Eamonn

Anyway... Seems in the area where I live we have 3 groups: Group 1 The program types Group 2 The Camp Workers Group 3 The "Suits" Most times (Not all the time) For someone who is involved in program (Read: Working with youth) To receive a Silver Beaver, he or she would normally have been awarded the District Award of Merit. The District Award of Merit is normally given for service to the District, above and sometimes beyond service given to a unit. Our Camp Workers are a group who almost seem to live up at the Camp. We don't have a Camp Ranger and some of the projects that these guys take on are beyond belief. Many of these guys are skilled tradesmen who donate their time and energy, saving the Council a fortune. Very often because they do what they do when no one is in camp they are not well known. The "Suits" tend to be people who have donated a significant amount of money to the Council. Some have served on the Board, some just are willing to give their support. Of the groups the program guys are the most vocal! A good many of them think that Awards are only and should be only for the people who work with the youth. We award 3 or 4 Silver Beavers each year. To the best of my knowledge we only have two Distinguished Eagles and one Silver Buffalo. We also only have one person with the International Scouter's Award (me)! And No, I don't think I'm butt kissery! I do think I might be a "Card holding member of the good old boys Club." And I'm not ashamed of it Ea.

I know that I have posted this before. Back when I was a District Commissioner. One year I was really pushing for one of the U/C's to get the SB. The fellow was a super nice fellow, who had given a lifetime to and for Scouting. Always involved in Cub Scouting. That year our District Chairman was on the selection committee. I called him at home after the meeting of the selection committee and asked if my guy had got it? He said that he had done his best but just couldn't get the committee to see things. I went into one of my long rants, which I'm sometimes known for. At times I wasn't very kind about the people on the selection committee. When I finally took a breath I asked what idiot had been selected? I was shocked and dumbfounded when he informed me that I'd got it! I still believe that the U/C was more worthy than me and the following year when I sat on the selection committee I managed to push his Beaver through. Sadly he is no longer with us, but his SB was in his casket. Looking at the list that was provided: FOS presenter Camporee Chair District committee District Eagle board presenter at Round-table. I sit guilty as charged. As for " butt kissery " I'll get back to you on that one. Ea.

Don't know about others? But it took me a fairly long time to grasp any sort of a real understanding of the youth led program. I remember when I was a young leader, I kinda followed what I'd experienced as a youth. The PLC was used to relay messages from the Scout Leader to the Patrols. While we discussed things the plan (idea) came from the adult and was relayed down. I did this for a number of years. Later I out grew this and moved on to being more of a coach. I was still calling the plays, but the youth members had a little more input and a little more freedom to at times plan and do things that they wanted. But I still very much needed to feel that I was "The Man" and it was very much my show. It took me about 10 or 12 years (I'm a slow learner!) to feel comfortable allowing them to call the shots and carry something that started as their idea all the way through to completion. I know that I still tend to steer or try and steer my ideas through. I just don't seem able to give up on the idea that I know what's best. Ea.

Maybe it's the adults who are serving the Scouts are the reason? Seems to me that at one time the adults knew a lot more about what we called Scout-craft. A great deal of time was spent preparing for making yourself comfortable in the great outdoors and then doing stuff in the great outdoors. Troop meetings were planned around teaching and learning these skills, weekends were spent putting into practice the stuff that had been done at the Troop meetings. I meet far too many adult leaders who just don't have the skills and seem happy not to acquire them. Troop meetings are about inviting a parent who qualifies as a MBC to attend and cover that badge. Then the only requirement in order to "Earn" the badge is to have sat through Mr. Soandso class. When I was Skipper I never met a Boy Scout no matter what Boy Scout rank he held who was able to tie even the basic knots, most had no idea how to use a map and a compass. With the exception of one Lad who had all sorts of problems. Each and every Lad was able to master this stuff. So who is at fault? Who signed off that he was able to do this stuff? And more importantly -Why did they sign off? A lot of the blame can also be placed with Council run summer camps, it is bad enough that Scouts spend an entire week rushing from MB class to class but worse still is the MB's that are being offered. Do we really need to cover the Citizen MB's at camp? Is summer camp the place for MB's that really should be about something that a Lad has an interest in, not something that he feels he has to do because the SM sees he has an open hour after lunch. I'm thinking about MB's like Art and the like. (End of Rant.) Ea.

