Eamonn

" walking away from something you've invested a lot of time and effort into is hard" A few years back in this forum I was moaning and groaning about how the District that I'd put so much into wasn't doing well and I wasn't sure what to do. A forum member sent me a PM saying that I needed to look at things very much like a house builder. The house builder puts all of his skill and his best effort into building the house. But when the house is completed and he is done. He hands it over and moves on. The house builder has no control and no say in what the house owner will do or not do. The house owner might make all sorts of changes, might not maintain the house or might make wonderful improvements. Still at the end of the day the builder can only look back and say that he gave it his best and his job is done. Ea.

About 27 years ago, HWMBO and yours truly were upstairs on a number 28 bus, heading down the Wandsworth Bridge Road, in London. (At that time smoking was permitted on the upper deck of London buses.) HWMBO was born and breed in the small American hamlet where we now live. She nearly fell off her seat when she seen a billboard advertising Fagots in Gravy. I think Tesco's were selling them frozen. I have never cooked them. I think at one time they were popular in the north of England and in Scotland. Here is a recipe: Ingredients: Serves 4 1 pigs liver - diced 1 pigs heart - diced 6 rashers streaky bacon - cut into strips 250g pork belly - diced 2 medium sized onions - peeled and sliced 1 egg 100g breadcrumbs 2 tsp of finely chopped fresh sage Salt and pepper to taste A large knob of butter 1. Melt the butter in a large heavy based oven proof pan, add half the sliced onion and cook over a moderate heat until the onions soften. 2. Gradually add all the meats, stir for a few minutes then add enough water to cover the ingredients, leave uncovered and put in the middle shelf of the oven at 190C for 50 minutes. 3. Remove from the oven, drain the liquid (to make the gravy), mince the meats and onion with the remaining onion, egg, breadcrumbs, 1 tsp of sage and salt and pepper, mix well and form into faggot sized balls. 4. Place the faggots into a greased baking tray and add enough of the reserved liquid to just cover the base of the tray. Cook for about 40 minutes at 200C on the middle shelf. 5. In the meantime use the rest of the reserved liquid to make some gravy. 6. Five minutes before the faggots are cooked add the gravy to the tray and cook on the stove getting as much of the meat juices into the liquid. 7. Serve whilst piping hot with mashed potatoes and peas pudding, garnish with the remaining sage. Sounds offal to me. I do use some terms at work, when I'm communicating with inmates that I would never use at home or when I'm around young people. For example at work I will very often tell someone or a group to "Stop screwing around." We can look up the word Screw and Google the means of it. Maybe I can try and defend myself by saying that I'm only talking about it in the context of wood working. But the truth is I know what I'm saying and more importantly is the person or group knows what I mean. I had a conversation with a group of African-American inmates, after one of them called the other the "N" word. I asked why it seemed OK for one of them to use it, but if I'd used it they would say I was a raciest? They didn't have a clear answer and seemed a little surprised when I asked them not to use it as it upset me. I do find it offensive, but I don't think anyone should re-write "Huckleberry Finn" and remove words that might offend. I wasn't around when Mark Twain wrote the book. I do know that Twain did at times come very close to the line. I'm unsure if the people of the time were offended? Times do change and the vocabulary changes with it. As part of my Queen's Scout Award I worked with handicapped children at the Cheyne Walk Center For Spastic Children. The center had a very long history, over time the word Spastic came into common speech and it is considered an offensive way to refer to the disabled. As a adult leader in the UK Scouts would use "Spaz" and "Spazmo" when name calling. A BBC survey in 2003, found that "spastic" was the second most offensive term in the UK relating to disability (retard was deemed most offensive). Eamonn

acco40, Not sure about "Dogs Breakfast" I use the term "Dogs Dinner" Normally related to a big pile of food that has been heaped on a plate with no sense of presentation. Kinda like some people heap leftovers in a dogs bowl. As for Bollocks. I have heard it used as a term for messing things up. As in "You made a real bollocks of that". But most times it is a mild swear word, much like we now use balls and is used in place of testicles. That's why back in the day there was such a fuss about the Sex Pistols album "Never Mind The Bollocks". Some people found it to be offensive. Ea.

