fred8033

Two different questions - Hardest to fill? Treasurer. It's hard to fill because the person needs to be committed to spend hours with scouting on paperwork during off-scouting hours. Their main preparation for scouting meetings is to prepare reports and chase money. Not to mention the person needs to be fairly organized and slightly technical savy. What would you hand them if they walked in off the street and wanted to volunteer? Something fun. Something specific. Organize and run and event. Run a program segment for a pack meeting. As specific as possible and as fun as possible. Something to get them ownership of the unit.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Packsaddle ... Revisionist history? I'm not an expert in this, but it's easy to see the topic is way more complex and both sided than your representing. And your throwing part of the truth out is just a way to defend your position without honest reflection. ... In 1537, another pope issued Sublimus Dei strongly condeming slavery with concepts such as rational beings with souls and slavery was driven by satan. In 1542, Spain was also the 1st nation to ban colonial slavery. The Christian / Catholic position on slavery has evolved over time. And then when you read about historical slavery discussed in the Bible it was usually discussing "just slavery" where an individual sells himself or another family member to pay debt. Very much related to the concept of an indentured servant. There were rules on how to treat such a person, how long it could go for (i.e. not indefinite), etc. One rule was that you could not enter just slavery thru capture. In 1839, Pope Gregory issued Supremo Apostolatus which condemned slavery and specifically the slave trade. Yes some american bishops did make legalistic arguements about trade versus own. But there was also a huge Catholic abolisionist movement. ... One point that I found really interesting is that when Mexico opened up Texas to american settlers, the settlers could not legally bring slaves in because Mexico (Catholic) did not allow slavery. (ummmm... The United States was founded essentially as and largely still is a protestant nation.) Of course Texas is also not an easy analysis. Lots of politics. Lots of situational issues. Lots of specifics. ... Anyway ... I'm providing just as much a choppy analysis of history. Catholic church was and is not perfect and has never been insulated from the politics of the times. But it's just a smear campaign to point your finger as your doing.

BadenP - Get a grip. Your wantonly uninformed hatred is driving you to irrationality better suited for Jerry Springer than rational society.(This message has been edited by fred8033)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Gumbies are hikin' down the trail with stuff lashed on, clipped on, or draped on like wilderness hobos." LOL. That was me about six years ago. I've been so focused on the current squeaks that I totally forgot about that first time. You quickly learn to not hang a water bottle. They are heavy. With each step, it wack'ed me. Not cool. That changed pretty fast. Any advice on the squeaks? I was thinking because I've got the expandable frame expanded to max. Comments?

Eagle732 wrote: "The troop's policy is we don't sign the fundraising app until the book is completed through to page 17 (fundraising app) and reviewed by us. Anyone else dealing with this? " Yes. We just require what the eagle book requires. That's thru page 10, not 17. If fundraising, he fills out that form and we sign it. Both the workbook thru page 10 and the fundraiser app is reviewed and signed off by the district advancement coord. Happens in one sitting usually within a few days of the eagle candidate requesting district approval. After that sitting, he uses the final plan (pages 11-17) and other documents as necessary to plan and run his project. There is room for interpretation. I don't agree with the interpretation, but your troop might find it useful to interpret it differently. It's probably not that big of an issue either way. ... Eagle732 wrote: "I don't recall ever getting anything back from council on a fundraising app. We just send them in and do the fundraiser and never worried about the waiting period." Huh. That's a new view. Never thought of it. I've been reading that, when the project is done, the scout needs to submit his workbook for his BOR and processing. So your saying the workbook would contain a Fundraising application that didn't have all the signatures? Huh. That's interesting. Not sure what I think about that.

"And then, the fundraiser form states that he must wait for 2 weeks before even contacting the business where he intends to do his fundraiser or the stores from which he hopes to secure donations of materials" Agree with previous poster. This is a mis-reading. The form says the following. Eagle Workbook quote: ""... and then submit the fundraising application to your council service center at least two weeks in advance of your fundraising efforts. You will be contacted if it cannot be approved or ..." IMHO, it means you need to schedule two weeks to get council appoval. But if the council designated rep approved it, then your good to go. The waiting time is over. It's just a warning to make sure you plan two weeks to get through council beaurocracy.