There are some things that are just what they are! A PLC can decide when is a good time to wear uniforms but they really shouldn't go about changing the uniform. There are things and places that I just plain do not want to do or go. I don't have a problem with them deciding that they want to do something or go somewhere, but as part of their planning they need to take that into account. There are also times when they want to do something and I have other plans or commitments and they need to take that into account. Most often I will help them find what they need. There have been times when it has become clear that something just isn't working and I have put my foot down. Most times when this has happened I have been upset and maybe a little mad. When it comes to spending Troop funds. It is fine and dandy that they make a request, but the final decision rests with the Troop Committee. Youth members do not have any say in who the adult unit leaders are. They shouldn't have a vote in who is and isn't allowed to join or remain in a unit, or the punishment of any youth member. They can of course make a statement about a youth member, but any kind of punishment needs to come from the Troop Committee (Who as a rule takes the word of the SM.) I don't believe that youth members should be involved in the final word about advancement. They should follow the rules that are set down by the authority of where the are at. Even if they disagree and think that the rules are silly. (If the Council camp has a no sheath knife rule- Then thats the rule and it needs to be followed) If they have a meeting in the local LDS Church Hall and they don't allow soda pop then that's the rule. We had a problem with the Ship's Yahoo group page. When we first started we allowed anyone to post whatever. Then it got out of hand. People picking on each other and taunting each other. The Quarterdeck met and selected one Sea Scout and me to be the ones who pre-read all the postings. Then the Scout that they selected went MIA for a while. No one wanted to take on the task, but they wanted to keep the page up and running. In the end with no one looking after it. The page just became dormant. I was OK with just sending out group emails. So it was their choice to let it die. Ea.

As I have posted many times I'm not in favor of banning things. I do at times point out why taking some things is not such a good idea. More often than not the person will take the hint and decide not to take it. We have at times talked about meals. While I of course am a big fan of the full English /Irish Breakfast. The truth is that other than the odd Sunday I leave the house after just two cups of coffee. Most of the Scouts say that when they do eat breakfast, it's only a bowl of cold cereal. Some Scouts say that they have never eaten a cooked breakfast at home ever. This makes me wonder why a cooked breakfast at camp is so very important? I'm not saying that its not nice, just not really needed. While I'm not a fan of long lists of what is and what isn't allowed. I can and do see that these lists are a useful tool for parents and can save them a lot of fuss and bother. Very often I really do think that these lists have more to do with what the adults might feel about them than any real reason. That isn't to say that there are times when these rules do make sense. Back when I first joined Scouts the Troop (The SM) Had a rule that we were not allowed to wear socks till lunch time. His (The SM) Thinking was that the socks got wet with the early morning dew and you ended up with wet feet all day. I still don't wear socks when I first get up at camp! Back in the day we did have a problem with Boom Boxes, some of these had more bass than was good for you. Thankfully they were very hard on batteries and then along came the Walkman. While I know that those who are hard-line "No electronic devices" are going to stick by their guns. I think that we are very close to the day when cell phones and smart phones are going to just be the norm. I'd sure hate a Lad to quit Scouts over a cell phone. Maybe rather than a list of what is and what isn't allowed, it might be better if we remained flexible and looked at each activity and the merits of allowing or not allowing whatever. This seems like a good task for the PLC. While maybe an i-pod might be OK on a hike, it might not be such a good idea on a canoeing trip. Eagle92, Back when I did the Duke of Edinburgh Award (I have Bronze, Silver and Gold Awards.) We carried an emergency 10p to use in a public phone box. - No one had even heard of cell phones! Being as we were in the middle of nowhere we might have been better off with a homing pigeon! Eamonn

Most Council Summer Camps have guidelines in place setting out what the dress code should be. At our Camp Scouts are expected to be in uniform for breakfast and dinner as the flag ceremony follows both meals. After breakfast? It seems that each Troop decides what it is they want to go with. Some wear Scout shorts, socks and some kind of Scouting T-shirt, while others are OK with jeans and almost any T-shirt. The camp frowns on shirts that it deems as being un-appropriate. I think that we should dress for the weather and the activity that is being done. In the winter when it's cold I see no point in Scouts wearing a Scout uniform, especially when it's going to be covered up with a winter coat and it isn't seen anyway. For Patrol Camps, I'm happy to let the Patrol decide what they want to go with. Have to own up to being a bit of an old mother hen when it comes to Scouts out on boats. While Scouts not wearing a top does not in any way upset me. I worry about them getting too much sun and ending up with sun burn. So I do remind them of this a lot! And leave big bottles of sun block out for everyone to use. While I'm all for correct and full uniforms I do think that a lot of Troops do wear them a little too often and often wear them when there is no need. Ea.