" Sometimes I've asked for help from the District Chair or District Commissioner and I've never received a reply to those e-mails." The District I serve is in comparison to others not that big. While there are a few units up the mountain, most are huddled together in 3 small towns. Just about everyone knows where I live. The boats in the back yard might also be a bit of a give away? At the time I was serving as District Commissioner and later as District Chair. I knew each and every leader in the District. Some I liked more than others, some didn't like me. I was very lucky as District Commish in having a staff of 27 commissioners working with and for about 40 units. I like to think that I knew what was going on and who was who. Some over worked volunteers would at times come and tell me that they needed help. Other than telling them ways of going about selecting adults, there really wasn't very much that I could do. It wasn't like I had a waiting list of adults who were waiting to be asked to step up to the plate. Much as I hate to say it, some of these people were either so miserable or so stuck in their way of doing things that even if I'd had a waiting list, I would have thought twice before sending in any green volunteer. Once a unit went into the "Red" I would meet with the COR and or the CO. But most times things had gone too far and had been going on so long that saving the unit was next to impossible. While I hope that i would never be so rude as to ignore a letter or an email, I do think that I was guilty of all too often allowing what was being said to me to not sink in, but in my defense as long as there was a warm body willing to do the job, I was willing to let them. Eamonn.

Basementdweller, "A Scout Is Brave" When I spun off, I wasn't being brave. While everything I posted in the other thread is true. The real point was that it seemed to me that the time had come for you to choose what you wanted to do. My feeling is that the time to say Goodbye to the Pack should have happened some time back. I of course am not you and really, other than what you have posted here know nothing about you. Still the vibe I have got from your recent postings is that at times you seem very overwhelmed by it all. I wish you nothing but the very best. You have a good heart, please don't allow yourself to become so burnt out that Scouting loses a great leader. Ea.

I very often am asked about things that are said in England. The ones that seem to get the most attention are Fag meaning cigarette and asking to be knocked up early in the morning -Asking for a wake up call. Anyone who has read Tom Brown's School Days by Thomas Hughes will remember how the older boys in English Public Schools had younger boys who were expected to do tasks like polishing their shoes and the like. These young Lads were known as Fags. While nearly all the homosexual men I know seem to be OK being called Gay, one informed me that Fagot was way over the top. He said that the term came from the bundles of sticks that were used in the days when homosexuals were burnt alive. I don't know how true this is or isn't. There are times when I still talk "English" -Yes I still watch the telly and the dogs get their Tea at 1700 hours each night. (Please don't tell anyone but we have a little Time for our tea song which we sing). Even after more than a quarter of a century I still have my accent, I can't see me ever losing it. But I do think we need to take care not to use words or terms that even if used innocently offend others. Eamonn.

I'm very much with Buffalo Skipper. There is no time limit given. It doesn't say at least 20 days and 20 nights within a year. Scouts have a very long time to meet this requirement. So what's the rush? Ea.

In the District I serve we have a few people who seem to live in their Scout uniforms. A good many of these are deeply involved in both a Pack and a Troop. Many times they think that they are trying to save one unit or the other and sometimes both. They think if they walk away either the Pack will fold or if the Pack fails then not having a flow of Cub Scouts crossing over will cause the Troop to fail. In most cases in the area where I live, when this happens, both the Pack and the Troop are not that healthy too start with and the big problem does seem to be lack of adult leadership and adult support. Sad to say when I was a member of the District Key 3. I did little to help these units and while of course I was aware that there was a problem, I was happy to allow things to remain as they were for fear of maybe losing a unit or maybe two. Very often the people who were doing all this work, just didn't seem very happy. I think and of course I might be wrong! That they were spreading themselves too thin and were burnt out, doing what they were doing more out of some sense of obligation than anything else. The feeling of myself, the other members of the Key 3 and the parents of the youth in the units was very much that as long as someone was willing to carry the load, we all were happy to just let them. Very often these overworked people framed themselves as some sort of Scouting Martyrs. If I wasn't feeling depressed before I talked with them, I knew I was going to be after I had. It was little wonder that no one wanted to step in and work with them. They made being a Scouter seem like some kind of a penance and no fun at all. At our Commissioner Cabinet Meetings we used a color system to identify the health of the units. Green being good, yellow being needs help and red being in need of CPR. Meeting after meeting, month after month these units were in the "Yellow". But the feeling was that as long as So and So was there not only could our attention be on the Red Units, but there was an underlying feeling that any help offered would be rejected and seen as interference. A good number of these units survived for years, some for many years. But in most cases the program offered just wasn't that great. In part because the adults just were trying to do too much. There of course is no way of knowing what might happen to the units if these people had called it a day and decided to just work with either the Pack or the Troop and allowed whatever was going to happen, happen. From a District point of view. The unit would have moved from Yellow to Red and we would have been forced to do something. That isn't to say that something would have worked and the unit would have been saved or maybe even both units would have failed? As Scouts we promise to do our best. I'm not sure if when we take on too much that we are indeed really doing our best? My feeling is that Scouts and Scouting is something that I'm willing to do if it fits into the other important parts of my life. (Family, work and whatever first.) Then it needs to be something that I enjoy doing. I don't want to do it because I in any way feel it is something that I have to do. I sure as heck don't want to be involved in something that causes me to be miserable. When is the right time to walk away? Ea.

