fred johnson

BSA requirements are out of hand. Pedantic. Verbose. Cryptic. Legalistic. Youth excitement is killed immediately when they see two pages of small print requirements. Rank or merit badge. It gets worse each year and each handbook. IT DRIVES SCOUTS AWAY. I was reminded of the issue when I opened the following web page. http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/04/15/the-boy-scouts-of-america-then-and-now-a-comparison-of-the-1911-and-modern-handbooks-and-merit-badges/ I really like the old requirements compared to current requirements. Short and to the point. We recently worked on the cooking merit badge and that is one of the worst. New scouts coming in also face multi-page, small print, lengthy requirements for early ranks. ARGH !!!! SUGGESTION - Scouts should get short direct requirements. Leaders and merit badge counselors should have guidelines and work instructions that explain requirements and help guide working with the scout on the requirement. But what the scout receives should be short and sweet.

Great site. The How 1979 saved Scouting article caused me to remember how I greatly prefer the version 11 handbook over the version 12 handbook. It just seemed like you could actually use the version 11 handbook for something. Version 12 was like the book you put on the coffee table, glossy and fun to glance through but not functional.

Having a large set of sons, scouting has been expensive. I used to buy shirt after shirt. Now the boys just use what is left-over in the closet. This year was the first year we just didn't buy any summer camp or troop t-shirts. We have plenty and don't need to waste the $$$. With that said, $20 sounds like alot. We've used classb.com and had good price experience.

Everyone has strong opinions on how recruiting works from playing naive to people getting upset with poaching. We should face that strong emotions will follow as successful recruiting is the life blood of a troop. And the success of our troop is a reflection of us as individuals. Even more, it affects the experience of our sons. Strong emotions always follow when it follows our children. And there are contradictions everywhere in the process. - There are no feeder packs, but there are partnerships between packs and troops. If you are under the same charter organization, it is reasonably expected that each troop helps each other. Yes dysfunction and attitudes happen. But as mature leaders we are to work through them. Yes, scouts can go anywhere, but the packs and troops under the same CO should be expected to help and support each other. - When scouts go to another scouting unit, it will hurt emotions. Unit leaders invest and spend effort both supporting the pack and building friendships. When a family goes elsewhere, it is an emotional hit that makes you think what did we do wrong? Why did they not want to join us? - It is also because of the troop shopping environment that we've recognized a need to avoid problem scouts. We don't take on problem scouts anymore. I'm not talking about disabilities (often they are a blessing to the troop). I'm talking about strong behavior problems such that you hear "if any kid needs scouting, that kid needs scouting." The trouble is if that kid acts up when others are visiting the pack or even during normal events, you drive members away. Then, the troop gets a reputation and packs get tied to feeding another troop. As such, if a scouts is a behavioral challenge, it's often best to encourage them to go to another troop. Seriously. Personally, I think the whole recruitment process is broken and troop shopping is one biggest opportunity to leave scouting. These are my opinions. I realize others have different views. I can't stand the current dysfunction between packs and troops. And that's what it is, dysfunction. End rant. ... How about adding yet another discussion about the damage done by escalating Tiger to a full rank and now compounding that error by adding Lion cubs. Argh. Want to kill off Boy Scouts? Burn out the families on Cub Scouts.

Be up front with the new troop. Our troop has received a few scouts over the years where things fell apart between the scout and his previous troop and/or leaders. It happens. What we have done is very individualistic. But if the scout is done with the requirement, then I'd say he's done. No need to re-do with the new troop. But then again, that was one of our situations and it was pretty clear cut. Start the talk with the new troop. Now if this is just getting paperwork for Eagle signed off ... then talk to the district advancement committee. They've seen this before too. They may or may not have answers you like. But if things are as you represent, there is no reason the scout can't go directly to EBOR. There is no penalty for a disputed EBOR. Rather, it's about mending fences, etc. What I'm essentially trying to say is move past your existing troop? Work with new troop or district. Talk to them. That's your next step.

Fully agree. Worry less about implementing the perfect chain of command. Instead, focus more on inspiring our scouts to get out and do things. It's during the "doing" that the scouts naturally learn leadership and responsibility.

I fully agree. Bizarre. Simple concepts are over analyzed and misappropriated to push agendas. The most negative and abused concept now is "boy led". It's negative and abused because it's used to inject agendas and to usurp key roles. IMHO, I'd like to not hear boy led again for five to ten years. It's just too abused. Scouting is a simple program that gets way way too over engineered ... by the adults.