The Council has a newspaper which comes out bi-monthly. It used to be snail mailed to everyone. This was very expensive and the cut off date to get things in the newspaper was sometimes so early that some things didn't make it. Now it is emailed and people have the option of paying $20.00 a year to have copies mailed to them. Organizers of events can opt to have the Council mail a letter to the unit leader. I tend to use post cards with the details printed on my home computer and address labels. We are a very small District with only 42 units so it isn't that expensive. Each unit has a mail box, which is at every R/T. The idea was /is that anyone can put whatever in a units mail box and it can be picked up by who ever attends the R/T. If no one from that unit is there the U/C was to deliver the mail. Sadly attendance at R/T's is very poor and the Commissioner staff are very few. The DE tried setting up something on Twitter, but it never really got off the ground. There is a Council web site. I'm not sure why? But even after all these years the Council seems to be afraid of it and has never given anyone the responsibility to take care of it. I did notice in the last Council newspaper that another District is setting up a Face-book page. Be interested to see how that works for them. Our DE has a way where he records a message on his phone and the message is sent out to everyone at the same time. I never really had a problem getting the word out to the unit leaders. In fact a good many of our guys seem to like the idea of being the first to know and enjoy being the person who is "In the know" and able to tell others. The big problem was getting the word out to the adults who were not the unit leader. Very often a CM would know what was going on but just didn't bother to tell the Den Leaders or Pack Committee members. A few years back we had a problem with a District Commissioner who loved sending out emails. I think he forwarded every joke and every prayer he received. Sometimes I'd receive as many as 20 or more a day. Many of these were very close to the mark, they also tended to be very right wing making fun of the Democrats and anything seen to be in any way liberal. A lot of them had that thing at the end stating that if you didn't forward it to 107 other people something bad would happen. In the end me and a lot of others got fed up and just blocked him. Ea.

stevejb Thank You. I really am at a loss for words. I suppose we should be glad that Scouts and Scouting was such a big part in a life that ended all too short. My heart goes out to his parents and members of the Troop. Ea

I first took WB back in the 1970's. At the time I was a young know it all Scout Leader in the UK. The only reason I took it was that I needed it in order to be an Assistant Scout Leader at the 1975 World Jamboree. As a youth, the Troop I was in one of the better Troops. Very active and kinda old school, doing traditional type scouting in traditional ways. Being a Queen's Scout, I was very full of myself. Wood Badge in the UK at that time treated the participants as Scouts, placing them in Patrols, having them work on Scouting type challenges. The Staff while for the most part proficient with the skills needed tended to be graybeards and maybe a little full of themselves. I had a great week, but I treated the entire thing as a bit of a joke. When I moved to the USA, I first took the Cub Scout WB. This was a course intended for people involved in training people involved in training. While held at a Scout Camp, it could in my opinion just as easily been presented in the conference room of the local Holiday Inn. All the meals were served in the dining room, there really was nothing of a practical nature to do. This was a Regional Course and the staff tended to think that they were the cream of the crop. Something that was made very apparent when I later was invited to join the staff of a course. Before being invited to staff the Cub Scout course I was invited to staff a Boy Scout course. I was one of two new faces. Everyone else had served together numerous times. I did feel very much like an outsider, while maybe some of these old timers were willing to award me a couple of "Brownie Points" For having taken the course at the real Gilwell Park, the fact that I'd taken the Cub Scout WB was not seen as a good thing. I went on to serve as a staff member for a good number of Boy Scout WB courses and was at times witness to some of the silliness that went on. At times and on some courses the silliness overshadowed the real aim of the course and worse still was the fact that many of the participants came away seeing this silliness as being what WB was all about. I served on one of the first 21st Century WB Courses in our area. It was of course new and the CD invited seven guys who had served as SM on past courses to serve on staff. They just didn't get it. They were unable to accept that this new course was in fact the new course.They just didn't like the new course. I served as CD for a 21st Century course. Over half the staff had never served as a staff member before and I was a real pain when it came to sticking to and following the syllabus. I hope and like to think that everyone was very aware that the course was for and about the participants. A good number of whom have gone on to serve on courses as staff members. I know that I was selected as a staff member and later as a CD because I was in with the people who had the last words on these selections. I had over the years put myself forward and got involved in the Training's that were offered at the Council and District level. Of course when I first got involved people were unsure about me. Not sure what my motives were? Not sure how skilled I might be and maybe what my attitude was. Of course the more I got involved the more people I worked with and the more we got to know about each other. I think it is only normal that when you are asked to get something done you ask people you know who can get the job done along to help. Even if the risk is that it might be seen as some sort of elitist group. When I wear a uniform I do wear my set of 4 beads. I am proud of them but I hope that maybe in some ways that they mark me as someone that others can come to and ask questions. Maybe some kind of a "Go to Guy"? I have attended a lot of training's some have left me feeling inspired and wanting to go out and set the world on fire, while others have left me feeling that attending was a complete waste of my time and the time of others. As a Council Training Chair. I really wanted to do everything possible to ensure that people didn't come away feeling that their time was wasted. I am a big fan of training. I enjoy spending time with adults who share the same values that I hold close to my heart. I also have a lot of fun at trainings. I think the 21st Century course is not a bad course. But I wish that maybe it wasn't called Wood Badge. In time it will be accepted as being The Wood Badge Course, but as long as there are people who want to look back and compare it to what it once was there will be an on going discussion which one was the better. I do not in any way feel that I belong to any kind of a cult. Wood Badge is just a course. Some courses will be presented better than other courses, some participants will take away more than others. Some Patrols will form bonds that last a lifetime while some will have a hard time remembering each others names five years after the course ends. Some people I know talk about their WB experience almost like my Father-In-Law talked about his service in the armed services during WWII. A time of wonderful fellowship while working under pressure. They see what I see as the silliness as part and parcel of the course and look back on the window dressing with great fondness. Basementdweller, I'm saddened to hear that the course you attended didn't live up to your expectations. A lot of what we try to do in Scouting falls short of maybe what we might want or like. My hope is that just like the meeting or camp that we might be involved with falls short of our own expectations, we don't give up or point fingers, we in fact do our best to try and make the next one better and the one after that better still. I know from your postings that you are a very busy fellow, but at some time you might want to remember how bad your experience was and then take on the job of making sure that no one else has to suffer as you did. Ea.

