL doesn't provide it isn't a reason for the DC not to get trained. Front page of the training section posted below, need your member number to create an account if you want the system to maintain your records. I would also print out a copy each time you complete training. https://myscouting.scouting.org/_layouts/MyScouting/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2f_layouts%2fAuthenticate.aspx%3fSource%3d%252f&Source=%2f

From the discussion it seems that most have a good handle on this. In Scouting, even more so than in civil life - I expect some degree of respect from youth because I'm an Adult. In Scouting, even more so than in civil life - I expect some degree of respect from youth because I'm a Volunteer. In Scouting, even more so than in civil life - I expect some degree of respect from youth because I'm a Scoutmaster. In Civil life, in Scouting, and from my previous Military service - I expect the respect I have EARNED, not necessarily just from being an adult, volunteer or scoutmaster. On the other hand if I am of uneven temper, act unjustly, meddle in affairs I should leave alone, generally do things I shouldn't do and act in ways I shouldn't act - than all of that whittles away from what respect I should expect. Now even though I believe in some areas I just should be accorded some and may have even earned some modicum of respect, the reality is that one cannot demand respect - it is either given or not - one may be able to force the show of respect, but the act of forcing the show itself justifies the actions of those who fail to respect the individual in question. Now in some situations it is appropriate to respect an office rather than the person, but this again tends to be an artifice devoted to individuals who have not shown themselves worthy of respect in one way or another. Let me shift the argument just a little though at this point, so one should allow a Scout to turn away from the flag, put his hands at his side and intentionally not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance? At the very least I think it would be time for a SM conference to determine exactly what the youth is thinking. A little discussion about the responsibilities of a citizen and a refresher on the U.S. Flag code might be in order. I think that at the point where a Scoutmaster asks the question posed by Scoutfish, it may, perhaps, be time to have a heart to heart with your COR about finding your replacement.

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of perpetual is. Until we change our minds? Until you do something we get pressure from someone else who doesn't like it? Why would anyone build a building and give it to the city under a perpetual lease agreement unless the idea was that they would perpetually be entitled to inhabit/use it?

The correct answer is one that you will learn how to use. I've had really good luck with the Garmin eTrex line. It's getting (is)a little dated from a marketing perspective, but it does everything you'll need it to from an operations perspective. It's standards based and the standards haven't moved along - so it works with lots of programs and is still fully functional with whats available for Civilian GPS signal reception. I use my Garmin with the Garmin MapSource databases and it does a great job for what I need. One thing you might want to do is investigate GPS software packages and see what makers devices work with that package and then buy the device based on that if you find software you love. Conversely, looking at the device that does what you need and how easy it is to work it and then determine what/if any additional software is necessary/helpful in accomplishing your goals. (edit below) And while I haven't looked at that MB recently, my iPhone 3G with "Geocaching - A Groundspeak Project v3.1" software package is a great little Geocaching combo that allows for usage of what "I think I remember" is the recommended Geocaching website of the MB book - http://www.geocaching.com/ . It allows searching not only for caches but also benchmarks and following trackables. If you use the phone and don't have the 3GS - take a compass, the downloadable compass programs for the 3G are not able to get you that last bearing you may want without a whole lot of extra walking as they only read while the device is moving - preferably in a straight line.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I haven't had to deal with removing a Scout yet and hope I never do. But I have had to have serious discussions with a Scout and his parents about appropriate and inappropriate ways to discuss things with others. The incident that caused the discussion with the Parents if it ever happens again will be plenty of reason to discontinue his membership - will I enjoy letting this youth continue life without Scouting if that ever becomes the case - NO. But the safety and welfare of ALL of the Scouts is as important as the development of ANY of the youth. If I am not mistaken the program answer we generally work under is that a boy can be removed when issues of harm to himself or others arise. What that harm arises to, that's the point where the rubber meets the road and where the hard questions come in, but sans specific - there's not much more to add.

Dagnabit Jim, even with all of Scottys engineering prowess there isn't enough thrust to move this thread back where it came from!