When Beavah states: "we really need to acknowledge in writing that these things require judgment" I couldn't agree more! Surely the aim of the guide is to ensure that we keep the kids in our charge as safe and as from from harm as we can. When it just comes down to us bashing each over the head with a bunch of words, no matter how well meaning the words might be. We are missing the point. I'm willing to always put my judgment about the well being of the Scouts in my charge ahead of any rule. The last thing I ever want is to see any child hurt or harmed in any way. I'm not saying that the guide is a bad thing. I'm just saying that there are times when common sense must prevail. Ea.

Living in downtown London, there really wasn't a need for a car. My first "Ride" was a 750 Norton in a BSA frame. Great bike much better than any Harley! I thought I was the cats whiskers when I bought my first real car. A used 1968 Ford Anglia. Then in an effort to be really cool and in with the in crowd I bought a brand new Morris Mini. First American car was a Mercury Cougar XR-7. Have been looking for a preowned Morgan, but haven't found one that isn't going for silly money. -One of these days! Ea.

I don't think that the Red Vest is part of the Cub Scout Uniform. I do think that the little guys look really great wearing them. I have seen a good many adult leaders who wear just about any and every patch that they lay their hands on, on the red wool jacket. Which is a no, no and ruled by policy. But the Red Vest is just like a Lad wearing his jacket. Having said that. I'd have no problem if a Lad wants to wear his vest to a Pack event such as a B&G. I might however have a slight problem with something like a Flag Retirement or where the Cub Scouts are in the public eye. I kinda like the idea of them being uniform in uniform, so if everyone was wearing them, I'd be OK if it was just one Lad? Maybe not. Putting policy aside. I think most times it's just best to do what the person in charge of the event wants to go with. We don't want to make mountains out of mole hills. For me? This shouldn't be a big deal. Ea.

"The message I'm getting is that it's probably a good thing these messages are typed" I agree my Hieroglyphics are unreadable. Ea

It's a sad, sad, mad, mad world. If the police are involved, I'd be happy for them to do whatever they feels needs to be done or not done. If anyone involved wants to take it further and involve their own lawyers? That's their choice. I'd most definitely want to inform the CO and the SE about what happened. I'd also call a leaders meeting and explain to them how the media will be managed if the media does get involved. The SE can advise the best way about going about this. Maybe now is a good time to take a long hard look at how the entire Pine Wood Derby is managed. Are the rules clear? Is who ever in charge of checking in the cars the right person for the job? Should there be more than one person at the check in? A long hard honest look might help prevent future mishaps. We had one District who got so fed up with all of the nonsense that they decided just not to have a District event anymore. The really hard part will of course be trying to explain this all to the Cub Scouts. I don't think I'd want to tackle this head on, but I'd look for subtle ways of getting the message across. While of course I wasn't there. Sometimes these type of occurrences have a way of getting blown out of all proportion. Recently one of my coworkers was accused of "Assaulting an inmate". It turns out that the inmate went to pick up something that he really wasn't supposed to and she gave his a little slap on the back of the hand. Much as any mother might do without thinking. She was of course in the wrong. The inmate, being an inmate of course wanted to make as big a deal as possible of it all. In the end bringing them both together and having both state their case brought the entire thing to an end. Maybe if the two people involved in this episode got together and went over it all and maybe apologized? This would soon be water under the bridge. Ea.

There are times when I'd like to stick the G2SS where the sun never shines. Eamonn.

Not to high-jack the thread But... Threads in this forum do seem to have a way of ... Shall we say meandering and taking on a life of their own. I tend to look at much like a group standing around a camp-fire. Someone starts a conversation about oatmeal and in next to no time the conversation is about the mating habits of the black widow spider. I don't know why? It just kinda happens. In an effort to kinda sorta get back on track. I got some very strange looks when I wore my uniform with 4 beads when I was visiting Gilwell Park. My English Scouter friends thought wearing 4 beads was "Over the top". I'm proud of my beads and wear them with pride. While there are exceptions to almost every rule. I haven't met anyone who has the fourth bead who hasn't learned that these beads are more about service to others than anything else. The link I posted does I think give a nice outline of the history about how the beads came to be. There was a time in the UK when Scouter's who were trained but hadn't taken Wood Badge wore a little patch above one of the shirt breast pockets with one bead. It became affectionately known as the "Peanut Badge". There are some Wood Badge regalia myths that I have heard of but have never really taken the time to check out. Such as the leather that went into making the woggle used to come from the drive belts of Singer Sewing Machines? I don't know how true this one is. Then there is the MacLaren tartan. Some say that anyone completing Wood Badge is allowed to wear this tartan and claim membership of the MacLaren clan? I know when I attended the Wood Badge reunion at Gilwell Park, there seemed to be more than a fair share of big beefy guys with beards wearing kilts with the tartan. So much so that one year I wore my Irish kilt with the County Meath tartan. Of course I'm a skinny little fellow with matchstick legs (But very sexy knees!) And don't have a beard, so I just looked silly. Ea.