"but the kids look so young !!! " When you get as long in the tooth as I am! The parents look so young! Welcome. While serving on the Area Committee, I had one shirt with the Area Committee Patch and wore yellow (Gold) loops. These yellow loops seemed to act like a magnet, attracting anyone and everyone who wanted to moan and groan. I didn't wear it very often! Ea.

Oak Tree I enjoy soccer. Living in the part of London that I did, I was very fortunate to be close to both Chelsea and Fulham football clubs. Chelsea was back at that time a First Division team and poor old Fulham was at times a third or fourth division team. When one team was playing at home the other played away, so every Saturday there was a game and it didn't cost a lot to attend. Fulham played by the river next door to Bishop's Park which had the Palace of the Bishop of London inside its walls. It was a public park and the Fulham Cub Scouts played inter-pack soccer games at the same time as Fulham were playing. Sometimes Fulham played so badly that it seemed half the supporters would turn their back on the game to watch the Cub Scouts play. When I first moved Stateside, I worked in Pittsburgh and of course most people claimed to be Steelers Fans. I had a real hard time comprehending that so many people who had never been to a game could be fans. Years went by and a pal of mine invited me to go with him to a Monday night Steelers game. This was back at Three Rivers Stadium. It was a very cold November night. We arrived and started climbing and kept climbing. My back was against the the very top wall of the stadium. The wind was coming off the river. I was nearly frozen! The players looked like matchstick-men. The game kept stopping in order for the TV stations to make a few dollars. My pal had two seats in this ice box and was /is a season ticket holder. To sit through that season after season? Maybe is some kind of loyalty. Ea.

Not to hijack the thread. But.... "To make people think the Super Bowl is All American?" I have a bit of a problem when they talk about the winners being the: "World Champions"??? Anyway. Used to be when I was a nipper in England that they played God Save The Queen in the movie theater after the feature film. Of course this was back when you had a "B" film, Pathe News and local ads. Great value for half a crown! Please don't tell anyone but very often I find myself adding "Play Ball" when the "Home of the Brave" is done. Not out loud, just that stray little thought that sneaks in.

"This above all- to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. Some things, like respect, loyalty and love are only worth anything if they are given freely. No one can or should be forced or feel forced to be loyal. There is a difference between true loyalty and obligation. My first loyalty is of course to myself. I'm aware that sounds, maybe a little strange and very selfish. But for me I have to believe and have faith in the people and groups that I'm going to be loyal to and for. At times my faith can be tested and I come away feeling not as loyal as maybe I once was. I think that each of us has our own definition of loyalty. I understand how a player on a team can be loyal to the team, but because the team is always changing, I find it hard to grasp how a fan can see his following them as loyalty. As an employee I feel that in many ways that I'm obligated to go to work. If I won a great deal of money? I'm not sure if I would continue to keep going to work. That doesn't stop or prevent me from being a faithful, trustworthy and caring employee. With regard to Scouts and Scouting. I hope that over the years I have remained loyal to the ideals of Scouting, even though at times others, sometimes the people at the top have in my eyes let me down. Eamonn.