At the risk of continuing a Tangent, If my COR shows up and asks me to step down, "Thank you very much, hope you've found some one to fill the position and are going to continue to carry the program." and "May I continue to serve in any other way?" If the CC comes and says the same thing, "Why?" and "Um, have you talked to (redacted name - the COR)?" I give status updates(reports) to my CC all the time, we are not however in a Senior/ Subordinate relationship. I give a lot of weight to his suggestions, in this case he has been a SM before although there were several SM's between he and I. On the other hand, I do feel free to move in a different direction than he suggests at times - I'm running the program, he's running the logistics. He's a great guy and if he wanted me out and even to be the SM again he could, but even though he and the COR are VERY tight and have had a much longer term relationship - he'd have to CONVINCE the COR why it would be a good idea to make that swap. Scoutmasters do not work for the Committee Chair - they work WITH each other. Scoutmasters AND Committee Chairs BOTH work for the boys under the auspices of the Chartered Organizational Representative on behalf of the Institutional Head thanks to the support of the Chartered Partner of the Boy Scouts of America.

Sorry for the contrairian opinion but, Yes, a good Den Chief can make up for a poor Den Leader IF the DC IS a good one and the DL has enough sense to get out of the way when the magic is happening. If the DL is an over-controller (in addition to possibly being a weak leader) it simply can't work. You do need to get a DC who wants to be there and isn't "just" filling a POR. It's your responsibility to train him, or see that he gets trained for the DC position. The DL needs to hopefully employ him for his intended purpose. I've got two out to a pack right now who could BE the DL's and are WAYYY past needing credit for their work - not your Average DC's but they are really really good one's.

John, you are absolutely correct about the value of a web-board towards resolving this, YET - you have given valuable insight the OP may not have had on how she could handle it locally - thus proving the value of the web-board.

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CAMPING&c3=CBAGS&c4=&lv=3&item=24187 Here's the link to what I was looking at: it doesn't seem to be a Ski attachment set-up but you can't really tell from this or any other photos I can find. I'm reading it as that bottom compartment has been subdivided into two sections but none of that is visible because it's on the inside of the larger bottom compartment...

By the above definition: Trekkie, thanks

Thanks, I completely understand given BSA's policy of removal on accusation why they would want to keep a file of folks they've removed, but an uncleared accusation isn't necessarily reason to publicly release someones name... unlike a conviction. As a conviction in most states makes one a public figure anyway, what with publicly search-able registries and all.

Having looked the pack over on-line there isn't any description of that feature nor can I find a picture of the inside of the area under discussion. I'm purely supposing here but it may be to try to place some crew gear in an easy access and low position for weight distribution. Also it could be that the sleeping bag goes in one of the two compartments and your tent/tarp in the other. Or, possibly the designers had no clue and were just putting in a "new" and "different" feature that they had no idea what it would be good for, and so, didn't give any instructions what it was for....except extra weight. (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

NE-IV-88-Beaver, Question, Committed or been accused of?

Well, alcohol stoves are finished in Scouting, here's the link info: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf Here's some of the applicable text: Prohibited Chemical-Fueled EquipmentEquipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturers stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning can stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed. Since most of the stuff at mimibulldesign is made to some degree with machining equipment, does it fall in or out of the "handcrafted" designation?

Merlyn, the poor guy in the Huffington post article can't find anyone willing to sponsor a team - as of the date of the article. Not your best zinger. Yeah, I think I agree, with John, I'm not betting against Beavah in a court room.

I don't like seeing them with the phone so much that they might as well be on their couch texting - but they can and do bring them. They are entirely on their own about keeping them from damage, loss, lack of power, recharging facilities or theft - the Troop assumes NO responsibility for (really) anything they bring. So far they've been really good about policing their own use of them.

How much respect is due? Enough so that when I DO get involved, the discussion ends until their parent or the SPL or their PL contacts me. Should what was described in the Parent thread have happened? Not in my opinion. But that is based on only one side of the story... Based on what we've been told: Should the adults have had cooler heads, Yes. Did a teachable moment get passed and turned into controversy, Yes and Yes. Should any of the adults have been making the statements they did after the SM said not to, NO. Should the CC be looking for a new SM if he's going to listen to this Committee Member/Council volunteer instead of his SM - he better if it's me as SM...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)