Over the years I know that I've become very lazy. In the past as soon as Thanksgiving was over, I'd make a start on my Christmas Letters. No small task as my Mother was one of eight and my Dad one of seven, most of whom went on to have at least three or more children of their own. (We had 650 at our wedding. HWMBO and her family made up ten of the guest list!) I'd set up shop at the kitchen table, pens, paper and ample supply of coffee at hand and start my writings. While I did my best to personalize each and every letter, I couldn't help but too keep repeating the same stories about what had gone on over the past year. There were times when I'd get behind and knew that I'd missed the deadline to get these letters to their overseas destination in time for the holiday. So even though I know it's kind of yucky I went for the form letter. Now I write one letter print it and it goes in the Christmas card with maybe a little note as well. I keep in touch with most of my family, friends mainly via email. I still however do still hand-write Thank You notes. I don't seem to write as many as I used to. Back when I was serving as District Chairman, it seemed that I was sending about half a dozen every week, lately this seems to have dwindled down to about a dozen a year - Must be that I have less to be thankful for. I have tried to install the idea of sending thank you notes into my son, but it looks right now as if this is a losing battle. He just doesn't seem to see the point of it. About ten or twelve years back I was really shocked when a friend of mine who teaches in our local high school informed me that he didn't accept hand written homework assignments. I remembered how when I was a Lad we not only had to hand write these but they had to be done in ink, no Biro's allowed. Then later when I was teaching the messy papers that looked like the cat had got at, which I was supposed to mark and make some kind of sense of. Yesterday I finished reading my first book ever on the Kindle I got for Christmas. I was certain that I would never get used to reading this way. But it worked out OK, in fact I think I maybe finished the book I was reading faster than I might have if it had been a "Real Book". Even an old dog like me can learn to change. Ea.

A few thoughts, not in any real order. 1/Who are we aiming at? Sure it's for the boys, but most times the "Notice" be it a letter, email or whatever is sent to the adult leader, if he or she doesn't buy into it then we are lost before we start. 2/ It's hard to keep selling the same old same old. A co-worker went to see his nephew be tapped out at summer camp this past summer. His comment was "Camp Conestoga hasn't changed a bit since I went up there as a Scout" It's hard to sell something that doesn't change. Maybe that's why there isn't a lot of ads for boot polish? 3/ All to often we are afraid to spend money or the money just isn't there. In an effort to recruit Tiger Cubs I thought that a kite day would be a good idea. The kites cost about $3.50 for each kit. I requested $100.00 from the Council to buy kites. When they finished laughing they said that I should find someone to donate the kites or the money to buy the kites or have the parents buy the kit. Being as I was going to hit the parents for the membership fee and give details about uniforms. Adding yet another cost just didn't seem right. In the end the District Chairman and I went 50/50 and bought the kites. 3/ We need to take a look at what works and what doesn't. Each year our District holds a Klondike Derby. Most years there isn't any snow, just lots of mud. The events never seem to change: Make a stretcher from a blanket, light a fire to burn through a string. I think we re-cycle these same old same olds because they are easy and require little imagination and even less preparation. But no one can ever say that we aren't delivering what we promised! I wonder if at times we are afraid that new ideas or thinking out of the box will somehow make us seem a little "Scouty" ? Maybe what I'm trying to get at is that while the 3 "W's" are important when it comes to marketing the most important is the What and maybe if the What just isn't good enough, we might be better off not trying to sell it? 4/ One sure way to get Scouts at an event is to have their leaders actively involved in the event. This is never going to happen if we keep falling back on the same people who do everything all the time. 5/ Districts and Councils need to take care that they are not over doing events and need to leave times for units to do things as units. Ea.