Tampa Turtle - Great points with very good reasons. "... but truth be told they were not the best examples of Scouthood to start with. " .... I've seen that tool. I think it's the age though as they test new more challenging boundaries such as dating, work and friends that drink or do drugs. In a way , I like the insullation of similar age patrols because older scouts tend to have more "interesting" conversations. Also, it's nice to not have older-scout attitude rub off on younger scouts. But that's me. I guess it comes down to what the troop wants and is hoping to achieve. When I look at my first two sons, I really like the experience my older son had. I'm sad for my second son because his patrol which has changed sever year to 18 months just has no identity and they break up to go be with their friends anyway. Sort of sad. Maybe it could have been done better. I don't know. I just know both of my sons started Boy Scouts with strong friendships with the other Webelos crossing over. my oldest now has life long friends and they quickly learned skills, leadership and how to help others. My second son has good friends but it's just not the same. Another reason that I do like age-based patrols. The older scouts tend to get chosen for SPL, TG, ASSPL, etc. Older patrols seem to survive better with members who pop in and out because of PORs. Younger scouts need to stick together more. Tampa though your points are still well taken.

Years ago I bough the only two we have. I bought two external frame packs. Kelty Yukons. One's a Yukon 2900. I forget the other number. I bought them with the idea I could strap alot on and also use carabiners to hang things. Well. They are comfortable and carry alot. Easy to use. Very flexible. BUT ... I really want to buy replacements. Probably internal frames. The problem with hanging things with carabiners is the noise as things bounce around. It gets noisy. Even though if you don't hang anything, it squeaks. Hours of hiking with squeak squak squak and you'll want to find a different pack too. Not sure if any pack doesn't squeak, but that's my highest priority these days for packs.

My gosh. This feels so wrong. Are we reaching some sort of agreement? I'd be okay with a SM not approving if the desired MBC historically does a bad job or has some other issue. Same with MB fairs though I've not seen one that does that bad a job. If anything, I've seen the opposite.

Beavah - I think your using edge examples to over emphasize the SM signature. courtesy issues - To me that's a membership issue, not a MB issue. A scout won't get far in anything if he can't work with others. If he won't ask me politely, then I won't sign. Of course. If I think he'll be rude to others, then I'll be talking with him about his future in scouts. But it won't be caused by his asking for MB card. Safety issues - of course ... if they really exist ... The only one I've seen is swimming which is the pre-requisite of the water related badges. The SM should council the scout. But if the scout thinks he can get it done for the badge, great. I'd also check with the MBC that the MBC will be doing a swim test and make sure we're on the same page. It's the job of the MBC to confirm requirements, not the SM. SM approval is in no way an indication that any badge requirement is complete. Heck, I'd even do that if I thought the scout could swim. I expect MBC for water related badges to make sure the scout passes the MB requirements for swimming. external restrictions - option, find another MBC or let the scout find another MBC. That happens. If you can't find another MBC, then the scout's out of luck. But that's not a SM disapproving the badge. camp restrictions for numbers - Then those restrictions are from the camp, not the SM. We've also asked about those limits in the past. If they are not overwhelmved with too many scouts, they've let our scouts in when we ask. The only one at our camp is First Aid MB. They'd get half the camp every year. But other badges like shutgun prioritize the available slots by age and rank and don't list a pre-requisite. Sometimes we don't even get 14 year old star scouts in because of too many scouts. But that's the camp restriction, not the SM. camp restrictions for ability - See safety above. ... While there are probably extreme cases that might cause a SM to say no, I haven't seen any. In my eight years, I've never seen our SM say no. Sometimes the SM has let the scout know he didn't get in because they had too many scouts or had established limits. But it wasn't the SM saying no.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I really like this article from the Scouting Magazine. It reflects my thoughts. The comment from "Scouter" on May 1, 2012 at 12:00 is pretty good too. http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/ ... Tampa Turtle: When they are moved from the new scout patrol to the forever patrol, are they in that patrol forever? Is the new patrol their choice? Can they switch if they want? Just wondering about patrol identity and ownership of the scouts over their own patrol. ... The only problem we've had is when a SPL or youth leader goes to a council led leadership training program and hears that patrols should be re-organized and scouts told what patrol they are going to be in. That's fine, but it's not how our troop has historically done it. Most scouts that have discussed it prefer the historical model. You are in a patrol with your friends and scouts of same age with similar experience level. But then they are told that's not how it's supposed to be. Sort of frustrating. We have to unteach some of that stuff by refering to scoutmaster handbook and boy scout handbook. .... I think the main reason I like age based / friend based patrols is that scouts tend to sign up for events by age and friendship. Snow huskies weekend is for new scouts ages 11 - 12. Spearhead requires scouts to be 13. High adventure 13 or 14 and up depending on event. With age / friendship based patrols, it is higher odds that more members of the same patrol are signing up to do the same activities together. Otherwise, it's a hodgepodge of scouts from a hodgepodge of patrols. (not sure if hodgepodge is a word)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Merlyn_LeRoy wrote: "so I'm limited to insults by saying..." Why are you limited to insults? Civility and tolerance is avoiding insults. State points. Debate ideas. Extend the discussion. You've done enough insulting and demeaning of others.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Merlyn_LeRoy: : "you ignorant hick" ... "Like phony hick accents" ... and thus clarifying the source of the real ugly hate spawning rhetoric. Merlyn_LeRoy - Shame on you. You should observe the scout law in this forum even though you are not a scouter and don't plan to become a scouter. Society needs a degree of civility to discuss ideas and exist together.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Ya learn something every day. I'd never seen all the different versions put side by side. Thank you Beavah. That was really cool to see. I still miss the more simple version that was established after Vatican II and used around 1975. http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm It's consistent with the new version but uses fewer sylabols. Easier to participate in after waking up from the sermon.

