fred8033

Yeah. There is a line. I'll miss things like upside-down bobcat ceremony, but I agree it's more a safety issue. BUT then again, I could see one in 10 or one in 30 scouts reacting badly. I'd fear more for the 45+ year old, out of shape dad than the kid.

Teasing wasn't being compare to hazing. MattR introduced teasing as a related question. Personally, I can see teasing as a form of hazing if done as part of someone being newly introduced into a group. If not, it can just be yet another form of bad behavior. Bad behavior is attractive because sometimes it can be fun to be naughty. But, it's still bad behavior. IMHO, a good rule of thumb ... are you comfortable asking the parent to do the same? ... at the next troop committee meeting ... Mrs Anderson, before the troop camp out, can you get the quartermaster to refill the trailer bli

@MattR ... Your words are thoughtful and well written. My two comments. #1 Teasing ... Even teasing is a gray issue. Grey for those on the other side of the pond. ... Teasing can be fun, but can easily and very quickly turn into bad behavior too. Personally for me, this is my weakness. I have been consciously trying to minimize my teasing of others. Instead, I'm trying to focus on authentic, open discussion. #2 "if not done right" ... It's not about correctly or not correctly using such a scenario (smoke shifter, bacon stretcher, snipe hunts, etc). It's in the eyes of

This is an old argument. My apologies for raising it again, but I see the discussion and it's hard to not remind everyone that others have different opinions. Coddling? No. That's pretending to have an excuse for boorish bad behavior. I'm saying it's setting a bad example. We should not be teaching that it's okay to treat others badly; aka being a jerk. ... This specific situation is called hazing and against the rules.

One person's fun is another's misery. ... my apologies if I'm being blunt ... We don't need to be jerks to develop leadership.

Better give up everything from every institution you ever valued and every person you ever respected. Not much from the past withstands the scrutiny of the present. Ya know doctors used leeches and blood letting and celebrated healing when they say laudable pus (aka an infection). Choose almost any profession ... almost any institution ... and almost any individual and you can justify outrage. The past isn't perfect. It's just the past and how we got to where we are.

Yep. Brave is a great term for it. When I was young, it was having backbone or man-up or have a set of ####s. We had heros who taught us lessons about having to stand up for what is right and against what is wrong. Another more acceptable term, moral fiber. Or you could use the words "defend and protect" or "support and defend". ... or ... ... ... ... ... upstander, meh.

It seems "employee" is bring thrown about a bit too loosely. BSA may be responsible for it's volunteers, but ASMs are not employees. ASMs are worse off than unpaid volunteers. In fact, ASMs PAY to be members and volunteer. ASMs PAY to purchase training materials. ASMs PAY to get their uniform. ASMs PAY to camp. ASMs PAY to use BSA property. In reality, very little of BSA's treatment of volunteers looks like employees. It seems extremely shallow to summarize ASMs as employees. In fact, BSA looks more like a vender selling a product to the ASM voluinteers (and all scouting volunte

Training was generally fine. A few problems ... #1 "Everyone's opinions are valid". ... No. I value the person and make the effort to hear what they say. "Actively listen" without pre-judging. I'll bend over backwards to find truth and value in their statements. But we are still in a pandemic where people are upset because they claim their facts and asssert the other side was not using facts. ... My point is everyone's opinions are not valid. Everyone is to be valued and heard, but that does not mean all opinions are valid. #2 Weren't we already doing this

@ThenNow ... I'm not sure whether to ask these questions as it is part of a very painful experience for you and because it continues to haunt your life. Please accept my apologies for asking. In #4, the "they" is law enforcement right? Here is what I'm uncomfortable asking. ... Obviously, the chain of events is ugly and painful. My apologies, but I want to ask. It sounds like either the parents or the SE or someone in the chain of events called the police. That is what we want to happen. That's the right thing to do. Question ... If the police had the case and th

Grooming occurs. I fully believe that. There are predators preparing victims. I'm less comfortable with the statement trying to tell the difference between abusers and the healthy. Or the "truly kind". "I believe" (and I'm not an expert) that there is a justification process going on in the head of the abuser and an evolving process in the head of the abuser that helps the abuser live with their own evil acts. ... "I believe" the abuser must also go thru some type of natural evolution from helping and developing a connection with those they help to then change the relationship into

MB program screams for change. Personally, I would love seeing the Citz MBs merged into Civics. Now the big challenge is keeping the politics out of the changes. Anything hinting at picking a side or leaning one direction or another will blow up. 100% guarantee it.