ScoutBox, You might find the following link interesting: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs145001.pdf Ea.

jblake47 There are times when a not so friendly kick in the pants does each of us the world of good. Having gone through Catholic Schools across the big pond, I know. But there are some people who have never learned that at times if you can't say something nice, it's better to just keep quiet. I don't like my Brother-In-Law. I think he is a self-opinionated twit. I get really peeved hearing "If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German" (Us being the Americans.) When it comes to cars: On my Ford Explorer. He has:Friends don't let friends drive Fords. My little Mercedes: Them German cars aren't that great! HWMBO Lexus is a "Rice Burner". The list is endless. He just doesn't seem able to say anything nice about anything or anyone. Worse still is the fact that 99.9% of the time he has no idea what he is talking about. I'm almost certain that the words "I don't know." have never crossed his lips. Sadly we have a group of people who aren't happy unless they are spreading their brand of doom and gloom around serving as volunteers in the Council I serve. Nothing ever seems to be right and they not only find fault in anything and everything but seem to enjoy dwelling on what they see as being not right. Sometimes of course they are right, but because it comes from them, no one takes any real heed or notice. This of course pleases them to no end as they can then add to their monologue "I told you so." What really gets me is that some of these guys have great hearts and if your willing to put up with the moans and groans you find that they will do anything that you ask. Ea.

As District Chairman I have sat in on two of these dinner meetings with people who are under consideration for a DE spot and a Field Director spot Both times the person got the job and both times I felt that me being there was more window dressing than anything else. The DE who was hired was not married, so of course he came alone. The FD was married and had four or five very young children so I never met his wife. If I were a betting man I'd say that the odds look good. Ea.

"How much time was spent cooking meals and clearing up each day?": " About two hours if memory serves me correctly." " In total, probably about 2 hours a day. Sometimes the cooking was part of the lessons." "Hard to recall exactly (40 years ago), but 2 hours might be right." "A couple of hours. We cooked all our meals on fires, but used propane stoves to heat dishwater." " About 2 hours total." " I don't remember, but since we were cooking on Backpack stoves probably not more than 2-3 hours since you only "cooked" breakfast and dinner." Wow! Seems that I remember waiting a lot longer than 2 hours each day for a participant Patrol Member to come to the staff site and "Invite" staff members to join them in a meal. You all must eat really fast! 3 meals a day, cooked, eaten and the clear up done in two hours? One of the big complaints I hear about the 21st Century course is that it doesn't teach practical skills. From what has been posted here, it would also seem that a good many of the participants had no need of learning these skills, as they already had them. Does it matter if you learn or obtain these skills before the course or after the course? When I look at what is being covered at the 21st Century course. A lot of what is in the 11 Leadership Skills is not that different. Ea.

OK, maybe more than one question. 1/ How skilled in Scout-Craft were you before you took the course? 2/ What skills did you learn on /from the course 3/How much time was spent cooking meals and clearing up each day? Eamonn

My first reaction when I read this was I was upset. I just fail to understand why anyone who is unwilling to do the job that they signed up to do, doesn't do it. Then I thought about it for a minute and I thought maybe, just maybe there might be a reason for this? Maybe the SM has some sort of illness? Maybe he can't find another adult to go to camp? I don't know. If I were the parent of a Lad in this Troop, I would do my best to find out what is really going on. If there isn't another adult available to attend camp outs, why? My first port of call would be the SM. I would approach him (Her?) in a very nice way and in no way come off sounding threatening and ask what's going on? I of course don't know this SM. But my feeling is that he is either totally overwhelmed or he is a real twit. If he is overwhelmed I would do my best to find ways to help him. Help with selecting adults who can lighten his load. Maybe help with the planning and paper work, maybe offering to be the adult that tags along? If the reason why there isn't enough help is because he is a twit. Then maybe it's time to take this to the Troop Committee. Or a parent it's time to look for a Troop that is a better fit. Ea.

I'm 100% with what RememberSchiff posted. Ea.

Sorry SR540Beaver When you post: "I know her well as we were fellow Troop Guides on a WB course together and she was a great choice for SB" It does kinda sound like you might be nearing membership in the good old boys Club. I think and I might be wrong? That most groups, not just Scouting have a group within the group that tends to gets things done. While I don't think anyone sets out to be a "Member". It seems that they get drawn in. As more people get to know them, more people ask them to do things, which of course means more exposure and more people asking. Are there a few self-promoting egotistical twits out there? Sure, of course there are. I've met them in Scouting, in my church and in other organizations along the way. For the most part they are harmless and do more good than harm. Nearly all the members of the Card holding good old boys Club in the Council which I serve are not in any way kiss-ups of any kind. In fact most are very passionate about what they do and who they do it all for. While thankfully they might at times have a hard time saying "No." They are most definitely not known for suffering in silence. Ea.