"'God Save the Queen' Yeah, the Sex Pistols had a really nice version of that one" Have just been hit by a mental image of what the Sex Pistols might have done with the Star Spangled Banner! Think it's best if I don't even go there! (And I'm not going to comment on the title of the album!) I used to work after school at a store across the road from where the Sex Pistols got started. On the outside the store had a big neon clock which ran backward it had in blazing neon lights "To Fast To Live To Young To Die". I always thought it was kinda strange that across the road there was a pub that had been there for eons called the The Worlds End. -It served a good Cornish Pastie! Ea.

Much as I hate to sound unpatriotic. I thought the Black Eyed Peas were very good. A vast improvement on the Who last year. HWMBO worked last night. (A busy night in the ER.) It seems that a lot of people are talking about the National Anthem and are not very happy about it. But then again maybe it beats talking about the Steelers? Ea. ( We never seem to run into the same problems when it comes to people singing God Save The Queen!)

While some Packs go to great pains to ensure that the Lads who are crossing over are exposed to Troops in the area, in most cases it's the parent who has the final word. Most parents don't know about CO's.( A lot of Scout Leaders don't!) They think that the Troop meets where it meets just because that's where it meets. Parents are more lightly to send their son to a Troop where they know the SM. Even if they don't know him well, just knowing of him makes them feel he is someone that they can trust. Most times this will be the SM with the same unit number of as the Pack. Parents will do what is most convenient for them. When my son crossed over he went to a Troop where he knew the SM. At that time there wasn't a Troop chartered by a R/C Church. When he made up his mind to change Troops there was a Troop chartered by the local R/C Church, but they met on Sunday. Both HWMBO and myself were unwilling to change what we did on Sundays in order that he might attend Troop meetings. So he joined a Troop that met on a Tuesday night, which was better for us. The R/C Troop was started by the fellow who replaced me as CM. The Troop started with a group of Webelos Scouts who had been together since Tigers. The Troop was very much counting on the Webelos Scout Den the following year joining the Troop but the Den Leader guided the Den to another Troop, mainly because she didn't get along with the SM. It had nothing to do with program, just that her and him just didn't see eye to eye. This really hurt the new Troop. Ea.

"it's a program for parents and families as well. Through our programs we can show some parents alternative ways of living their lives and managing their family life. " With all the respect in the world, I don't agree. I have seen kids change, in part because of Scouts and their involvement in Scouting. I think we all hope that the kids we serve today will in time take the good stuff that they have received and put it to good use. In time? That might be tomorrow or when they become parents. Most of the time we don't know what bits have stuck. I have have on very rare occasions (3 times in over 30 years.) Had a unhappy parent come to me and ask for help with something to do with their son. Saying something like "Your the only one he will listen to." When I was faced with that, I tried to work with the Lad to change,I didn't try and change the family. I of course have had more than my fair share of Scouts who come from homes where things are not good. Where parents have real problems. In these cases the most I have been able to do is be there for the Scout offering my help and support. I'm not silly enough to think that I'm going to fix what's wrong at home. Ea.

stangle2 Welcome. When it comes to Charter Organizations, the level of support varies a lot. In the area where I live other than allowing units the use of a meeting place and if the unit is lucky the CO will pay the $20.00 fee. Units get very little else. The church which I attend charters a Troop. It allows the Troop to meet in the church hall. The Troop can hold the odd bake sale after Mass and the church takes up a collection on Scout Sunday for the Troop. That's all they get. But it is a lot more than some of the other units get. What sort of contributions were you getting? Most CO's (Not all -We have a Pack in the District that has a funeral home as its CO.) Are non-profit organizations and it is unusual for one of them to go under. Ea.