Sounds less of an issue of how to train scouts and more of worn-out leaders that need to move on and let the next generation run it.

@@Eagle94-A1 ... You're description says your view is the ASMs and troop is setup to fail. IMHO, I'd recommend de-scoping expectations and look for smaller successes. Perhaps, the success was getting the scouts out on the AT, hiking and stretching the limits and capabilities. As things improve, you can introduce the next thing. IMHO, knowing the end vision is great. Knowing how it's to work is great. ... but when it comes to reality ... troops need to continually re-adjust to the mix of scouts and adults ... and continually look for the next way to improve. Don't sweat the troop is not perfect. Just always look for what can we do better. And, have fun.

@@Eagle94-A1 ... Why are you coaching the SPL or assigning tasks to the SPL ? That's the SM's job. If the adults don't share the same vision, then more damage is done by having someone other than the SM guide and coach the SPL. Maybe that's your role in your troop and everyone understands it. But it seems confusing to me as that's explicitly the SM's job. FYI ... ASM job is not to provide additional, above and beyond, guidance to the scouts. ASM job is to support the SM. If your actions are not directed by or consistent with the SM, then don't do it. I've seen troops where the adults are not on the same page and multiple adults are trying to work their vision into the program by coaching the scouts themselves. IMHO, it's better for those adults to sit on their hands or find a picnic table to play cribbage.

Thanks for the heads up. I always remember that one but was surprised just now realizing it was not in G2SS. I knew I read it somewhere.

Well said ... IMHO ... if we want them to really mean something, then it's at the teaching moments. IMHO, that's where the issue is, the mentors. Too many warm bodies signing without expertise in topic or mentoring. Too many class based MBs. Too many wildly different levels of expectations. I'm not sure how to fix it. I just don't think you fix it by gate keeping at the end. It reminds me of taking my sons to two MB classes on one day. If the right MB counselor was there or a good environment, it would have been meaningful and inspiring. But the counselor had the MB book up and was essentially reading the MB and taking the scouts through the MB point by point in the book. When that was done for the second MB, we left after 15 minutes. My sons had wanted to go and then after seeing it would be another several hours of boredom, they just wanted to leave. I can't blame them.

Beavah ... as always, you are well spoken and have meaningful comments. IMHO, the rules exist as they are because of the mix of people. In an idyllic Utopian single troop, it works fine. But the reality is adult leaders change and have differences of opinion and differences of view point. In addition, scouts are all different between themselves too. I agree with "All things in balance". It's a matter of where you put the balance. IMHO and from BSA's comments, put it at testing the individual requirements. If the troop blows it or the scout skirted the issue ... and it's an important skill or significant hole ... then find a way to convey the skill and knowledge to the scout outside the advancement channel. That happens all the time. Advancement may not be a work-for-pay arrangement, but it's also not a certification program. If you go on high adventure or swimming, you need to make sure you are comfortable with the scouts and their abilities.

IMHO, this is not about "politically correct" or "everyone gets a trophy.". That is entirely wrong. This is about if someone does the work, they get the reward. If the scouts are not learning their skills, deal with it when they are evaluated for that skill. If scouts are not remembering their skills, add patrol competitions or situations where they use the skill. Put the scouts in situations where they need the skills. Otherwise, why are we even teaching the skills and using the learning of those skills as a requirement. Too many adults want to raise the bar when the scout wants to advance. IMHO, that's wrong and mean. Leaders see the BORs as the gotcha moment when they can enforce higher standards. That's wrong. The BORs exist to get feedback on the program and to encourage the youth. Period. If you want to raise the bar, improve the teaching and do more so that scouts use the skills.

IMHO, this is why the scout has a unit leader sit in the room. If the EBOR is out of place, the scout leader should call them on it. Period.

Well said. I'd only promote troop practice EBORs if the district level EBOR was not conducted to be a positive and friendly experience for the scout.

Where can I download a copy of "BSA's Rules & Regulations". BSA provides GTA, G2SS and other docs to help. I've never seen this promoted as a guiding document, but I would like to have a copy.