sasha - I like what you wrote in that cross-over is a boy scout process. I've always viewed it as a Cub Scout owned process supported by the Boy Scouts. Mainly because troops can accept boys at any time. But the reality is that troops often want Webelos to cross over at a specific time. So Webelos dens should coordinate with the troop when the cross over ceremony will be. It doesn't have to be at the B&G. Just like advancements. It can be any time. We've just grown accustomed to having the big B&G party be used to celebrate Webelos crossing into Boy Scouts. Nice point Sasha. Let the cross over be owned by the Boy Scout troops. Hmmm....

Tampa Turtle - I always hope cases like you mention are from the 1980s or earlier. From about the 1990s onward, there has been a strong emphasis on handling such situations correctly. It wasn't always done correctly though such as the 1989 Little Rascal's day care case or the early recovered memory cases. But organizations should have been moving from CYA to let's do the right thing, especially churches.

Get them their advancements at the pack meeting after they earn it. Don't wait. Your not. That's good. BUT ... Having B&G done in Feb is fairly important. Not critical, but it's an emphasized time. Boy Scout troops often prepare programs for new scouts starting in March. Work with your local troops to confirm. If in doubt, plan to celebrate 5th grade webelos becoming boy scouts in February at the B&G. I have seen scouts feel like outsiders for a bit because ten Cub Scouts cross to Boy Scouts in Feb and then another pack waited to March. The cubs then missed any welcoming ceremonies, introductions, parent talks, etc. Just a thought.

Swimming MB - "barely passing the swim test" - Ummm... I'd counsel and discuss it with him. Then I'd encourage and wish him the best. Isn't that the purpose of a MB? To learn and develop a skill? Seems totally appropriate to work on the swimming badge to become a better swimmer. Part of my counsel would be managing and measuring success. For him, success might not be leaving summer camp with a MB. It might be for him becoming a better swimmer. It might also be that he'll have to work harder than some of the other scouts and to not feel bad if others are ahead of him. We've had several scouts do both lifesaving and swimming at camp. Our advice was that they might want to be out of the water part of their day. But it was their choice. The main concern was if the classes met at the same time. Pioneering MB is a great way to develop T21 skills. Apply BSA's nonsensical statement. "Any scout can work on any MB with scoutmaster approval." If BSA had an issue with it, a Pioneering MB requirement would be that the scout first be 1st class. ... I'm looking back at my previous message. I should probably apologize for being a bit harsh. My dandruff was up over a different post.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah - Very well said. Tampa Turtle - That's funny in a sad way. I fell away during college, but later my wife and I started attending an evangelical church near our 1st house. I returned to the Catholic Church around twelve years ago because of theology. (too long a discussion for a bulletin board). IMHO, scandals exist everywhere. But it's hard to take the external bad press and bigotry and the internal total lack of marketing sense. For example, if you let an external organization like GSUSA know you are looking at the churches relationship with them, then you should darn well know it will get into press headlines. Anyway, I wish GSUSA the best and hope this is resolved successfully from both sides.

Zealot - That's a first. Cool. Studies ranging from 10% to 80% - yeah ummm if you bother to use any of those numbers without understanding where they come from, what they represent and if they are real, ... then your just plain intellectually dishonest. "threats of eternal damnation and hellfire" - I can't remember a single sermon about it. I grew up with a church that preached love, forgiveness, service and prayer. Sermons on hell and damnation sound more like some street corner self-proclaimed evalgelist. ... And ya know the last street barker I encountered was two years ago at 1:00am December 25th leaving midnight mass at my church after celebrating the greatest Christmas gift ever. And there on his home made pulpit (literally, a platform he built himself) was a man who was screaming at the top of his lungs for us to convert because our church was so evil. On Christmas morning. As we rejoice for the birth of our Lord. I don't even need to quote what he said because he sounded just like you BadenP.