Most of the people who post here are very passionate about Scouting. They also really care about the youth they serve. I don't know how much time they get to spend with these youth members? I have known Scouts who for them Scouts and Scouting is just one of many activities, something they belong to and have fun doing. If questioned Scouts and Scouting might come after sports but maybe before the Chess Club. I have also known Scouts who don't do much else other than Scouts and Scouting and it seems that every time you look they are there. Thinking about the thread about kids and divorced parents got my little gray cells moving. Over the years in the forum we have talked about a lot of things that a kid or a parent might do. Everything from what kids eat, how much time they spend playing video games, what time is bedtime, how much physical activity they need/get, what soda they should or shouldn't drink. I can and do see that during the times these kids are with us at camp or where ever, we can have some control over some of this kind of stuff. How it is managed? Can be looked at in another thread. A lot of good ideas are covered in some of the requirements we use for advancement. But a lot of the things each of us might think is important isn't. For example, when OJ was a Cub Scout bedtime was at 2030. I couldn't understand why some parents were happy to allow their son to stay up to the early hours of the morning. I couldn't understand parents who said that their son only ate cereal and hamburgers. There was and still is a lot of stuff that parents do or don't do with their kids which is just beyond me. I just don't get it or understand it. But I do understand that at the end of the day these kids belong to these parents. So while the Lad is at camp we might eat a wonderful heart healthy diet and not wash it down with glass after glass of Jolt. We might say a prayer of thanks before each meal and do all that kind of nice and good stuff. The truth is that at the end of the camp or the camp out the Lad will return to the way things are done at his home. What happens in his home, maybe isn't the way we do things in my home? But no matter how not right I might think these things might seem to me, I know that I can't prevent these things. I can show and have the Lad make wonderful tofu oat burgers (Yuck!) But when he gets home if the fridge is empty and Dad is calling for a pizza with extra cheese and a couple of bottles of Jolt. Then that's whats on the menu at this Lads home. I can look down my nose at it and think what I like. At the end of the day. I'm only going to see this Lad one weekend a month and for maybe a couple of hours a week. I'm not sure how far we (Scouter's) should go or try to go to change things? Eamonn. (Got to buy a new key-board this one is playing up!)

I haven't taken the time to visit the BSA web site. But maybe someone can help me out? I seem to think that the BSA used to, and maybe still does make mention that the ban on gays is for "Avowed" Homosexuals. I have a bit of a problem with the avowed bit. Please believe me when I say that I'm not looking for loop holes. Tuoc Syag posts:"I am openly gay and have been an atheist since the age of 13." If he said when he knew that he was "openly gay"? Then I missed that bit. I'm not sure when or at what age you find out what your sexual persuasion is? Then I'm not sure what you have to do in order to make it avowed? Do you have to have sex? Is someone who has never had sex really gay or straight? I have an aunt who is a devote Catholic, she never married and to the best of my knowledge has never been with a man or a woman. I don't know if there is or there isn't any reason for this. As a teenage Scout, I was what I now think as naturally curious and did things that might be viewed as "Gay". While I have been happily married for going on 30 years, I do at times enjoy the company of an all male group. I have known and worked with men who are straight, but are for whatever reason seen as being a little effeminate. Christmas 2009 a Scouter that I looked up to all of my life passed away. He'd served as the District Commissioner and a Assistant County Commissioner in the area of London I come from. This was before the UK allowed gay leaders. It turns out that this fellow was gay. Looking back, I suppose there were signs, but no one seemed to notice - I guess by BSA standards he wasn't "Avowed"? While I'm sure that there are people who are true atheists. I don't wish them any ill will. I however am not sure that a Lad of 13 has explored enough to know at that age if he is indeed a true atheist. Many of the young people who I have talked with who say that they are an atheist are more about rebelling against organized religion than in fact being hard core atheists. Of course some have given the matter a lot of thought and really are. Tuoc Syag, I have to admit that I really wouldn't be that happy to have you serve as an Assistant Scoutmaster. I really am not sure if you are able to do the job. I do think that if you were a youth member in a Crew or a Ship that working with the right leader you might be able to explore a little more. It might be that you are indeed an avowed gay atheist. In which case this really isn't the organization for you and if you really are a person of character, you will see this and leave. Eamonn.