CherokeeScouter, on 19 Jul 2016 - 12:35 PM, said: By "not that I can see", I assume that is a view point statement. BSA GTA has it mentioned fairly well in section 4.2.3.1 "Active Participation". ... "Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met: "If a young man has fallen below his unit’s activity oriented expectations, then it must be due to other positive endeavors—in or out of Scouting—or due to noteworthy circumstances that have prevented a higher level of participation. "A Scout in this case is still considered “active†if a board of review can agree that Scouting values have already taken hold and have been exhibited. This might be evidenced, for example, in how he lives his life and relates to others in his community, at school, in his religious life, or in Scouting. It is also acceptable to consider and “count†positive activities outside Scouting when they, too, contribute to his growth in character, citizenship, or personal fitness. Remember: It is not so much about what a Scout has done. It is about what he is able to do and how he has grown." ... ... "In considering the third test, it is appropriate for units to set reasonable expectations for attendance and participation. Then it is simple: Those who meet them are “active.†But those who do not must be given the opportunity to qualify under the third-test alternative above. To do so, they must first offer an acceptable explanation. Certainly, there are medical, educational, family, and other issues that for practical purposes prevent higher levels of participation. These must be considered. Would the Scout have been more active if he could have been? If so, for purposes of advancement, he is deemed “active.†"We must also recognize the many worthwhile opportunities beyond Scouting. Taking advantage of these opportunities and participating in them may be used to explain why unit participation falls short. Examples might include involvement in religious activities, school, sports, or clubs that also develop character, citizenship, or personal fitness. The additional learning and growth experiences these provide can reinforce the lessons of Scouting and also give young men the opportunity to put them into practice in a different setting. "It is reasonable to accept that competition for a Scout’s time will become intense, especially as he grows older and wants to take advantage of positive “outside†opportunities. This can make full-time dedication to his unit difficult to balance. A fair leader therefore, will seek ways to empower a young man to plan his growth opportunities both inside and outside Scouting, and consider them part of the overall positive life experience for which the Boy Scouts of America is a driving force. "A board of review can accept an explanation if it can be reasonably sure there have been sufficient influences in the Scout’s life that he is meeting our aims and can be awarded the rank regardless of his current or most recent level of activity in Scouting. The board members must satisfy themselves that he presents himself, and behaves, according to the expectations of the rank for which he is a candidate. Simply put: Is he the sort of person who, based on present behavior, will contribute to the Boy Scouts of America’s mission? Note that it may be more difficult, though not impossible, for a younger member to pass through the third-test alter

I've seen multiple scoutmasters and multiple parents sign a doctors signature on their own forms or their kid's form.

That site had lots of great documents, books, articles, etc. It was amazing to see all the old books. I'll have to go to the wayback machine and download the ones I had links on our unit web site. The books were amazing to page through.

I call them arbitrary deadlines when you look at the repercussions and who's on the late list. If the kid can still go or there is a way to make it happen, then it's arbitrary. Call it a preferred date. It's just not a deadline. The funny one is when I've seen these deadlines and who's missed the deadline. It's usually the scoutmaster and his kid; the camp coordinator and his kid; other key leaders and their kids. I always enjoy it when the person publishing the date misses the date too.

But it seems like it was handled right. He made the mistake and ignored the deadlines. He's the one who corrects it for his own kid.

Stuff happens. He could have handed it in on time and someone still missed that detail. I've seen that happen too. People collected and inspected the form, but a key detail was missed. Or a detail they thought was not that important. If the above parent was mad at the scoutmaster, then I bet that parent has been mad at other leaders and/or the scoutmaster at other times too.

Actually you can. We've had scouts who ignored communications, go get a physical and their parents drive them to camp and get there before the rest of the troop gets there.

No flaming necessary. Your statements are reasonable. I just believe there are other approaches that work too. IMHO, it's only a hard deadline ... IF ... your other troop leaders stand hard with you and don't let scouts sign up late. In our troop, we'll bend over backwards to help the scout get to camp. It's at camp where scouts learn the hard lessons by working with the other scouts and developing their own independence and responsibilities. I also think it's a matter of viewing how the job should work. One way is more orderly with a strong process and lots of communication. The other is more organic and rolls with the punches. Ultimately, scouts can't go to camp without the health forms. If parents don't provide them, that's their issue. For our troop, the deadline is leaving for camp ... and even then it's not always a hard deadline as we've had clinics fax the physical form to camp after the scout already left for camp. IMHO, let the parents do the work. Keep your records simple. Keep your organization simple. And most importantly, don't sweat it. It's parents money and kids. It's the parents kid who loses out if the parents blow it.