Venue shopping though isn't just an issue for big companies. Even in these threads, we've heard lots of discussions for victims to justify pulling in their claims. Example I've seen is the CO and scout who are in SOL blocked states, but their once a year camp was located in an open state. Should victims be required to file where the majority of the relationship was? Or where they live? or where the majority of the incidents were? I don't like venue shopping either, but selective focus is wrong too. I'd like to see a consistent approach across all levels.

Evolve them beyond a brand new provisional patrol. Do activities to get them to know each other and to connect. Games. Activities. Work. Discussions. Anything. The more the better. Get them socializing together. Get them comfortable interacting together.

Are they safer without camp? After-the-fact individual case-by-case basis, yes. If you know in advance that a specific person will be abused, they are better off at home and not at camp. If you look at total numbers? Would the total number be less? I'm not sure. Most common abuser is a direct relative. After that, the abuser usually knows the victim in some context (neighbor, co-worker, coach, teacher, etc). In addition, other dangers exist as youth look for ways to spend their time. I'm aware of too many youth our city has buried because they made fatal mistakes in their spare t

It sounds right. Now old arguments. I'm sure some victims will get some funds, but I cringe at the the damage and the cost and the ugliness and the injustice in the whole process. I see the web sites of the advocates proclaiming their aggressive history and it's often listing those who have deep pockets. It smells. Side comment ... I'm not sure I'd want my lawyers propagandizing on twitter. We just got done with the mad twitter. Haven't we learned anything? ... What was that political guys name? I can't remember.

System didn't work if it keeps happening? You expect perfection in life? No crime? No evil? ... The system was not about eliminating all evil / crime ever. ... That is an impossibility that would not even be achieved by shutting down scouting as I'm not sure youth would be safer at home or safer in other activities that would fill the scouting vacuum. .... The YP system was to strongly discourage by making it very difficult and then to property handle when it happened while still allowing the scouting program continue. meaningless and irrelevant in the face of the visceral emoti

Yes. The irony, symbolism and explicit imagery is bad. Then again, the internet is filled with bad imagery from almost every type of profession, country, etc. ... The system worked. It got reported. The guy is in jail. That is what was supposed to happen. Sometimes doing right is hard when the image looks bad. The image is bad marketing. The actual bad is working to hide the imagery. Also Yes. BSA's YP is good, but evil and crimes still happens. It's how we discourage crimes and how handle incidents after they happen. Background checks. Training for awareness. Explicit

If the correct thing is to shut down, then public swimming pools and youth locker rooms are in question too. Shopping center fitting rooms and public bathrooms should close too. Evil exists. It's how we react to it that is important. It went to police. Charges pending. Not hidden, etc. I'm just not sure creating more fear is right either.

Hard to comment without violating the guidance to avoid commenting on lawyers, their motivations and their ethics. Perhaps the best path is to fail bankruptcy. Period. Pay the existing personal injury awards that have been blocked by bankruptcy. Then, partner with insurance companies in court on a case by case basis. Each of these cases could have their day court. Liquidation is not an answer either. Too many huge questions. Are LCs legally separate? Restricted assets? Pensions / benefits / PBGC / etc. I really question whether liquidation would ever result in more funds

Years.

I'm not sure of legalistics. I'm just suspecting that some will change to "Parents Of" instead of establishing "Facility Use" agreements and a council charter.

Yep. BSA is highly motivated. BSA's good in bankruptcy is moving on ASAP.

Great summary statement. So fundamental. I swear this smells very much like a person I knew from years ago. His profit was tied to delays and difficulty. A certain percent of companies gave up chasing small amounts they had a right to just because of delays or cost chasing the funds. It was tens of thousands at a time. It was unethical to me, but it was just business to him. It smells like this case. Way too many open questions, but rushing to a settlement that might not be legal. It feels like people want to get funds distributed even though it might later be found not le

... OR ... we end up having many "Parents Of" COs.