We at the end of the day are volunteers. Most of us are not qualified as Family Counselors and need to be careful that what we do is not seen or perceived as meddling or interfering. I have never gone through a divorce. I did watch from the sidelines when my brother and his wife split. They thankfully didn't have any kids, but for a fair amount of time it was all out and out war. I of course love and care for my brother, I also liked his wife (Now ex-wife.) A lot. At the time when they decided that the marriage was at and end, they seemed to both want things that they could fight about. Kinda like they were both out to score points on who could find something that would upset the other. A situation that wasn't helped by what I seen as overly zealous lawyers. I think if they'd had a child they would have used him as part of their game of oneupmanship. I have had unhappy Lads who are Scouts come to me and inform me that they can't do a Scouting activity because they have to be with a parent who has reasons mainly the parents reasons why the Lad can't. I have a few times visited with the parent and asked on the Scouts behalf if he could attend the activity? Sometimes this has worked, sometimes my request has fallen on deaf ears. I think it's important that we remember that the Scout is their son and we need to respect the wishes of the parent. Even when we might think that they are wrong. We also need to try to not take sides, while at the same time being there for the Lad. Kids in families that are going through a split are stressed out and confused enough. If we allow ourselves to add to this, we really are not doing anything to help and risk adding more stress to a situation that is hard enough on the Lad as it is. At times the most we can do is just be there and be willing to listen. Things do, after a while seem to settle down. Parents stop the fight or the Lad finds his own voice and is able to make his own case. Ea.

I'm really happy that it looks like your Lad has found his nook. I have at times marveled in how when we all use the same materials and attend the same training's that things can be so different from one Troop to an other. This isn't always a bad thing. The Troop that OJ was in, up until he aged out had its own way of doing things. A lot different than I would have done them. His SM was (and still is!) A very nice fellow. Served for a very long time until his wife passed away. The Troop was very much about him and the way he thought that things should be done. Advancement ruled (At times with his interpretation of the requirements.)No such thing as a PLC or in put from the youth members. He decided and informed parents that the Troop only wore uniforms from the waist up. He picked who sat on the Troop Committee. (HWMBO was a Committee Member on paper for a number of years and never attended a meeting.) His idea of Scouting seemed to be about attending summer camp (Same week, same site, same camp) and anyone who was still around after the age of about 14 making Eagle. For all of his faults, he had a knack of getting along well with adults. The parents seemed to really like this guy. This was apparent by the number who would attend summer camp with the Troop, sometimes there were 36 Scouts and over 20 adults attending summer camp. OJ, at times did get very frustrated. He'd served on JLTC staff and never really got to put into practice the stuff he picked up there. I think in the end he knew that he liked the SM, because he was a nice man but used the Troop as a place to "Hang his hat" while he did the stuff that he wanted to do with the OA. and Camp Staff. The guy who replaced OJ's SM. Is very different. Into doing things a lot more by the book and the way that most people would say things should be done. But the parents don't seem to like him and the boys don't like him. The Troop is now on the ropes and I'm worried that it isn't going to be around for much longer. I have never had any problem with the fellow, but he just seems to have a way of rubbing people up he wrong way. I like to think that I'm good with kids (And dogs!)But much as I hate to admit it there have been Scouts who just didn't get along with me. Talking with Scouts who are now adults who did stick it out and didn't quit, they tell me that there were times when they felt I wasn't being fair and came across as being a little too pushy. They say that they would have quit if it hadn't been for the fact that their friends and pals were in the Troop and that even with me around they were having fun. They go on to say that after a while, other than the odd flare up when they wanted to punch my lights out! They sorta got used to what was going on and even if they didn't agree with what this was, they respected the time and effort I was putting in. I know that at times I can be a real pain, but the fact that these old Scouts are still in contact with me, some of them from over 30 years back! Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I'm even the God Father for a couple of their kids. Scouts and Scouting for me is all about relationships. I've seen Scouts remain in what I think is a terrible Troop which seems to offer nothing of any use. I really don't know why they just don't leave? I can only think it has something to do with relationships. Good luck to your son, I'm sure that his pals and him will have a great summer. Ea.

Twocubdad When it comes to the BSA budgets and financial statements that I've seen. They remind me very much of how OJ used to tidy up his room.- Not sure where something goes? Just stick it wherever it seems it might fit! One year when I was signing off on the District budgets for the coming year I went over the statements from the previous year. Even the stuff that should have been easy to decipher was wrong. There was one showing that we'd lost a large amount of money on Webelos Woods the previous year when we hadn't ran Webelos Woods for three years. Cub Scout Day Camp had been charged $1,500 for a water line? What that was ? No one seemed to know. It was such a mess with so many mistakes that I faxed 39 pages to the Council Treasurer. I never did sign off on the budgets for that year. No one seemed to notice or care. Life shouldn't be that hard. As volunteers, especially as volunteers that are volunteering to run events asking and having clear, honest and easy to understand information should just be a given. I'm OK with me donating some of my hard earned cash to something which I do believe does good. I however now refuse to do FOS presentations because I don't believe in the material and the numbers that are used. All of us know that a Council needs money. Many of us are willing to do what we see as our bit, but when we suspect that there is something fishy going on. - Even if there isn't. We tend to lose heart and really wonder if the good we hope we are doing, is indeed good? I'm not sure what fix is available? But I'd like to see SE's with more training in money management and for them to play a more active role of bringing money into the Councils that employ them. If this means that we have to rethink the roles that our DE's play, having them not be involved in program and learning more about fund raising, grant writing and dealing with business leaders. Then I'm all for it! - I don't think we need pay someone $40,000. a year to be at a Boy Scout Camp or run around looking for a Pinewood Derby track. We have volunteers to look after that type of stuff or failing that, there are lots of people who would do it for a lot less. Ea.