How long? As long as the scouts want. Patrols are formed either #1 at the annual cub scout (new scout patrol) transition or #2 when a set of scouts want to create their own patrol. My first son was in the same patrol with the same scouts for seven years. It was a great experience and they were best of friends. A few scouts popped between patrols. Most didn't. No big deal. Their choice. The patrol got smaller over the years until it was just three scouts when they were 17 years old. That was fine. It was the 7th year and they were pretty independent and helped the troop as a whole. (different troop) My second son was in a new scout patrol with an assigned older scout because new scouts are too young to lead themselves. Ummm... yeah. Don't agree. Different topic. The net result is he (and his fellow scouts) have been bounced around a fair amount and they don't feel much allegiance to their patrol and no identity as a patrol. I clearly like the "forever" patrol model. Shaking up patrols? If you must, let the scouts choose ... preferrably individual scouts by choice ... not be leaders (youth or adult) dictating membership. But then again, that's me and our troop.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Nonsensical? Amazing how committed scouters mock BSA key guiding statements. Sometimes these strong statements exist because experienced scouters have so much experience that they lack the ability to listen and learn. Beavah - Much of your response is for exactly what the MBC SM approval is for. "Sometimes boys need to be counseled..." "and so steers him" Use the approval step to counsel and guide, but it's not really for a YES/NO stamp of approval. If a boy wants to work on a badge and won't take advice, let him. He'll learn his lesson when he tries to work with the MBC or tries to complete the requirements. It will be a learning experience for setting goals and taking advice. Discretion thru advice and coaching is the scoutmaster job. Dictatorship ... not so much. I've seen the "No, not yet" scouters way too often. Usually, it's when scouters don't trust scouts to have their own scouting experience. Perhaps this is a your troop versus my troop issue. Different troops. Different styles. Fine. I'm just glad I'm in my troop. I'll just smile at your troop and then go back to mine.

60% ??? BadenP is conveniently misquoting again to assert his anti-Catholic bigotry. And I do clearly 100% mean bigotry in every ugly hatefilled sense of the word. The 60% comes from a Vatican statistical analysis of the numbers. When clerical abuse happens, world wide the average is 60% homosexual in nature. In the US, it's 80% homosexual. It's not at all saying 60% or 80% of priests, monks or deacons are gay. It's analyzing the situations when abuse does happen. It's not at all analyzing the percent of the population. .... My wife says I'm a pretty socially liberal person, but I have mostly aligned with the Republican camp. I think the main reason is that when I was young all the mean ugly unreasonable bigotry ... and hatred ... I saw was from the Deomcratic side. When I saw misrepresentation of the facts, it was from a liberal side. We see that ugly rhetoric again in this discussion topic. I know it happens on both sides, but when I heard just plain ugly rhetoric, it was from Totenberg about Helms. Whoopi Goldberg on Sen Dole. Heck, I only ever heard racist comments when working in a union factory. I know it happens both sides of the fence. But even today, I see hatred inflamed mostly from one side. Perhaps, I was sheltered. My early conservative examples were thru the local Dorthy Day center or the Little Sisters of the Poor or Sister Giovanni helping the local hispanic high school drop out popuation. That's the conservatives I learned from. And ya know what, that's been fairly consistent thru the years. .... So a group of Catholic representatives are concerned that they are sponsoring a group whose culture and teachings might anti-Catholic. That's their right. There is a culture clash between GSUSA teachings and Catholic church teachings. But it's not central to GSUSA ... IMHO. Ideally, GSUSA should leave those topics to the families and the sponsor groups and the church should be able to just let the GSUSA be. But we're pretty political these days with many people spouting hatred. Just read what some people have written in this thread. .... On a lighter side that might be more topical.... "Girls need both female and male role models to be truly well rounded.", published in girl scouts, Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital, Volunteer Essentials, Girl Scout Year, 2011-2012, page 68. .... huh .... funny .... I think my Catholic Church would agree with this.

What level of defacing? Using a knife to cut words into it? Permanent marker? Ketchup? Other?

Second Class wrote: "While it may be perfunctory, it is not useless. ...." That's exactly as I learned it. It's not about scout readiness. (scout can work on any merit badge at any time) It's making sure the scoutmaster's included in the process, can coach the scout and guide the process. And, BSA doesn't even require scoutmaster approval all the time. For example, certain merit badge fairs, summer camps and special events such as Jamboree's don't require scoutmaster approval at all. I had to read http://usscouts.org/factfiction/meritbadges.asp to realize it's the next paragraph the explains the approval. GTA section 7.0.0.2 says "A unit leader should consider making more of the process than just providing an OK. The opportunity exists, then and there, to share in a young man's life. Preliminary merit badge discussions can lead to conversations about talents and interests, goal setting, and the concept of "challenge by choice." The benefits can be much like those of a well-done Scoutmaster conference." I've never seen a scout not receive scoutmaster approval.