I have never served on the Council Camping Committee. I do know most of the people who do serve. They are all nice people who do have the best interests of the Scouts at heart. The Council Camping Committee in our Council isn't very big. There is a Chair. Four District Camping Chairs and one fellow who looks High Adventure.Along with a OA youth member. Over the years there have been improvements made to the camps. Some that are easy to see: New showers, buildings and a lake. Some that are not so easy to see but have cost a lot of money and a lot of hard work. Things like having the swimming pool sand-blasted and new water lines put in. After times passes it becomes easy not to see the improvements and I know that I could say that the camp hasn't changed that much since I first went there in 1977 as an International Camp Counselor. I don't remember what the camp fee was back in 1977, but when I brought a group of English Scouts over in 1981 even with the Out Of Council Surcharge we paid $25.00 a head. I think this year the cost is about $300.00 a head. There are a couple of guys on the Council Camping Committee that have served on that committee for almost that long. Looking at the Committee as an outsider, for a very long time it seemed to me that many of its members had a "Them and Us" idea of working. Them being he Council and Us being the Committee members representing the campers. I don't think the Committee ever really looked at any numbers or really knew what the cost of running the camp was. The District Camping Chairs. Would return to their Districts very proud, reporting that camp hadn't gone up or that the increase in the camp fee was only $5.00. To be fair to these guys, I should add that trying to find out the true cost of the camp was next to impossible. The accounting that was (Is?) used was a real mess. Camp Staff salary was bundled up with the number that was used for the entire Council Staff salary. There was no break down of costs. The electric number used was the number for both camps along with the Service Center. It was a real mess. Things came to a head about ten years ago. I'm not sure exactly what happened. I think it was a mix of things that just seemed to all line up all at one time. A new building ran way over budget, the SE wasn't very good with money and wasn't being honest with the Board and this came to light. Out of no where all of a sudden we (The Council Executive Board) were faced with the fact that we we over $250,000 in the red. The easy way out was to sell the primitive camp which is so primitive that it doesn't get a lot of use and other than a new Campmaster building hasn't been improved since it donated to the Council back in the 1960's. Some of us seen this as a bad move, being that the Council Summer Camp is in a State Park and there is always a chance that the State might opt to not renew our lease. As you might imagine there were a lot of meetings and at times things got heated. I got upset because the people who were on the Board at the time for the most part had never been to the camp that they were deciding on. The Camp was saved, by some financial juggling. But there was a new dawn of financial responsibility and accountability. Summer Camp and the cost was the first to be looked at. The following year Summer Camp seen the biggest increase ever. Along with changes that were supposed to either save money or make what was being spent more transparent. When people said anything about the cost, the standard answer seemed to be to take a look at what others were charging. Others being the YMCA, church camps and the like. The fact that Scout and Scout's families supported the Council with FOS and popcorn sales seemed to be cast aside and never mentioned. I think that I'm very fortunate, while I'm not wealthy. I can afford most of the things that I want to do or that my family might want to do. I also only have one child. The costs involved in Scouts and Scouting have never really been an obstacle. I have however at times thought that some things were just over priced. Someone mentioned paying $3,000 to attend the Jamboree. $3,000 is a lot of money. I don't know if it is a fair price or not? Our guys paid $1,800. A lot less than the $3,000. But we live about a four hour drive from the site. Leave and arrive the same day and come home on the day we depart. To me that just doesn't seem like a fair price. I paid it because that was what they charged. I had planned on both my son and I attending the World Jamboree in the UK. I could afford the $11,000 that it would have cost. I however failed to see why it cost so much? I just couldn't bring myself to spend that amount of money on something that so was overpriced. So we didn't attend. Maybe "Rip Off" Might be a little too strong a term to use? But more and more it seems that people are questioning the cost of everything, even Scouting events. No one expects a free ride, but everyone expects to only pay what is a fair price. Ea.